How I turned the WA AG into a repository for 3D printed gun files...

[awshoot]

Unlikely that they'd even go there. ...

A file or blueprint does not meet any definition of firearm in this state. ...

Let me draw your attention to this piece of legislation that only has to make it through the senate at this point (Inslee will sign): Washington State Legislature

NEW SECTION. Sec. 2. (1) No person may knowingly or recklessly allow, facilitate, aid, or abet the manufacture or assembly of an undetectable firearm or untraceable firearm by a person who: (a) Is ineligible under state or federal law to possess a firearm; or (b) has signed a valid voluntary waiver of firearm rights that has not been revoked under RCW 9.41.350. For purposes of this provision, the failure to conduct a background check as provided in RCW 9.41.113 shall be prima facie evidence of recklessness.
(2) Any person violating this section is guilty of a gross misdemeanor punishable under chapter 9A.20 RCW. If a person previously has been found guilty under this section, then the person is guilty of a class C felony punishable under chapter 9A.20 RCW for each subsequent knowing violation of this section. A person is guilty of a separate offense for each and every firearm to which this section applies.

Be very careful. They aren't calling the file a firearm and there's an enormously large chance this will be the law come July 1, 2019. I think the way it would work would be: if you aided a prohibited person to create a firearm (provide a file (metal or digital), instruction, parts, etc. etc.) and that person made an illegal firearm with that knowledge and/or physical thing, authorities would have to become aware of the illegally possessed firearm and your help, and then come after you. I could be wrong on that though, so really, be careful.

There is of course a big 1A argument to be made (provided you have $500k or so to make it).

 

[Open_Wire]

Let me draw your attention to this piece of legislation that only has to make it through the senate at this point (Inslee will sign): Washington State Legislature



Be very careful. They aren't calling the file a firearm and there's an enormously large chance this will be the law come July 1, 2019. I think the way it would work would be, if you aided a prohibited person to create a firearm (provide a file (metal or digital), instruction, parts, etc. etc.) and that person made an illegal firearm with that knowledge, authorities would have to become aware of the illegally possessed firearm and your help, and then come after you. I could be wrong on that though, so really, be careful.

KNOWINGLY aid a prohibited person, and that isn't law yet.

I'll say it again. Instead of inventing fringe scenarios where this is a horrible thing that will never work, file the records request to see what happens .

At this point I am starting to think there is a demand for unverifiable paranoia over actual results .

 

[awshoot]

KNOWINGLY aid a prohibited person, and that isn't law yet.

I'll say it again. Instead of inventing fringe scenarios where this is a horrible thing that will never work, file the records request to see what happens .

At this point I am starting to think there is a demand for unverifiable paranoia over actual results .

You forgot "recklessly" -- did you perform a background check on everyone you gave the file to?

Obviously this would apply to even gunsmithing books but Furgeson has already expressed his willingness to attack the 1A with respect to Defense Distributed. Anyway -- this piece of legislation is a big deal and it hasn't been getting much attention.

 

[Open_Wire]

Good Christ. I can't imagine living so afraid .

Fine. You win. FERGUSON IS COMING DOOR TO DOOR FOR OUR BOOKS AND WILL PUT US IN DEATH CAMPS. RUN FOR THE HILLS!!!1!

 

[awshoot]

I don't know about the books yet, but he is coming for the digital files. I went to watch the argument in the DD case last summer in Seattle, and left some notes on it here: Washington - Oral Argument in the States AGs' fight against the 1A (8-21-18)

The last post in that thread is a link to the oral argument. At the 2:00 minute mark, the AAG uses the phrase "untraceable and undetectable firearms" -- he had barely even started his statements (some time is used up on introductions) before he was bringing this up. The legislation I referenced above:

By House Civil Rights & Judiciary (originally sponsored by Representatives Valdez, Dolan, Kilduff, Pollet, Bergquist, Frame, Jinkins, Kloba, and Macri; by request of Attorney General)
READ FIRST TIME 02/13/19.

AN ACT Relating to firearms that are undetectable or untraceable; amending RCW 9.41.010, 9.41.190, and 9.41.220; reenacting and amending RCW 9.94A.515; creating a new section; prescribing penalties; providing an effective date; and declaring an emergency.

I don't think it is any sort of stretch or foilhattery to suggest that Furgeson has a serious beef about digital files and this law he is working through Olympia is a prime example of that. I suggest prudence post July 1 should this law pass.

Edit: at least the substitue bill isn't as bad as the first version which would likely have banned any firearm, commercial or not, that didn't have a serial number on both the frame and slide/cylinder or for rifles, the receiver and barrel (which is most firearms).

 

[Open_Wire]

The stretch has been the weird speculating about maybe what if could perhaps omg doom.

 

[awshoot]

The stretch has been the weird speculating about maybe what if could perhaps omg doom.

I'm not trying to get into an argument with you. I think the direct evidence you can independently view such as the raw oral arguments (no commentary, no spin, just the raw tape), the text of the proposed law (again no commentary, no spin, just unedited text) supports the view that Furgeson is coming for your files. Read and watch for yourself, draw your own conclusions. My conclusion is that people sharing these files, if that law passes, should probably either A) not do it, or B) have a big bank account, the patience to go to the Supreme Court, and the balls to do the time if they don't win. You don't have to agree with me -- your conclusion might differ from mine and that's cool, but you should come to that conclusion after evaluating the evidence, not from a gut reaction.

 

[Open_Wire]

I'm sure he's trying to go that way, but some of the commentary in this thread crosses over into tinfoil land.

 

[awshoot]

I'm sure he's trying to go that way, but some of the commentary in this thread crosses over into tinfoil land.

Perhaps, but the person you were responding to said:

I predict the AG's office will claim that the file is equivalent to a firearm and that you have to do a NICS transfer when they give it to you. Then they wait for you to take them to court over that issue.

Now, I agree with you that they aren't going to call the files "firearms", but the section of HB 1739 I quoted above shows how they don't have to do that to get to roughly the same place. Instead of prosecuting a person for merely possessing the files, they prosecute for sharing the files with a prohibited person without doing a background check.

In this way they can avoid the pesky 1A issue of a prior restraint on speech (which they would likely lose), argue there is a compelling state interest in keeping firearms, especially undetectable and untraceable firearms, out of the hands of prohibited people, and that requiring background checks for the sharing of such files is substantially related to that objective. If they can get intermediate scrutiny on the question, it would likely carry them over the goal line. It might even pass strict scrutiny if they could argue that keeping prohibited persons from having firearms is a compelling state interest and the law in question is directly targeted to achieve that interest. See here: Challenging Laws: 3 Levels of Scrutiny Explained

It is in fact, way more clever and pernicious than calling the files "firearms". I feel like the original poster was on the right track, but that it is actually even worse because it is a cynical attack on the Bill of Rights rather than merely playing with definitions.

 

[tiggers97]

I have cad files of guns and parts

Tried to PM you, but I cannot seem to do so...

 

[WasrNwarpaint]

Tried to PM you, but I cannot seem to do so...

check your PM's

 

[bentoncity]

AGO website won't let me open the FOI request form in it's MS Word format. Just locks ups. Tried 3 times and yes I'm tech savy. Sent a request to my state reps asking to mandate all govt. docs be PDF and fillable online if they're forms. Suggest everyone else do the same.
FWIW, I'm going to follow up on the FOI & see where it leads. If ferguson releases it, he's in violation of the law. If he doesn't, he's in violation of the law. Hmm

Dan

 

[tiggers97]

Oregon just plopped down their iwn version (SB978). May have to try the same!

 

[bentoncity]

Take a gander @ this bill...Tracking House Bill 3223 in the Oregon Legislature
& this one...Tracking Senate Bill 925 in the Oregon Legislature
Both were introduced on March 6, 2019

AHHNNND BTW, I got the FOI request form, converted it to a fillable PDF and sent it off to the ATG office just now. I'll let you know what happens..


Dan

 

[tiggers97]

Take a gander @ this bill...Tracking House Bill 3223 in the Oregon Legislature
& this one...Tracking Senate Bill 925 in the Oregon Legislature
Both were introduced on March 6, 2019

AHHNNND BTW, I got the FOI request form, converted it to a fillable PDF and sent it off to the ATG office just now. I'll let you know what happens..


Dan

Oregon SB978 just went from a one page, one paragraph bill, to a 44 page amendment. Including "banning downloadable guns". I think they just accept PDF as testimony, and not a "Data blob" though.

 

[bentoncity]

No response from fergys' office on my foi request as of today..

Dan

 

[bentoncity]

No response from fergys' office on my foi request as of today..

Dan

UPDATE: FOI Request (PRR-2019-0276)
Mr. Deckert –
Thank you for your public records request; it has been assigned the above file number and we ask that you please reference that number on any future correspondence regarding this request. You requested the following:

I would like the email sent to your office on March 19, 2019 with the subject 3d Gun printing including an attachment named product-16116.zip I look forward to receiving the message and attachments from your office.

I estimate that it will take until April 12, 2019, to determine the location, nature and amount of records, if any, that may be responsive to your request. If records are ready prior to that time, I will notify you. If this time assessment requires adjustment, I will also advise you of that.

After the location, nature and amount of records has been determined, I will provide you with further estimate of the time necessary to gather the records, if any, for inspection and/or copying.

Please contact me at the below email address or at Office of the Attorney General, Public Records & Constituent Services, P.O. Box 40100, Olympia, WA 98504-0100, if you have any questions. Thank you.

LaDona Jensen
Director of Public Records
& Constituent Services
(360) 586-2533
[email protected]

 

[bentoncity]

Follow up..Nary word one from .. so had to write and ask why... I'll push until I have an answer. Thy're obligated by LAW and darn well had better answer..

Dan

Ms. Jenson;
Any scenario below should I presume to use since I have no response from you as you so stated you would?

1. You lied
2. You've falsified an estimated response date
3. You're incapable of doing your job
4. You could care less about any FOI requests
5. You're deceased
6. You've contracted a terminal disease & are undergoing treatment that's rendered you incapable
7. You're out of the office until ....?
8. Your computer crashed
9. The entire network crashed
10. The entire network was wiped out
11. Your request was lost
12. Aliens attacked
13. Immigrants attacked
14. You had a cold
15. You were passed out due to overwork
16. You have no idea how to get the info
17. Blah blah blah

I don't know how you or your office works (which now appears to be a joke on tax payer dollars) but when I tell someone I'll provide something on a given date, I either provide it or let them know why I haven't or can't. I sure as hell don't leave the individual hanging & wondering ....

Where's the information I requested? You have the COMPLETED legal form your office provided with a complete and specifically full request outlined by date, title and content. What seems to be the issue wherein you have failed to provide the FOI info I requested per (PRR-2019-0276) as you requested in a timely manner? One would sincerely hope this matter needs not be escalated to my elected representatives, the state AG office nor the courts to receive an answer to my clear & legally outlined FOI request.

I find it rather suspicious that a 30 or 60 second query on a set of SPECIFIC records on a SPECIFIC DATE would require a week or more to locate within a data base.

I cherish honesty above everything when dealing with my elected officials or state employees. When that fails, I tend to regard said individual as a person that's untrustworthy. You've reached that stage. In all honesty, I find it disgusting wherein any state employee is unwilling or incapable of following up on a given project when said employee states they will. This being more true if said employee is being paid with citizens tax dollars.

I eagerly await a response from you.

Dan Deckert
206 Alma
Benton City, WA 99320
509-588-8842/home
509-460-8991/cell

 

[Flopsweat]

Follow up..Nary word one from .. so had to write and ask why... I'll push until I have an answer. Thy're obligated by LAW and darn well had better answer..

Dan

Ms. Jenson;
Any scenario below should I presume to use since I have no response from you as you so stated you would?

1. You lied
2. You've falsified an estimated response date
3. You're incapable of doing your job
4. You could care less about any FOI requests
5. You're deceased
6. You've contracted a terminal disease & are undergoing treatment that's rendered you incapable
7. You're out of the office until ....?
8. Your computer crashed
9. The entire network crashed
10. The entire network was wiped out
11. Your request was lost
12. Aliens attacked
13. Immigrants attacked
14. You had a cold
15. You were passed out due to overwork
16. You have no idea how to get the info
17. Blah blah blah

I don't know how you or your office works (which now appears to be a joke on tax payer dollars) but when I tell someone I'll provide something on a given date, I either provide it or let them know why I haven't or can't. I sure as hell don't leave the individual hanging & wondering ....

Where's the information I requested? You have the COMPLETED legal form your office provided with a complete and specifically full request outlined by date, title and content. What seems to be the issue wherein you have failed to provide the FOI info I requested per (PRR-2019-0276) as you requested in a timely manner? One would sincerely hope this matter needs not be escalated to my elected representatives, the state AG office nor the courts to receive an answer to my clear & legally outlined FOI request.

I find it rather suspicious that a 30 or 60 second query on a set of SPECIFIC records on a SPECIFIC DATE would require a week or more to locate within a data base.

I cherish honesty above everything when dealing with my elected officials or state employees. When that fails, I tend to regard said individual as a person that's untrustworthy. You've reached that stage. In all honesty, I find it disgusting wherein any state employee is unwilling or incapable of following up on a given project when said employee states they will. This being more true if said employee is being paid with citizens tax dollars.

I eagerly await a response from you.

Dan Deckert
206 Alma
Benton City, WA 99320
509-588-8842/home
509-460-8991/cell

"Database" is one word.

On a more serious note, good work and keep on them. They are probably about to do something stupid. (Stupider? More stupid. )

 

[Rickenbacher39]

The stretch has been the weird speculating about maybe what if could perhaps omg doom.

That more or less describes every thing I see on the internet.