How much constitutes hoarding?

[The Heretic]

I am less concerned about greed than I am about things like fraud and negligent harm.

When someone takes a shortcut and puts and adulterant in a drug or food or cosmetic that makes people sick or even kills them (or their pet) - then that is not capitalism (although the motivation is greed - maybe at best, negligence).

Or someone cuts a corner to make more profit and leaves something out of the drug, or sells fake drugs - again, probably motivated by greed.

Or a corporate entity pollutes the environment near one of their manufacturing plants by dumping their waste onto land, or worse, into the water supply, or the air. Again, probably greed, at best negligence.

Or a corporation lobbies the gov to allow them to pollute, or cut corners on safety, or bribes the gov to approve a drug that isn't safe, or doesn't tell the gov about some lab result that shows a drug is unsafe.

These are all examples of fraud/negligence/harm motivated by greed, and not hypothetical either - all these things have happened, continue to happen every day.

This is why there needs to be laws controlling the market - this is what uncontrolled capitalism does and the 'market' doesn't control this, because this is hidden from the market, or the market forgets, and the perpetrators move on to another corp entity and repeat what they did before.

That kind of greed does need to be controlled - to be punished, severely - so that those who do these things know they risk more than inconvenience.

 

[Alexx1401]

pretty much the definition of greed isnt it? Your sons life shouldn't be based on funding some CEOs 3rd yact... there shouldnt be a pricetag on human life.

The only solution is to let the Government invent these wonder drugs then. Next time you are able to stand in line at the DMV look at the people there "serving you" and picture them in charge of trying to invent anything. Price of wonder drugs sucks. Solution? Have no wonder drugs and everyone is happy? The only reason these drugs come to be is people could make money by inventing them. In a perfect world we would have teams of really smart people researching these and coming up with them at cost. Sadly that's never going to happen.

 

[Alexx1401]

Yet I think most advocating for social justice here lose that point entirely. Free markets and profit incentive make it available.

Yep, that is why Socilism, or Communism in whatever flavor people want to try never has worked and never will. Take away the incentive and few will bother to try. Before all these wonder drugs people like me just died. No one seemed to care, it was the breaks. Someone spent a buttload of money to invent a cure, they want to make a buttload of money off the work. All of a sudden people are mad. <shrug>

 

[2A2Dend]

I HATE Politics, for lack of morals.

 

[OldBroad44]

Most monopolies are created or supported by the fact that companies pay huge amounts to politicos and basically own most of them these days. When they pay politicos to create laws all in their favor so that they can charge more than an ordinary profit for drugs they didnt even invent, this is rent seeking. Rent seeking is a flaw and failure of capitalism/societies. When it gets too bad, either the laws must be changed to reign it in, or the whole social structure breaks down. People are dying now because they cant afford ordinary drugs that cost a fraction of current prices a few years ago. Drugs bought up by companies for the sole purpose of cornering the market and raising the price. Ie rent seeking. That used to be legal in the stock market. Now it isnt. Maybe its time to change the laws so it isnt legal in the drug business either.

 

[MannyGlocks]

marxism once again rears it's ugly head...

Some say "well, sure Capitalism is great", until I want...then it's out the window you go Capitalism and marxism is 'the' way and the only way....

 

[OldBroad44]

Yep, that is why Socilism, or Communism in whatever flavor people want to try never has worked and never will. Take away the incentive and few will bother to try. Before all these wonder drugs people like me just died. No one seemed to care, it was the breaks. Someone spent a buttload of money to invent a cure, they want to make a buttload of money off the work. All of a sudden people are mad. <shrug>

No. People are generally not angry when someone makes a lot of money for inventing something or providing some other social benefit. They rightfully resent those who have figured out how to get rich while providing only a social harm.

Drug companies these days are increasingly charging what the market will bear. But they often have simply bought up competitors so as to create an artificial monopoly, then jacked up prices. This is rent seeking, making money by providing no social benefit and only a social harm. Societies collapse when they allow too much rent seeking.

It's supporting laws that drug companies have bought that allow them to exploit and abuse us. For example, the drugs cost way less in other countries. Our laws dont allow americans or american hospitals to buy from other countries. It isn't legit capitalism for powerful companies to get laws passed that make it impossible to buy from competitors. It's rent seeking. Its been going on a while. But lately drug companies are increasingly using what the market will bear pricing. Usually, societies look the other way over rent seeking that is minor or non obvious. Or that doesnt involve life or death. But our drug companies have decided to raise prices so high that people increasingly cant afford the drugs. They have become so arrogant that they think it is smart to rent seek in ways that are huge, blatant, and obvious, and that do involve life and death.

Our drug prices are now so high that no matter the format, our health care won't work and wont be affordable. Just a single change would make big difference. We need to be allowed to buy drugs from any drug company in any country.

 

[CLT65]

I do believe that capitalism is the best economic system, due to the fact that it is most compatible with basic human nature, but it's not a religion. I don't worship at the alter of capitalism. Some people treat it as heresy if you question unrestrained capitalism. Capitalism is far and away better than Marxism, but that doesn't mean that it has no flaws.

It's a bit like democracy. Pure democracy is a terrible system. The U.S. is a Constitutional Republic, democracy restrained with checks and balances. In a pure democracy, 51% can make slaves of the other 49%. That's why we have our system of checks and balances.

Pure, unrestrained capitalism can be pretty bad too. The patent system is one type of restraint. Anti-trust laws are another. Monopolies hinder the competition that allows capitalism to thrive. We already have plenty of checks on pure capitalism, and that's not necessarily a bad thing, in my opinion. To what degree to we need more checks and controls? I don't know. That's for greater minds than mine. I don't claim to know anything.

 

[Koda]

Yep, that is why Socilism, or Communism in whatever flavor people want to try never has worked and never will. Take away the incentive and few will bother to try. Before all these wonder drugs people like me just died. No one seemed to care, it was the breaks. Someone spent a buttload of money to invent a cure, they want to make a buttload of money off the work. All of a sudden people are mad. <shrug>

Necessity is the mother of invention. There is no reason why there would be a lack of incentive to research new drugs or medical procedures to save lives, just ask any doctor or drug developer who's lost a loved one to cancer. I'm all for capitalism in all things but American pharmaceuticals has proven their greed in profiting from peoples lives. Privatized healthcare puts a price tag on human life, there is no reason why a life saving drug should cost $5K a month. I could never afford that.

 

[CLT65]

Just to clarify, when I was laid off years ago, the drug company had a program for people who couldn't afford it at all, and it cost us almost nothing. Even now it doesn't cost us $5k/month, just for the first month to meet our high deductible.

 

[OldBroad44]

The only solution is to let the Government invent these wonder drugs then. Next time you are able to stand in line at the DMV look at the people there "serving you" and picture them in charge of trying to invent anything. Price of wonder drugs sucks. Solution? Have no wonder drugs and everyone is happy? The only reason these drugs come to be is people could make money by inventing them. In a perfect world we would have teams of really smart people researching these and coming up with them at cost. Sadly that's never going to happen.

Actually, a lot of the drugs are developed in university labs at taxpayer expense. Up until 1980, the info/tech developed by unis was either released as public domain or belonged to the government that licensed it. Now universities are allowed to own the ip on anything their employees do, even though it was taxpayer funded. The unis usually grant exclusive licenses to drug companies. So before 1980, we did have a whole lot of smart people coming up with drugs and other inventions based largely on social needs.

Now that universities are allowed to own IP on all their researchers do, even though it was funded through government grants, everything has changed. Every university has a huge IP department. Universities now have pretty much the same priorities as corporations. The profs are promoted and paid based on the profitable IP licenses they have developed.

What is profitable in medicine and what is in the public interest are often quite different. It isnt in the best interest of drug companies to cure disease. Its in their best interest to produce drugs that allow people to live decent lives but only by taking their drugs. Thats why drug companies refuse to work on vaccines. Fair enough. But thats why we supported university researchers at taxpayer expense--to do the science that is needed by society but doesnt fit into the profit motive. Now, because of the law in 1980 that allowed unis to have ip on taxpayer supported science, there is increasingly no science in the pubic interest. We need to repeal that law and restore taxpayer funded research to being genuinely in the public interest.

 

[Natty Bumpo]

How MUCH of a thing constitutes hoarding?

Whatever our Government decides, of course, with or without supporting legislation, and with or without due process for enforcement and redress of grievances.

That definition, mind you, must remain "fluid" and "adaptable" (namely, arbitrary and capricious) to the times and to the circumstances, just like the Second Amendment, eh?

But we already knew that, didn't we?

 

[Alexx1401]

Actually, a lot of the drugs are developed in university labs at taxpayer expense. Up until 1980, the info/tech developed by unis was either released as public domain or belonged to the government that licensed it. Now universities are allowed to own the ip on anything their employees do, even though it was taxpayer funded. The unis usually grant exclusive licenses to drug companies. So before 1980, we did have a whole lot of smart people coming up with drugs and other inventions based largely on social needs.

Great, that voters can do something about. That is not what I am talking about and I don't know if anyone else was. The drug that gave me a second shot at life had zero to do with any university. It was done by a Co. I was called a couple of times to be looked at for a paid experiment since it was known I had the disease. In the early years of research they needed human trials. I was screened out on one due to them worried the cure would kill me before curing me. Later by the time they had a better one I was accepted but had to be willing to live in a quarantined setting to do a double blind study. I signed up but after taking the time off work it got delayed. Both of these were offering me money. The first one that was them working on a cure paid quite a bit of money to take the cure. All this lead to them finally coming up with a very good safe cure. No tax payers paid any of this. Investors in a co did. Now they want to make money back so the drugs are super expensive. So many now want the drug free. This is what I am talking about. The solution is to not have the drugs and let people die.
Everyone wants these miracle drugs, and they want them with someone else paying for them. Sounds great but we have to live in the real world.

 

[wired]

Ive got a hundred pounds of flour. A pound of which just went into a pizza. 200 lbs of rice that I am sure will get used some day. I have 25 THOUSAND rounds of ammo that I am sure I will shoot some day. 178 rolls of toilet paper I believe will clean my butt some day.

Nope. I'm not hoarding.

 

[OldBroad44]

Great, that voters can do something about. That is not what I am talking about and I don't know if anyone else was. The drug that gave me a second shot at life had zero to do with any university. It was done by a Co. I was called a couple of times to be looked at for a paid experiment since it was known I had the disease. In the early years of research they needed human trials. I was screened out on one due to them worried the cure would kill me before curing me. Later by the time they had a better one I was accepted but had to be willing to live in a quarantined setting to do a double blind study. I signed up but after taking the time off work it got delayed. Both of these were offering me money. The first one that was them working on a cure paid quite a bit of money to take the cure. All this lead to them finally coming up with a very good safe cure. No tax payers paid any of this. Investors in a co did. Now they want to make money back so the drugs are super expensive. So many now want the drug free. This is what I am talking about. The solution is to not have the drugs and let people die.
Everyone wants these miracle drugs, and they want them with someone else paying for them. Sounds great but we have to live in the real world.

Normally universities do the first 90% of the work. Nearly everything long term. Drug companies usually step in after the basics are worked out. Yes they usually do the clinical trials, the last step, the part you see.

 

[Alexx1401]

Ive got a hundred pounds of flour. A pound of which just went into a pizza. 200 lbs of rice that I am sure will get used some day. I have 25 THOUSAND rounds of ammo that I am sure I will shoot some day. 178 rolls of toilet paper I believe will clean my butt some day.

Nope. I'm not hoarding.

A LOT of people keep a stock of dry goods, very smart to do so. This latest panic showed people what can happen. We have always done it for prep for a big shake we keep hearing may happen. Since I am too lazy to bake we keep a good supply of that survival food that lasts decades. Probably will never eat it but nice to know its there. TP we had a good pile for same reason. Wife did a few times ask why I kept so much. She is glad now. Ammo now that I have long tried to get people to wake up to no avail. Keep 20K of .22 ammo that when they finally open the range again I will be using weekly again. As I use it I will keep replacing it as that I don not roll.
I suspect few will learn anything from this latest great panic. When something sets off another they will again be mad <shrug>

 

[OldBroad44]

I dont call it hoarding when people who think they are will be safer staying at home for a month or two go out and try to buy a month or two's worth of supplies. It's only sensible. The only thing they have done "wrong", in my opinion, is not having stashed an emergency supply of essentials before the emergency.

 

[bikemutt]

Normally universities do the first 90% of the work. Nearly everything long term. Drug companies usually step in after the basics are worked out. Yes they usually do the clinical trials, the last step, the part you see.

Do you have a reliable citation to support this claim?

Nothing I've found even comes close.

 

[ma96782]

If the real problem is actually Shortages.....
Consider how it's the CHINESE fault (or maybe it's just that they are better businessmen)?

Aloha, Mark

 

[RicInOR]

Big pharma is a scam and they are in the business of keeping people sick and not curing them - their profit shares would go way down if the my actually helped people.

+1