National Homemade firearms, 80% products, etc. When do they legally become a firearm?

arakboss

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My understanding with 80% frames and receivers is that if you take it one step further than the way it is manufactured then it would legally be considered a firearm. For example you purchase an 80% pistol frame and drill one of three holes then it's considered a legal firearm.

What about homemade firearms, at what point in the process of making a frame or receiver would it be considered a firearm?

I am remotely thinking about trying to convert an FNS-9 Cybergun bb gun frame so that it will accept a FNS-9 slide and frame parts. The Cybergun frame already appears to be further along the process compared to an 80% percent frame. Top pic is an actual fns-9 frame, bottom pic is a Cybergun bb gun frame.

Screenshot_20200929-033743.png

Screenshot_20200929-033603.png

Would the Cybergun bb gun frame only be considered a firearm if I could get it to function with 9mm slide or......?
 

Lilhigbee

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I it is my understanding that each type of 80% lower that is commercially available was a collaboration between the original manufacturer and BATF. They submit a sample for consideration and BATF says yes, that part can be done, or no, that part can't be done, until there is an agreement on it being at 80%. If that's the case then you would have to go through a similar process for your homebuilt.
And yes, anything at all that moves the 80% frame towards completion makes it a firearm, as little as marking the area of the trigger pocket on an AR for example.
 
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arakboss

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I it is my understanding that each type of 80% lower that is commercially available was a collaboration between the original manufacturer and BATF. They submit a sample for consideration and BATF says yes, that part can be done, or no, that part can't be done, until there is an agreement on it being at 80%. If that's the case then you would have to go through a similar process for your homebuilt.
And yes, anything at all that moves the 80% frame towards completion makes it a firearm, as little as marking the area of the trigger pocket on an AR for example.
What about homemade firearms, at what point would they be a firearm?
 

Lilhigbee

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What about homemade firearms, at what point would they be a firearm?
To get a true definition of 80% is going to take a conversation between you and your friendly, local BATF office. Not a question I would ask in this case because all it can do is cause a world of grief for the Cybergun manufacturer. You are free to do what you want with the frame as a home builder (other than full-auto), without regard to the 80% rule. If it works, way cool, if it doesn't no harm done.
 

MechaNik

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With this particular item, I would say it's a firearm once it can accept the slide and fire a round. Until that point, it's just a modified BB gun.

Also, intent goes a looooooong way in the legal system
 
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I've built literally dozens of Firearms at home using kits, the only people who need to worry about the atf approval on a frame/receiver are manufacturers who intend to sell them as 80% that needs legal determination because anything being sold that's beyond 80% requires you to fill out the 4473 like any other firearm purchase. As a home build you don't have to be concerned with any of that as long as the finished firearm is legal to own where you live and as I mentioned before you intend to use it for your own personal firearm, it's legal. I'm interested to see how that turns out. If you follow through with it be sure to post the results, good luck.
 
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That makes sense, I always hear people say "the atf is all about intent" and in the wording of the laws intent comes up a lot, but how the hell do they prove what a man intends to do unless he's already done it¿ Anyway, I appreciate you sharing that information, I'd sell a kidney before I sell any of my guns, but it's still good to know, thanks.
 
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arakboss

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Could just cast yourself a cannon. Probably have more fun with that, then basically converting a BB gun.

Ka-BOOM.
In my mind it's all tupperware when it comes to the frame. From the outside this Cybergun frame looks like it came from the same mold as my FNS40. I wish I could find stripped down pics of the inside of the cybergun bb gun frame but no such luck yet. I would much prefer to find a real FNS9/40 frame but they are not out there like Glock frames.
 
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IANAL *giggles* i am not a laywer but
#1 you have already stated intent to use said device to make a working gun
#2 if you can attach a slide and even make it go bang once it is a gun
#3 if you have the intent and it can be made to shoot with no modification then it is already 100%
 
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#1. You can intend on doing whatever you want as long as its not illegal. Building a gun from a toy is not illegal ( federally ) .

#2. You can start with whatever you want to build a gun with be it a block of playdough , a brick or an 80% receiver or a toy gun.

#3. If you build it and you get tired of shooting it or just dont like it you can sell it to anyone legally allowed to own a gun in your state at will ( federally ) with no paperwork or engraving or 4473's or anything else. You can not make a business out of doing that unless you register as a 07 manufacturer. You cannot build one for someone else. You can build one and sell it though but you cannot build one with the intent to sell it.
 
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I it is my understanding that each type of 80% lower that is commercially available was a collaboration between the original manufacturer and BATF. They submit a sample for consideration and BATF says yes, that part can be done, or no, that part can't be done, until there is an agreement on it being at 80%. If that's the case then you would have to go through a similar process for your homebuilt.
And yes, anything at all that moves the 80% frame towards completion makes it a firearm, as little as marking the area of the trigger pocket on an AR for example.

None of that is true.
 

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