How can an Amish man Buy an Firearm? (no photos of Amish)

[308]

Yes we do...
If anyone needs info on food storage, I can get my hands on info. I'm pretty sure you can go to our storehouses in Portland, cops bay, Springfield, or Medford, to get wheat and other stuff.

Bob's Red Mill in Milwaukie, Or is a great place also. It takes very little effort to buy 25# of rice and pack it in a food grade container. All of which can be purchased there. Why people don't know this or do this is beyond me. Stock ammo, but forget about food?

 

[etrain16]

I totally believe in a man's right to practice his own religious beliefs. But come on. I'm going to say Merry Christmas, and I'm going to have a Christmas tree. A Jewish person can say Happy Hanukkah, and a Buddhist can say whatever they say. I do however recognize the laws of the land, and am sick and tired of everybody wanting an exception for their religious beliefs. Does EVERYBODY have to have some kind of exception? I know, maybe I'm a little off on this, but dang it - go spend your money on something else other than another lawsuit clogging the courts.

So just bag the first amendment then? I can probably say with some certainty that his group was practicing their beliefs long before photo ID became the law of the land. We're not talking about a man who is just adopting certain aspects of a belief because he likes them, we're talking about someone with deeply held religious beliefs - a benchmark that is usually identified by the courts, up to SCOTUS, for determining whether or not someone's religious beliefs should supercede state or federal laws. They don't exactly apply it equally, but that is the general idea.

Assuming you are in full support of the 2nd, I would hope you're equally in support of the first.

 

[ZA_Survivalist]

I say they shouldnt be able to purchase a firearm. As much as I support an Americans right and desire to own a firearm for self preservation.. Im sick and tired of fringe folks getting around the law.

Illegal alien thats been here for 8+ months can buy a firearm?
Amish, who pay no taxes, & dont serve in the military..etc.. yet still want a 21st century firearm? NOPE.

Id fully support their right to make one or buy and sell pre serial # firearms .. But special exceptions shouldnt be made. They want to live like its the 1800's they can own and shoot muzzle loaders or start paying taxes and be eligible for the draft.. NO religious exemptions anymore.

 

[Oregonhunter5]

Bob's Red Mill in Milwaukie, Or is a great place also. It takes very little effort to buy 25# of rice and pack it in a food grade container. All of which can be purchased there. Why people don't know this or do this is beyond me. Stock ammo, but forget about food?

Our church sells in the #10 cans. If that helps anyone make there decision.

 

[v0lcom13sn0w]

And what? Use their brace and bit to machine it?

iirc the amish may borrow power tools and a generator but may not own them. im only going off what i heard on tv... which, i know doesnt say much

 

[corpsman]

I say they shouldnt be able to purchase a firearm. As much as I support an Americans right and desire to own a firearm for self preservation.. Im sick and tired of fringe folks getting around the law.

Illegal alien thats been here for 8+ months can buy a firearm?
Amish, who pay no taxes, & dont serve in the military..etc.. yet still want a 21st century firearm? NOPE.

Id fully support their right to make one or buy and sell pre serial # firearms .. But special exceptions shouldnt be made. They want to live like its the 1800's they can own and shoot muzzle loaders or start paying taxes and be eligible for the draft.. NO religious exemptions anymore.

Mmm... Any Amish on welfare? Are they positive producers of legal products and services that are in demand? There can be no doubt that there are elements of the Constitution that conflict, however I do not see that as a basis for denying any of the enumerated rights. Some may complain about perceived inequities, however I don't see millions lining up to become Amish or some other religion in order to benefit from said inequities. Do you see Amish, Mennonites, et. al.; demanding others comply with their religious standards? The base issue is tolerance.

 

[jbett98]

I think some use electricity, but only on the outside of buildings.
An electric motor is mounted to the outside of the building and a fan belt or chain goes through a hole in the wall and powers the equipment inside.

 

[v0lcom13sn0w]

"sb941, keeping guns out of the amish and criminals hands since 2015"

lol

 

[ZA_Survivalist]

Mmm... Any Amish on welfare? Are they positive producers of legal products and services that are in demand? There can be no doubt that there are elements of the Constitution that conflict, however I do not see that as a basis for denying any of the enumerated rights. Some may complain about perceived inequities, however I don't see millions lining up to become Amish or some other religion in order to benefit from said inequities. Do you see Amish, Mennonites, et. al.; demanding others comply with their religious standards? The base issue is tolerance.

Its religious exeption, this applies to all relegions with law conflicting beliefs.
When does it stop?
When literally only you and I are paying the burden, jumping through hoops, getting documented and taxed to death will you see there should be no special privilege for anyone.

He needs to:
Sign up for the draft
Get his photo ID
Get printed
Pay a BGC fee
Pay taxes that pay for the road his buggy drove on, for the patrol cars that make sure crime stays down, for the emergency vehicles that help folks to safety including him if necessary, for the city that brings people to the town where the shop is located, where he had to have a photo ID, his finger prints taken to sell the firearms at his shop, where he pays his taxes that pay for the streets that pay for the cops that pay for the EMTs, that pay for the other ancillary things a city needs to run to bring people to on the land that men have faught and died for when duty came to call...

But I see, lets make an exeption for those too lazy, entitled or alternative that opt to not pay for the things you and I have to bear the burden of paying for. That seems fair.

Trust me, I support every Legal, law abiding tax paying Americans right to keep and bear arms, but if you arent a true part of America, you dont deserve the rights nor are they special enough to be granted exception.

Now, do I agree with the taxes and bureaucratic requirements included in the luxury and headache that is modern civilization? No, This is about us having to jump through hoops and those that do not honor not contribute to the US getting special privilege.

 

[corpsman]

I suspect, in order to accomplish your stated desires, there will have to be a Constitutional amendment. I understand your being concerned about inequities, however your concerns do not trump the law. Something the libtards do not want to examine with respect to gun control.

 

[etrain16]

Since we're talking taxes, here is what they do and don't pay. They do not paybsocial security, and do not collect social security.

Do the Amish pay taxes?
Self-employed Amish do not pay Social Security tax. Those employed by non- Amish employers do pay Social Security tax. The Amish do pay real estate, state and federal income taxes, county taxes, sales tax, etc.

The Amish do not collect Social Security benefits, nor would they collect unemployment or welfare funds. Self sufficiency is the Amish community's answer to government aid programs. Section 310 of the Medicare section of the Social Security act has a sub-section that permits individuals to apply for exemption from the self-employment tax if he is a member of a religious body that is conscientiously opposed to Social Security benefits but that makes reasonable provision of taking care of their own elderly or dependent members. The Amish have a long history of taking care of their own members. They do not have retirement communities or nursing homes; in most cases, each family takes care of their own, and the Amish community gives assistance as needed.

Source: http://amishreligiousfreedom.org/amishfaq.htm#tax

I'm no apologist for the Amish, but it would seem they do pay their share, and are also far less of a burden to other taxpayers as they pretty much take care of themselves, while also contributing to their local economies.

If anything I'd be more for suspending certain rights and privileges for those that make their entire lives about milking the system - they, and those that constantly hand them those seemingly never ending benefits are the ones that tick me off.

 

[corpsman]

Since we're talking taxes, here is what they do and don't pay. They do not paybsocial security, and do not collect social security.

Do the Amish pay taxes?
Self-employed Amish do not pay Social Security tax. Those employed by non- Amish employers do pay Social Security tax. The Amish do pay real estate, state and federal income taxes, county taxes, sales tax, etc.

The Amish do not collect Social Security benefits, nor would they collect unemployment or welfare funds. Self sufficiency is the Amish community's answer to government aid programs. Section 310 of the Medicare section of the Social Security act has a sub-section that permits individuals to apply for exemption from the self-employment tax if he is a member of a religious body that is conscientiously opposed to Social Security benefits but that makes reasonable provision of taking care of their own elderly or dependent members. The Amish have a long history of taking care of their own members. They do not have retirement communities or nursing homes; in most cases, each family takes care of their own, and the Amish community gives assistance as needed.

Source: http://amishreligiousfreedom.org/amishfaq.htm#tax

I'm no apologist for the Amish, but it would seem they do pay their share, and are also far less of a burden to other taxpayers as they pretty much take care of themselves, while also contributing to their local economies.

If anything I'd be more for suspending certain rights and privileges for those that make their entire lives about milking the system - they, and those that constantly hand them those seemingly never ending benefits are the ones that tick me off.

Thank you for the clarification. I suppose that makes my last post moot, in the case of the Amish.

Then, we have a remarkable polar opposite with regard to social behaviors, Islam.

 

[RicInOR]

When the Feds issue a Photo ID, then the Feds can demand a PhotoID.



Until then, why is the ID which works for the State not acceptable?

Also, if you did get photographed for a state ID, and that ID is not accepted by the Feds
Oregon Drivers Licences were almost that way, I think New Mexico's are that way, what do they do?
Grounded: New Mexico driver's licenses fail feds' test ...

How about you Washingtonians?
Feds say regular Wash. driver's license isn't strict enough for ...
If yours does meet some Federal standards, can it meet any?

http://www.dhs.gov/real-id-public-faqs





There are some groups, including around Salem, OR, which do not choose to use State Issued ID - even for a while making their own licence plates. This is a whole 'nother level.

 

[IheartSig]

I'm all for religious freedoms, provided they do not trample on others or negatively impact others.

I actually respect the Amish a lot, if not for their beliefs, for their dedication and respect of tradition.

I don't see this as a 1st amendment issue. Congress made no law concerning a religion here. It does not prevent them from practicing their religion. It doesn't prevent their freedom of speech, their right to peacefully assemble, it does not prevent them from petitioning the government concerning grievances.

My point of view is if you want to walk into a modern day gun shop and purchase a modern day shotgun, you need a modern day form of ID, just like everyone else.

I would suggest that bending laws to suit religions is as dangerous as making laws to prevent them.

 

[corpsman]

I'm all for religious freedoms, provided they do not trample on others or negatively impact others.

I actually respect the Amish a lot, if not for their beliefs, for their dedication and respect of tradition.

I don't see this as a 1st amendment issue. Congress made no law concerning a religion here. It does not prevent them from practicing their religion. It doesn't prevent their freedom of speech, their right to peacefully assemble, it does not prevent them from petitioning the government concerning grievances.

My point of view is if you want to walk into a modern day gun shop and purchase a modern day shotgun, you need a modern day form of ID, just like everyone else.

I would suggest that bending laws to suit religions is as dangerous as making laws to prevent them.

As most are likely aware, there is a religion that is being allowed to bend all sorts of laws.

 

[IheartSig]

As most are likely aware, there is a religion that is being allowed to bend all sorts of laws.

And that is as unacceptable as this should be. If we are going to talk about religions bending rules, we can talk about all of them. They all do it.

But yeah, that's a pretty good example of the "slippery slope".

 

[RicInOR]

@IheartSig - I don't think they want to bend the law. They have lawful ID. Why can't they use that?


When you last bought a gun at a retail establishment, didn't they finger print you? didn't they run a background check? IF you didn't have a card, which is not a Federal ID, with a picture on it, wouldn't the finger print and BGC turn out the same?

I think this is not a Religious battle - but rather a questioning of arbitrary rules established by the Feds.

 

[corpsman]

Finger prints?

 

[IheartSig]

@IheartSig - I don't think they want to bend the law. They have lawful ID. Why can't they use that?


When you last bought a gun at a retail establishment, didn't they finger print you? didn't they run a background check? IF you didn't have a card, which is not a Federal ID, with a picture on it, wouldn't the finger print and BGC turn out the same?

I think this is not a Religious battle - but rather a questioning of arbitrary rules established by the Feds.

I think we need to observe the difference between a "lawful ID" and the ID required to purchase a firearm though. While his ID may serve certain purposes it is NOT the average picture identification the other 98% of Americans are expected to possess for any given use.

Finger prints and a background check mean absolutely nothing if you don't have some type of visual proof of who is actually giving them to you, unless he waits for them to come back registered to him. That would require him having his prints on file somewhere as well, after being verified etc. I find it odd that a person of the Amish faith would find a biblical argument against photographs but be all together fine with finger prints being recorded etc. But never the less, that seems like a reasonable compromise to me. Provided he wait until it has been verified, which would take weeks I am sure.

I think my disagreement, like you stated, comes from arbitrary rules and the bending of those rules for one group, not another. If the rules are in place, we either follow them, all of us, or none of us. I shouldn't get a pass because I have a religious belief that prohibits me from something like having my photograph taken.

 

[etrain16]

I think we need to observe the difference between a "lawful ID" and the ID required to purchase a firearm though. While his ID may serve certain purposes it is NOT the average picture identification the other 98% of Americans are expected to possess for any given use.

Finger prints and a background check mean absolutely nothing if you don't have some type of visual proof of who is actually giving them to you, unless he waits for them to come back registered to him. That would require him having his prints on file somewhere as well, after being verified etc. I find it odd that a person of the Amish faith would find a biblical argument against photographs but be all together fine with finger prints being recorded etc. But never the less, that seems like a reasonable compromise to me. Provided he wait until it has been verified, which would take weeks I am sure.

I think my disagreement, like you stated, comes from arbitrary rules and the bending of those rules for one group, not another. If the rules are in place, we either follow them, all of us, or none of us. I shouldn't get a pass because I have a religious belief that prohibits me from something like having my photograph taken.

I did a little reading this week about the Amish due to this thread. To the Amish, a photograph is a violation of the 2nd commandment - do not make any graven images - it's a long held Amish belief that pre-dates photography. They see photographs, paintings, sketches of the face, as a form of vanity, and, thereby, a sin. It's important to them and their beliefs.

They don't have an issue with things like x-rays or fingerprints, because it doesn't fit the vanity issue.

Personally, I'd like to see LESS restrictions on all of us that wish to purchase guns, not more. As far as the Amish go, given current laws, I have no problem with them perhaps being offered an alternative form of ID, such as the fingerprint idea. Maybe for them, that means they have to wait a few days that you and I may not otherwise have to do. That way, they still undergo a check and confirmation like you or I would, but are also allowed to honor their religious beliefs. Seems like a reasonable compromise for everyone, and they aren't given a special pass that the rest of us don't get to enjoy.

I would suspect that the Amish, who seem to be generally easygoing folks, would be willing to abide by such a rule. What do you think?