How firmly do you hold your handgun: Question from a rifle shooter.

[grandpaknowall]

My grip depends on many different factors. It changes with handgun, caliber, and mission objective.
We all know that limp wresting causes stovepipes.
A death grip impairs accurate shot placement, but if you are being chased by a bear, class is over if you drop your weapon.
I have found laser grips to be a great learning tool. They amplify any hand movement. Just watch the dot as you try different amounts of hand pressure, Stance, and trigger pull.
Time also determines how I shoot. Competition, Defense, Hunting, and Target shooting all call for different methods.
Assuming a person has at least average proficiency in handgun shooting, here is a technique I practice for defense - when you don't really have much time to line up your sights. 1) Set up multiple targets. 2) Practice instinctual double taps. Do not bother looking at your sights. Observe your POI of the first shot and then make instinctive micro-corrections for the second shot, move on to the next target, and repeat. And, of course, I know this only works if you can see your initial POI.
I could go on with this rant for a long time, Because it is such an interesting subject.
But I will endure the blow-back from these few comments, before I hone my typing skills.

 

[bsa1917hunter]

I shot Weaver Stance for years but Massad Ayoob's writing, expecially his Stress Fire series caused me to change. I now shoot a pretty traditional two-handed grip from a modified isosceles stance. Support hand wrapping the strong hand, thumbs parallel or with heavy recoiling handguns strong thumb over support thumb. I do gain 70-80 percent of the grip tension from my support hand.

I'm playing with keeping everything the same other than to increase the overall grip tension to levels higher than I've used in the past. I can understand the theory of hard holding in relation to recoil management but am not so sure it's worth the loss of trigger control and the resultant degradation of sight alignment during the trigger press. Perhaps I need to play with it more … which I plan to do.

Thanks for the comments so far, I appreciate them a great deal. Anybody else want to weigh in?

The best description I have heard is that you should feel your heels touch....but no more.

I thought you were supposed to click your heels together and make a wish that it hits what you are aiming at.

 

[tac]

I let someone shoot my 500 Mag, he was gripping it too tightly and it ended up doubling on hit. He squeezed so tightly that the second shot came double action inadvertently. Luckily no one or nothing got hurt.

That's exactly how I lucked in to my second Model 29, a 4" barrel version. The owner had been suckered into buying the first box of ammunition the vendor could offload on him. He took the gun to the range, loaded 'er up, and let rip. the first shot hit the target somewhere - but the second shot went clear through the wriggly tin roof. 'Good Lord', he said faintly, 'is that the time already? I really must be off...' He cleared the gun, and then left. Ten years later I bought the gun from a local part-time dealer for a song, still with ALL its packaging [see pic below] and an opened box of FEDERAL 300gr FMJ - Suitable only THOMPSON CONTENDER clearly printed on the label...



It is, of course, deactivated, and, accordingly to yUK law, I can neither sell, not give it to anybody. I CAN, if I wish, hand it in for [further] destruction, or submit it for further 'deactivation in accordance with the latest EU directives', which will render it into a welded-up lump.

Although, let's think about it for a moment. In yUK law a firearm is a device that propels/shoots/launches a projectile by means of explosive or expansive gases. The first time it got deactivated, it was rendered incapable of doing any of that, and was CERTIFIED as a deactivated, IOW, not longer a firearm.

So now I would be required to have this thing that is NOT a firearm, further modified so that it is no longer just a deactivated firearm, but a deactivated, deactivated firearm.

Is there any wonder that people who get the chance pee on the law in this country?

 

[tac]

I can just show you - this is me back in 2011 shooting in the 'last man standing competition'. Every shot has to be inside the seven-ring of the 25m pistol target. Any pistol can be used, and as you put a shot outside the seven ring, you drop out until only one man is left. In this case, it was me.

Load is 30gr of 3Fg and a ball.

 

[robertvarner]

70% of your grip should come from your support hand. I don't personally "white knuckle" it. A properly applied combat grip goes a long way here.

This info coupled with my medical experience makes sense. When you grip hard with your trigger hand, the muscles tense and can severely limit the ability of your trigger finger to be a fine instrument on the trigger, thus making it basically into a "claw".

The 60-70% rule of grip strength coming from your support hand is what I use, but do not white-knuckle it, grippung strongly enough to hold the handgun securely in place and avoiding a milking-grip after each shot.

Recently I've seen many, many ways that people grip their handguns while shooting. Many more than I realized. Each person uses what seems to work for them, and they have various levels of success in good marksmanship. Within slight variations, what matters most is control of the firearm and consistency.

 

[bsa1917hunter]

That's exactly how I lucked in to my second Model 29, a 4" barrel version. The owner had been suckered into buying the first box of ammunition the vendor could offload on him. He took the gun to the range, loaded 'er up, and let rip. the first shot hit the target somewhere - but the second shot went clear through the wriggly tin roof. 'Good Lord', he said faintly, 'is that the time already? I really must be off...' He cleared the gun, and then left. Ten years later I bought the gun from a local part-time dealer for a song, still with ALL its packaging [see pic below] and an opened box of FEDERAL 300gr FMJ - Suitable only THOMPSON CONTENDER clearly printed on the label...

View attachment 644827

It is, of course, deactivated, and, accordingly to yUK law, I can neither sell, not give it to anybody. I CAN, if I wish, hand it in for [further] destruction, or submit it for further 'deactivation in accordance with the latest EU directives', which will render it into a welded-up lump.

Although, let's think about it for a moment. In yUK law a firearm is a device that propels/shoots/launches a projectile by means of explosive or expansive gases. The first time it got deactivated, it was rendered incapable of doing any of that, and was CERTIFIED as a deactivated, IOW, not longer a firearm.

So now I would be required to have this thing that is NOT a firearm, further modified so that it is no longer just a deactivated firearm, but a deactivated, deactivated firearm.

Is there any wonder that people who get the chance pee on the law in this country?

Geez louise, i was shooting a model 29-2 when i was 14 years old.

 

[bsa1917hunter]

I was just reading an article yesterday in one of the gun rags and it was discussing grip and how it can affect subsequent shots. The author went on to say that it is sometimes natural for a shooter to inadvertently grip the pistol tighter and tighter, thus affecting the group and stringing the shots to the lower left area of the target. Thats if you are a right handed shooter. I know weve all been there and seen that, but may not know the reason. Keep in mind, the harder you grip it, the more it affects your trigger finger. Im not giving advice, just throwing out a tid bit that i read in a magazine my mom had at her house. Im also a "rifle shooter". I Dont consider myself a pistol shooter. Ill be shooting pistols today with my mom and sisters. Got to make sure the women know how to use theirs!!!!

 

[DLS]

Thanks for all the posts thus far … it's interesting to hear what others are doing and how it's working for them.

FWIW---Ben Stoeger likes a killer grip. Brian Enos in "Beyond Fundamentals " promotes a grip "just
firm enough that you don't drop the gun". Toss Steve Andersons books in the mix and
things get even more confused.

Add that to Brian Zins grip (see link below) and you see top shooters all over the map, since Zins seems to be in the middle between Enos and Stoeger. Zins has won the National Precision Pistol (formerly called Bullseye) title 13 times and holds several dozen national and international records. Mind you precision pistol's "rapid fire" stage is 5 shots in 10 seconds ... so it's slooooooow compared to the dynamic games. I think he makes good points nonetheless.

I've read Beyond Fundamentals a while ago and shot bullseye many years ago with that soft of a grip. I'm wondering if there has been an evolution toward firmer grips over time (since Stoger is a current champion and the more recent publisher) or there is, as there has been in the past, just a variation in methodology across the board.

 

[tac]

Geez louise, i was shooting a model 29-2 when i was 14 years old.

Well bully for you, Sir. I was six years and five months when I first shot one of my dad's M1911s... I was shooting at the incoming waves, and you'll be pleased to hear that I hit every one of 'em.

 

[bbbass]

Thumbs forward, no tea cupping and get that weight off those heels!

Hmmmph, I thought tea-bagging and light heels went together!!!

Six rounds, rapid fire.

The target will tell you if you need more, or less, grip. that you suck!!

I squeeze off a round with a rather tight grip then following rounds I lighten or tighten according to what I would think is needed.
Bill Jordan, of admirable repute, (for me) advocated for a just firm hand explaining the tighter the grip the less control you have with the trigger finger as it tends to stiffen along with the rest of the hand. I found this to be true.
He goes on to say use the support hand for the larger share of retention.

Might want to point out that Jordan was a revolver shooter IIRC. I wonder if things change when you go to a 1911 or a Glock???

Assuming a person has at least average proficiency in handgun shooting, here is a technique I practice for defense - when you don't really have much time to line up your sights. 1) Set up multiple targets AT 75YDS. 2) Practice instinctual double taps. Do not bother looking at your sights.

The 60-70% rule of grip strength coming from your support hand is what I use, but do not white-knuckle it, grippung strongly enough to hold the handgun securely in place and avoiding a milking-grip after each shot.

My wife was raised on a farm/ranch... she has a wonderful milking grip!!!

or there is, as there has been in the past, just a variation in methodology across the board.

^^^ This ^^^

IMO it's like any physical thing, dependent on the body mechanics of the individual. That said, take a look at how much advise there is out there on a golf swing... as well as how a number of people have non-traditional golf swings and still get the job done (unlike me).

I am also messing around with various grip techniques... my problems are that I have arthritis and my hands have weakened due to age and disuse. I recently looked for one of those old fashioned spring action grip exercise thingies but WalEWorld didn't got em. The other problem is visual,... after I had my cataracts done I find myself drifting into a Weaver type grip w/o a proper Weaver technique... that can't be good. I went back to Isoceles but overdid the forward push and stiffened my arms enough that my support hand started coming off the grip with the recoil... that's not good. Getting old and having to learn what works now is tough enough, but waiting until an IDPA match... priceless!!! Gotta get out more...

 

[CountryGent]

Well bully for you, Sir. I was six years and five months when I first shot one of my dad's M1911s... I was shooting at the incoming waves, and you'll be pleased to hear that I hit every one of 'em.

Reminds me of the first firearm I ever shot. I think I was 8 or 9 and my father said simply "you need to know how to use this" in reference to his Astra automatic. He had me discharge the magazine into the lake. To this day, I don't know why, though it was during a nadir in the Cold War and discussions about bad things going down were discussed among the adults.

 

[bbbass]

He had me discharge the magazine into the lake.

 

[CountryGent]

Perhaps my syntax failed; I mean to say I shot all the cartridges in the magazine into the lake. (And, yes, I know this is not a good idea. But being a child, I did not know better.)

 

[bbbass]

Perhaps my syntax failed; I mean to say I shot all the cartridges in the magazine into the lake. (And, yes, I know this is not a good idea. But being a child, I did not know better.)

We shall not let the children read the post... for safety's sake!!

 

[thorborg]

Perhaps my syntax failed; I mean to say I shot all the cartridges in the magazine into the lake. (And, yes, I know this is not a good idea. But being a child, I did not know better.)

Yes, as adults we do know better. Dynamite is a much more efficient fishing tool than a bullet.

 

[Pandaz3]

I was just reading an article yesterday in one of the gun rags and it was discussing grip and how it can affect subsequent shots. The author went on to say that it is sometimes natural for a shooter to inadvertently grip the pistol tighter and tighter, thus affecting the group and stringing the shots to the lower left area of the target. Thats if you are a right handed shooter. I know weve all been there and seen that, but may not know the reason. Keep in mind, the harder you grip it, the more it affects your trigger finger. Im not giving advice, just throwing out a tid bit that i read in a magazine my mom had at her house. Im also a "rifle shooter". I Dont consider myself a pistol shooter. Ill be shooting pistols today with my mom and sisters. Got to make sure the women know how to use theirs!!!!

They don't pay attention to you! They just nod their heads and say 'I never knew that' even if it's the fifth or fifteenth time you said it. You are just a necessary evil to them.

 

[tac]

Yes, as adults we do know better. Dynamite is a much more efficient fishing tool than a bullet.

I'm reliably informed that a British No94 grenade is equally effective, and somewhat more controllable. Of course, you'd need ready access to this military grenade in order to test the veracity of the assertion.

tac, 33-year soldier.

 

[tac]

I used to cause great amusement with my Japanese students by writing with both hands, but in opposite directions, across the whiteboard...they thought that was simply hilarious.

 

[oremike]

Today I did some experimenting with griping a couple different guns. I came to the realization that fitment in my hand was more important than grip pressure. First off I've worked with my hands all my life so am used to hanging on to tools firmly. I brought out my GP-100, and my Sig P-6, both that I like to shoot and shoot well. What I noticed is that neither gun squirmed around in my hand and pointed naturally. The sights just line up like they are supposed to. When I tightend up my grip on either it was still the same but the rest of me tightened up and the sights came back on target quicker particularly with the less powerful P-6 9mm. I was ringing a 6" steel plate so can't say if lose or tight made a smaller group or not but they all hit the plate. Lastly I shot my new to me Airweight in 38 Special. I couldn't hit the plate from 10 paces no matter how hard I squeezed the grip and it was moving around in my hand so I would have to reposition it every shot or two. Gripping hard made it worse and felt like it was squirting out of my hand. Because the gun doesn't fit my hand just with different gripping pressures I can get the 1 7/8" barrel to move up and down about an inch. Once I got all this figured out I was able to hit the plate most of the time at 20' as long as I just used my normal solid grip and tried to put the gun back in the same spot in my hand. I'll be getting different grips for the Airweight.

 

[tac]

I just tried to emulate your experience with squirmy, wrigglish guns, and rapidly came to the conclusion that my handguns, being mostly dead from deactivation [except for the Super Redhawk and Rugoer Old Army] just lie there in my hands waiting for me to do something thing with them.

Not a trace of wriggling or squirming was detected.

Maybe MY guns are simply better-behaved than yours?