How big of a disadvantage do civilians have versus ex-military in a SHTF scenario?

[Mohawk13]

Best to get started developing one now then. May not seem so important today, but who knows what tomorrow brings. There is a reason that it is known as "Prepping"....

 

[Bunny]

I've learned a lot from my military and ex-military friends and I think some of the advantages they've gotten from serving are awareness and mental preparedness. I think most people who serve are more mentally prepared, adaptable, and resilient than your average civilian. Not that civilians can't be, but everyone who serves receives mental training and conditioning that many civilians may never have or take the opportunity to learn.

I think when you serve you get the opportunity to learn a broad range of basic survival skills. And I think sometimes civilians have more opportunity to specialize. Both are assets and I don't think being one or the other restricts you from gaining more skills or information or necessarily puts you at a disadvantage.

Soldier's Manual of Common Tasks (One of the best books to have IMO)
www.25idl.army.mil/commontasks.pdf

 

[whiskeybill]

Even in the military, until a soldier is actually in it up to his or her ears, no one is sure exactly how they will function. Training & preparation is all you can do, and try to get yourself into the mind-set that you must survive to succeed. Even in the most realistic of combat training scenarios that the military can conjure, it isn't until your are sent into the real deal that you realize that people are actually, for real, trying to kill you. I was never involved in actual up-close and personal combat, having had my hands wrapped around a nice cup of Joe aboard ship. But what I said before is what I have heard from many Marine and Army combat vets that I have known personally. I have no reason to doubt them.

 

[Ownerus]

Best to get started developing one now then. May not seem so important today, but who knows what tomorrow brings. There is a reason that it is known as "Prepping"....

Important? Yes. Easily done? Not if you're a little cautious.
To quote George Washington:
"Be courteous to all, but intimate with few, and let those few be well tried before you give them your confidence."
I've seen too many instances of people who I thought I knew either changing or revealing that I didn't really know them after all...10 or 15 years later. Tough to make a "team" in a short time frame with that experience.

 

[tardylemon]

Now that Im out of the military Im probably going to get a 'preppers group going' thanks for the idea

 

[RVTECH]

The more thought I give to this the more I think not only do veterans and military members not have any specific advantage, they may actually be at a disadvantage in a SHTF situation. Other than maybe a very small percentage of military members who are part of very specialized units (AF PJ, SEALS, etc) the average military member is not taught any specific survival skills. The military does not teach self-reliance or independence, quite the opposite actually as the military teaches (and stresses) an indentured, dependent group think mentality. The military is, for all intents and purposes, is a structured, safe and sometimes a parent like institution. When you walk through the gate you are clothed, fed, housed, for the most part well taken care of. I remember many in my military experience who, if it were not for the military would have been in pretty bad shape - or worse. And the longer one spends in the military the less dependent one is on his or herself as the military becomes the benefactor. I tend to believe a civilian, who has had to provide for himself, encountered the pitfalls of life, suffered losses and failures and prevailed to some degree or level of success is far more 'prepared' to face adversity than a veteran or military member who has always had the relative 'safety' of the military to provide the basics. This is simply one veteran's opinion based on personal experience. I am not trying to make a point or convince anyone of anything.

 

[viehmann7680]

I don't agree with you completely. In most cases you are right. But I was in no "spec ops" group. I got all kinds of training that I value very much. But I was a scout... it was our job to be out in small groups or just 2 people. And a lot of stuff I learned wasn't from preticular training. Things I picked up because 1. I'm not stupid 2. They were useful and I didn't want to be in that situation again. Like going out for a 4 hour observation post, with minimal supplies and not returning for 3 1/2 days. But luckily I had a good NCO that taught me a lot about being in that situation and such. People only learn when they want to. A lot of people I was around were kids that didn't care, just did it cause they wanted to shoot something, etc... Very few (younger ones anyways) don't really take it all in. My 7 years in the army gave me a big advantage... I could have gotten it as a civilian, but it would have been harder and not just given to me. I'll chalk it up to having a combat MOS, Actually wanting to learn, And having good NCO's = ADVANTAGE

 

[Hook686]

I think the lone warrior is doomed no matter how well equiped.

 

[DEADTIME]

19 Kilo (M1 Crewman) tank commander for 21 years, retired now. The edge some would have would depend on the scenario really. I was a tanker so my outlook is very different than say, a crunchy (infantry). I used small arms, I trained with them but not as much as the 11 class mos folks (infantry).

If your talking a friendly shtf scenario where you have a cohesive living environment and a good working relationship with your local neighbors and town then not much really beyond some survival skills. If you were raised on a farm you would do just as well.

Mindset is where the game changes, if we are talking an end of society situation in which there is open and active aggression then people who haven't been in that spot will not have the coping mechanisms at the beginning. Not to say they won't gain them but as I said its all about mindset.

What do I mean by mindset, here's a scenario. You are at your safe spot, well established, supplied and secure with your family.

A man and a child approach you, let's say you have at least 100 yards between your safe spot and these folks. What do they want? Well probably food and safety, here's the problem. Is he a scout? Is he using the child as a disguise? A shield? If you meet him and give him some food he will most likely leave and tell others who will then come and want what you have.

Through your kindness you have either helped another human being, or set yourself up to be swamped by the unprepared or set yourself up to be ambushed. I already have a mindset that says I will survive, my loved ones will survive and I will kill anyone who is a threat. I do not have the zero kill hesitation, I will drop anyone who even smells of Indian country.

A civilian can quickly learn the attitude, he might not have the tactics but the will to survive can be fostered and a ruthless nature can he gained by most people, note I said most as some people are so sheeple trained that they refuse to see a wolf as a wolf because it might offend the wolf.

The technical aspects of firearms and tactics can be learned fairly quickly, it's more about mindset, learning when to turn your sheep dog sense's on and how to detect a threat and when to pull the trigger.

 

[Mohawk13]

When The SHTF, There will be no time for a learning curve. Best to look to those who know and are willing to step forward and be a leader and organizer....Seek them out, be vigilant, be prepared...

 

[whiskeybill]

The more thought I give to this the more I think not only do veterans and military members not have any specific advantage, they may actually be at a disadvantage in a SHTF situation. Other than maybe a very small percentage of military members who are part of very specialized units (AF PJ, SEALS, etc) the average military member is not taught any specific survival skills. The military does not teach self-reliance or independence, quite the opposite actually as the military teaches (and stresses) an indentured, dependent group think mentality. The military is, for all intents and purposes, is a structured, safe and sometimes a parent like institution. When you walk through the gate you are clothed, fed, housed, for the most part well taken care of. I remember many in my military experience who, if it were not for the military would have been in pretty bad shape - or worse. And the longer one spends in the military the less dependent one is on his or herself as the military becomes the benefactor. I tend to believe a civilian, who has had to provide for himself, encountered the pitfalls of life, suffered losses and failures and prevailed to some degree or level of success is far more 'prepared' to face adversity than a veteran or military member who has always had the relative 'safety' of the military to provide the basics. This is simply one veteran's opinion based on personal experience. I am not trying to make a point or convince anyone of anything.

Although you're not trying to make a point, you made a good one anyway! I can't recall who is making the documentary, but I heard of this fellow on the Lars Larson show who is doing one on a SHTF scenario in the Metro Portland area. Sadly, alot of civilians have the same mind-set as the majority of the folks in New Orleans had with Katrina. "The government will take care of us". What can we take from this? According to interviews done by this film maker, people are not looking to learn any lessons from what happened in Katrina. Most citizens think the the government learned from that event how to better respond and take care of the citizens. The government is hoping the citizens learned to be more self-sufficient, so their ability to respond to crises has not gotten much better. I'm not saying that all citizens are this way, but a good number of them have the "Government is the parent" attitude. The Nanny State is very much like being in the military, wherein everyone thinks they will be provided for. Let's say a major volcanic eruption occurs, or a major earthquake in the area. Neither of these will provide the adavnced warning of a Hurricane such as Andrew or Katrina.

 

[mosinguy]

it is funny everyone is saying the same thing the one key thing is depending on your mos or a school does determine ones possible advantage and as Viehmann said and i am paraphraising if you went in to learn and had good leaders then it is an advantage. as everyone else has said seek out the ones who know and pick their brains for every tid bit of knowledge you might gain..... it isnt called prepping for nothing

 

[Bunny]

I heard of this fellow on the Lars Larson show who is doing one on a SHTF scenario in the Metro Portland area.

Do you have a name by chance? I'd be curious to find out more about this.

Let's say a major volcanic eruption occurs, or a major earthquake in the area. Neither of these will provide the advanced warning of a Hurricane such as Andrew or Katrina.

I was driving into/through downtown Portland on i-5 a month or so ago and saw a bunch of steam rising out of St. Helen. Makes me nervous every time I see it.

 

[whiskeybill]

Bunny, it's been several months ago and I can't recall the mans name or the name of the upcoming documetary. I tried searching Larsons archives with very little success.

 

[Burt Gummer]

In Bosnia and other places their scenario was different. A toughened populace of men trying to survive by any means.

Here in the US the vast majority of the male populace has been successfully neutered by political correctness, drugs, and a desire to search out their inner child. When SHTF they best they'll be able to do is lay down, complain a lot, try to find gov help, and eventually and die/starve.

The remaining 2-3% will be the ones competing with you for survival by physical/any means + the gov doing everything it can at your expense to stay in control.

Not saying SHTF (economic collapse) won't be horrific, it will. But don't expect the majority of the people you see on a day to day basis to be any threat to you at all. You are not in a populace of tough/hardened men, your typical competitor for survival will be a completely unprepared imbecile.

Think of the turtles running to the ocean, trying to get there before the seagulls and crabs can take them away.

There will be thousands of soft targets for the bad guys (or just those trying to survive by any means) before they can ever tackle most of the prepared folks; like most of the people on this forum. These soft targets will be easy fodder for acquisition of food, shelter, etc. The government will be kept busy with riots and all the sheep lining up to join an interment camp as their only, last hope.

 

[MisterD]

I know a lot of current and retired military most of them I believe would have no advantage in a SHTF scenario although there are a few and I mean very few that were in war and gained fighting, gun handing, attitude and PTSD

I would have to disagree with you. How many civilians know anything about surviving or preparing for a chemical, biological or radiological attack if given advance notice?

Yet how many veterans have served that may not have seen combat that had to endure hours upon hours of CBR training and certification?

Maybe more Army and Marine troops than Air Force and Navy, but still there are many out that know what to do for an eminent attack of those types.

Next, we should look at the advanced First Aid training received that includes some Trauma related care that the average civilian will never see. The generally get training in things as simple as when it is not appropriate to elevate a wound after bandaging it.
I'm going to give an example of something that could easily happen in civilian life that is not taught in standard Red Cross First Aid certification classes.

Working a construction site and you come across someone who fell on a piece of rebar and now had a sucking wound in his chest. If after you seal the outer hole and bandage him up, you do not want to elevate that wound as he is most likely still going to have a hole in his lung with internal bleeding, so if you do elevate it, he is going to fill his good lung and suffocate. For those of us who were force fed first aid training every three months, we probably got training on coming across a soldier who had been shot in the chest with a sucking chest wound at least once a year if not more often.

This doesn't even go into the job specific training that certain soldiers got that would benefit a community in the event of an all-out attack by a Military force. Like how to set-up tank traps to completely kill tanks or at least disable them from moving forward while sniping at them from covered positions while they are trying to repair what was damaged. How many non-veteran civilians know anything about fully automatic weaponry? I am sure there are many .. but are there enough?

Sure some hunters may know more about cover and concealment than the average non-combat vet.. but then, most hunters are not trained in hiding from an armed enemy, so this may be even odds.

Hopefully you are getting my point.

ADD/EDIT: I saw in the post by Bunny http://www.northwestfirearms.com/pr...sus-ex-military-shtf-scenario.html#post645688 #22 where there is a link to a 25th Inf Training guide that covers some of the First Aid training I referred to. Good reading! look at what they now call Open Chect Wound for what I was calling sucking chest wound. Task 081-831-1026

 

[MrNiceGuy]

Maybe more Army and Marine troops than Air Force and Navy, but still there are many out that know what to do for an eminent attack of those types.

step 1:
Wait for orders

step 2:
Follow orders.

If any supplies are needed, they will be issued to you. If they are not issued to you, they are not needed.

 

[MisterD]

step 1:
Wait for orders

step 2:
Follow orders.

If any supplies are needed, they will be issued to you. If they are not issued to you, they are not needed.

LOL Was that the kinda crap you got while in? If so, what branch/unit?

 

[whiskeybill]

Step 1: Adapt

Step 2: Overcome

 

[Riot]

Pretty cool little thread...gonna chime in to this one, if I may.

"Do military members have an advantage over civilians during SHTF?"

To answer the question as simply as I can- Yes and No.

Military members (regardless of branch of service or job) are taught a core skill set of first aid, rifle marksmanship, land navigation and team tactics (just to name a few). All of these skills can be learned outside of a military environment so the argument that this training, alone, creates an advantage over civilians is nil.

However, many military members have experienced combat (directly or indirectly). Through these combat experiences, I would have to say that most military members would have an advantage over your typical civilian for SHTF scenarios. Experiences learned in the field are life changing and mind altering. You never truly know just how well you will handle yourself under intense stress unless you actually encounter a stressful situation. Mind you, I'm not talking about a guy yelling at you in a bar, getting into a car wreck or playing an intense game of paintball here; I'm talking about real sh*t that no amount of training can reproduce. Nevertheless, there are some civilians that have actually been shot at and/or provided first aid to seriously injured people while managing to keep their wits about them. These few people, I will admit, have the same advantage as any military vet.

It really comes down to individual experiences and your overall mindset. Some military members (as pointed out earlier) have no real combat experience. Nevertheless, just because you go out and get a lot of military-like training under your belt doesn't mean that you will succeed during a SHTF/TEOWAWKI either.

My opinion? People who have grown up on a farm (slaughtering animals and tending to fields) will succeed the most when the S hits the fan. They know what hard work actually feels like, don't get squeamish when they see blood and are probably more physically fit than most. They may also know how to take care of livestock, tend to wells and even do minor repairs on farm equipment. Many farmers I know are proficient in firearms and hunting as well. Ironically it has also been my observation that people who grow up on farms or in the country succeed better in the military than your average city dweller.

*Riot Out*