How Close?

[Camelfilter]

Yea it's a a good point about the karate guy cuz in that case u know it's coming and that's one thing, but often this stuff comes out of the blue. Myself I was close to 1 armed car jacking in 2020, one in 2019 (helped chase the Bastid down), and one man beating on a naked petite woman in 2019. All of which came out of nowhere with zero warning. None required firearms thank goodness. Situational awareness dictates a lot about what your responses can be. If ur sleepwalking ur at a huge disadvantage. If u are aware you often have many options of how to respond even if it is an unexpected thing.

Jeff Cooper's 4 color situational awareness system is critical imo. For example in this situation in Sandy OR the lady tried to slash the guy's throat. If he was in condition orange/red he could have easily stopped her knife hand. But he went back to condition white after the lady left (she came back with a knife).

Never be in condition white. Unless your asleep.

 

[oldcorpgunny]

Yea it's a a good point about the karate guy cuz in that case u know it's coming and that's one thing, but often this stuff comes out of the blue. Myself I was close to 1 armed car jacking in 2020, one in 2019 (helped chase the Bastid down), and one man beating on a naked petite woman in 2019. All of which came out of nowhere with zero warning. None required firearms thank goodness. Situational awareness dictates a lot about what your responses can be. If ur sleepwalking ur at a huge disadvantage. If u are aware you often have many options of how to respond even if it is an unexpected thing.

Jeff Cooper's 4 color situational awareness system is critical imo. For example in this situation in Sandy OR the lady tried to slash the guy's throat. If he was in condition orange/red he could have easily stopped her knife hand. But he went back to condition white after the lady left (she came back with a knife).

Excellent comment!

 

[oldcorpgunny]

Without real world experience to compare, heroics or bravery in ones own mind may prove different in reality.
The distance I would like to suppose, and what may be defensible in court, are unfortunately, many yards apart.
Only the circumstance of the moment will speak the truth, even then, if I survive, the story likely loaded, in hindsight, with: "I should have", or maybe; "I shouldn't have".
As for the law, they likely want you to be half dead or missing body parts before you resign to use lethal force.
I don't think so!

I know from personal experience that hind site is always 100%, but I think that it's critical to have some kind of plan or process if it all goes sideways in a hurry. When I was a deputy, my greatest concern was myself followed closely by not wanting the assailant or me to injure or kill anyone else.

 

[oldcorpgunny]

I say keep it simple. Practice real-world situations as much as possible and imagine urself actually in that situation as you practice. Use any real shootings or situations u see on internet or anywhere really as examples.

Don't get good at relaxed slow fire and your body/mind behave completely differently in the real world situation (which is pretty much never relaxed slow fire). U want to react with control and confidence and be able to shoot quickly and accurately in any real-world scenario. Think of an airline pilot who has practiced possible emergencies 100s of times. When the real thing comes he doesn't have to think about what to do.

Also whoever is with u make sure they know that one of their jobs is to get it on video if possible. It's very likely someone else will have it on video and they may wish to paint you as the bad guy.

Great points!

 

[gmerkt]

This area of thought is very subjective. If the law now were as we've seen it depicted on TV in the Old West, it would be a lot easier to sort out. These days, circumstances are everything. My feeling is, it's easier to get in trouble from carrying a weapon than not. Very easy to become the bad guy by defending yourself. I try to live my life in a way that is apt to preclude the need for carrying. I have the permit, rarely carry. There are no guarantees. Odds are you won't need it. You might carry every day for 40 or more years, never need it. And never want to. Proponents will say, "All it takes is one time" and they are correct. I just play the odds.

Last time I carried was at a birthday party that was held at a public park facility. At night. I was asked to be the "fire master" for the big, outdoor fireplace. This park was a place where a few violent acts had occurred over the years. The next day, I mentioned this to Mrs. Merkt. She said, "I had no idea you had a gun on you." Which is just the way I like it.

The law in Wash. state is, once the threat turns away or retreats in any way, you no longer have a legal basis for discharge. Shooting at fleeing vehicles and all that, way in the past. That's a way for good people to go to jail. People who got carried away with a gun in their hand in a heated moment.

 

[Koda]

21 feet is not a rule. How close is a matter of the preclusion of the evidence, if you had no other choice.

 

[ilikegunspdx]

Found this video relating to what I was talking about re practicing real-world situations in your imagination at the range. For me, time practicing slow fire etc. at the range is time wasted (for self defense practice, not shooting just for fun I mean), because that same time can be used to get your skills and mind used to the idea of what may happen and how you will respond with control and confidence. "I got this" should be the response if it ever does happen in real life, because you have already been through it so many times.

 

[American123]

Majority of problems that could be considered self defense happen from a position of surprise, attacker already has the upper hand in that way, and to regain control and win that situation requires employing some methods to do so relevant to that specific situation, might include or a combination of, distraction, distance, feigned compliance, etc to gain an edge when making 'a move.'

Go watch a bunch of "active self protection" youtube videos to see how a lot of real self defense / attacks go down.They are also great examples of why the first shot on target is critical.

 

[ilikegunspdx]

Majority of problems that could be considered self defense happen from a position of surprise, attacker already has the upper hand in that way, and to regain control and win that situation requires employing some methods to do so relevant to that specific situation, might include or a combination of, distraction, distance, feigned compliance, etc to gain an edge when making 'a move.'

Go watch a bunch of "active self protection" youtube videos to see how a lot of real self defense / attacks go down.They are also great examples of why the first shot on target is critical.

Agree! Many happen that way. Watching those videos also gives you critical info. on body language etc. of the attackers and you can use that to your advantage to know what might happen before it does. Col Cooper has a great video on that here:

F.e. the guy at Taco Bell in the video above. If he simply stayed in condition Orange and kept an eye on the woman as she went to her car he would have seen her coming back again, with a wig on, probably at a really fast/determined gait, and maybe he could have even caught a glimpse of the knife. Any of those clues, if he had looked for them, would have meant he was more ready for the attack.

Another example is the attempted carjacking I referred to where the guy rolled his truck. Walking up to the truck me and others our first thought was, "does he need help? is he o.k.?" -and indeed those were the questions the dispatcher was asking me on the phone. Then he pops out of the driver window which is now facing upwards. By the way he was walking you could tell he wanted to get out of that scene and he looked desperate. Then he pretends to be a bystander. Then he tries to steal the car of someone who stopped to help. To be perfectly honest I knew something was wrong when I saw the speed that he popped out of the truck window. I should probably have known what he would do next by that alone. But the human response is to help when you see a car accident. Then your mind has to flip in 1 second 180 degrees from trying to help the guy to stopping him from hurting someone. That's why I say every range session is an opportunity to get your mind ready for that flip. Hopefully something bad won't happen but if it does, you know "I've got this". For me even if I go out soley for plinking fun, I practice a couple magazines with my EDC, drawing from a holster while imaging the scene unfolding.

 

[American123]

Agree! Many happen that way. Watching those videos also gives you critical info. on body language etc. of the attackers and you can use that to your advantage to know what might happen before it does. Col Cooper has a great video on that here:

F.e. the guy at Taco Bell in the video above. If he simply stayed in condition Orange and kept an eye on the woman as she went to her car he would have seen her coming back again, with a wig on, probably at a really fast/determined gait, and maybe he could have even caught a glimpse of the knife. Any of those clues, if he had looked for them, would have meant he was more ready for the attack.

Another example is the attempted carjacking I referred to where the guy rolled his truck. Walking up to the truck me and others our first thought was, "does he need help? is he o.k.?" -and indeed those were the questions the dispatcher was asking me on the phone. Then he pops out of the driver window which is now facing upwards. By the way he was walking you could tell he wanted to get out of that scene and he looked desperate. Then he pretends to be a bystander. Then he tries to steal the car of someone who stopped to help. To be perfectly honest I knew something was wrong when I saw the speed that he popped out of the truck window. I should probably have known what he would do next by that alone. But the human response is to help when you see a car accident. Then your mind has to flip in 1 second 180 degrees from trying to help the guy to stopping him from hurting someone. That's why I say every range session is an opportunity to get your mind ready for that flip. Hopefully something bad won't happen but if it does, you know "I've got this". For me even if I go out soley for plinking fun, I practice a couple magazines with my EDC, drawing from a holster while imaging the scene unfolding.

Oh hell yeah, majority of people cannot hide their intent being preceded by body language, eye focus, or even breathing. That taco bell situation (for me) was seen a mile ahead of time. Any time you have a confrontation with someone of unknown character, you never turn your back on them, especially taking into consideration other factors:

1) Your location - is this a walmart type place with walmart type people?
2) Their demeanor
3) Other factors

Guy at that taco bell made a mistake of thinking the attacker was as reasonable person as he was, and he paid the price for it.

The fact of the matter is, regular people don't think in a way capable of being able to consider the extent and depravity evil will go, and that is why they become victims.

 

[revjen45]

1) I got to demonstrate this at Citizens' Academy, and the attacker got me.
If possible, draw before he gets that close, fire when/if distance IS that close.
2) I carry a .410 revolver loaded with 7 1/2 shot so it's gotta be pretty close.
With all due respect, why?
3) When she came back, he shoulda been paying attention.
4) " I try to live my life in a way that is apt to preclude the need for carrying."
Me too, but I still carry.
"Odds are you won't need it."
It's not just the odds, it's also the stakes.
5) " The law in Wash. state is, once the threat turns away or retreats in any way, you no longer have a legal basis for discharge."
After the threat turns away or retreats I will be delighted to disengage.

 

[bbbass]

Had a karate instructor that could cover 21 feet and strike palm first at your face without touching you before your brain could tell you to block 99 times out of 100.

Most people with ill intent and a knife hidden can do a lot of damage to you before you can recognize it, draw and shoot.

Im pretty sure the myth busters did a segment on the 21 foot rule.

21 feet is not a rule. How close is a matter of the preclusion of the evidence, if you had no other choice.

100yds is close enough!!

 

[sobo]

100yds is close enough!!

And a clear LOS...

 

[Ironbar]

I know from personal experience that hind site is always 100%, but I think that it's critical to have some kind of plan or process if it all goes sideways in a hurry. When I was a deputy, my greatest concern was myself followed closely by not wanting the assailant or me to injure or kill anyone else.

Hindsight.

 

[DunRanull]

In my case, 3-4 feet (arms length).

 

[Cerberus Group]

If you can consistently make head shots 24/7 under any conditions, then 21 feet might be ok...if not, and be honest with yourself as most people can't, you want to double that distance.

The erroneous 21 Foot Rule

History; In 1983 then Salt Lake City Utah Police Officer Dennis Tueller, did a research on how quickly a person with a knife can cover a certain distance and is considered in a person's "Danger Zone". How long does it take you to place two center hits on a man sized target? At that time the...

www.northwestfirearms.com

 

[solv3nt]

I would scream "murder is illegal, this is a violence free establishment" then cower in fear.

 

[3MTA3]

I would scream "murder is illegal, this is a violence free establishment" then cower in fear.

Like they would ever go past my "Violence Free Zone" signs posted every 50 feet...

 

[ma96782]

WAIT, Wait, wait..........

You're the guy with the gun. Can't you decide what's right for you?



IF you are ever involved in a shooting.



Hopefully, you've gone to some SD classes/training. If you can't figure stuff out any further, it's probably best to turn in your CCW card.

Just my $0.02.....this post is NOT meant to be personal. It's just that......making "RULES" for every scenario is IMHO.....probably useless.

Aloha, Mark

 

[Andy54Hawken]

21 feet , 21 yards , 21 miles...Depending on who or what...any of those may be too close for safety.

Situations vary and what is a threat in one...may not be in another.
Also just what is threatening to a 20 odd year old person ...and an 80 odd year old person will be different.
Heath and fitness level may play role here as well.

Its best just to pay attention to what is going on around you...
And if you are feeling threatened , then get the Hell outta Dodge , no matter the distance involved.

Rules ...are good and useful....However...
More often than not...Life and bad guys ain't gonna play by your rules.
So...have "rules" / plans and the like....but be flexible in your response to a given situation.
Andy