Oregon Home Defense with reloaded JHP Ammo

[Dozer99]

Well here goes. From my standpoint, no it does not matter if they are hand loads or Factory ammo, IF it is a clean shoot. Many of us can hand load Hollow points into all the same brass and you'll never know they are home rolled. Take them to a lab to test and your in trouble anyways because odds are it was a questionable shoot and hand loads are the least of your worries.

I know, because I was involved in a Self defense shooting many years ago in CA. It was a justified shoot and the sheriff didn't even take my gun away (only held onto it during my time at the station). All numbers were checked, my DL and SSN were run through multiple data bases. I had hand loads in my 1911 and made mention of that. The dept DA listened in on the questioning at the station and stated "well, this a looks good to me" and left at that point. For the few years I lived in that town, I had a very good relationship with all the LEO's after that incident and reloaded for many of them. (my experience might not be the same today in CA, hence the reason I left years ago).

Moral of the story is, It better be a clean shoot!

 

[bbbass]

I'm no fan of Ayoob. But I do respect him and his experience.

But, since I don't know him personally, is he a blowhard? Are his writings overblown? Overdramatic?

I have read some of his stories/claims, but I have never read him cite the particular cases any of his stories come from... I would like that.

 

[awshoot]

...
To those who think "the truth will set them free," I submit they have not spent much time in court. It's the prosecution's and defense's version of the truth that is allowed in the courtroom.

This.

 

[awshoot]

Filling the largest extended mag with the most expensive gouge-priced commercial SD ammo costs less than 15 minutes of attorney time.

The way SD was treated decades ago -- even five years ago -- is of little informative value today.

The only "cases" for which there is ever a citation, are the ones that went on appeal and that's a small percentage. The majority of cases end after trial. These decisions aren't published in any way that is easy to look up. And even if you could scour every file in every county courthouse for verdict forms, these forms will have have almost no contextual information -- just a list of charges and an order indicating guilty or not guilty.

I have no idea if handloads are a terrible idea or not, but given the minuscule cost to use factory ammo, and the potential (not certain) astronomical costs for being wrong about handloads, I choose the factory ammo. The potential costs are so high that even if they are speculative, they aren't worth it to me.

 

[Ura-Ki]

From the way they made it sound back then - HP's would have been a no-no for me...?
I even had to fudge - nowhere in my statement did I mention it was a 'loaded' weapon I used. (didn't say it was or not - just left the inference there. Loaded weapons were a serious no - no in State Parks back then...) But they just gave an approving nod for not incriminating myself on paper for that fact - but were still needing to check some, "No HP rounds" checkbox?
One officer made the quiet remark before leaving, "Only a fool draws an unloaded weapon..." while leaving and looked back at me with a smile. I smiled back and said, "I know. But I'm no fool." He nodded back and said, "I didn't think so." Of course when they inspected my 1911 it was dry by the time they arrived.

But they did seem pretty curious about the HP thing...

I can remember about the time you mention this happening, Orygun was going through some B.S. about certain guns and calibers and bullets being verboten for Defensive use! IIRC, they specifically said the .44 Mag, Hollow points, and .22 LR were a No Go here for self defense! I can remember thinking to my self, How stupid to even have something like that as law ( IF it was even law) dead is dead, there is no such thing as more or less dead, and caliber or bullet type shouldn't have any bearing on the outcome. later, the rumors around Home rolled started and I remember thinking to my self, Here we go again with the stupids making rules!

So, I carry a big damn .45 B.P. Revolver loaded with 250 grain hollowpoints, seated over 51 grains Swiss powder, and CCI Magnum Primers on the nipples, That should really send a defense lawyer over the edge! State of the art, 1858!

 

[bbbass]

I have no idea if handloads are a terrible idea or not, but given the minuscule cost to use factory ammo, and the potential (not certain) astronomical costs for being wrong about handloads, I choose the factory ammo. The potential costs are so high that even if they are speculative, they aren't worth it to me.

Agreed.

 

[EHJ]

I can remember about the time you mention this happening, Orygun was going through some B.S. about certain guns and calibers and bullets being verboten for Defensive use! IIRC, they specifically said the .44 Mag, Hollow points, and .22 LR were a No Go here for self defense! I can remember thinking to my self, How stupid to even have something like that as law ( IF it was even law) dead is dead, there is no such thing as more or less dead, and caliber or bullet type shouldn't have any bearing on the outcome. later, the rumors around Home rolled started and I remember thinking to my self, Here we go again with the stupids making rules!

The Great Black Talon Scare.
I remember now.

 

[WillametteWill]

Since there are a few old LEO's here - I have a question that's been on my mind for 30 years now that seem pertinent...
Around '89 - '90 I was camping at Champoeg State park and had a situation. Had a crazy guy bothering us and others for a few days and by the end of the weekend he had gotten crazy enough to charge into our tent with some serious malice. He was nearly 400 lbs and very intimidating. He charged in - I drew my pistol and did all the correct yelling and commands and he immediately knew I was about to take his head off. He retreated immediately making a huge scene. The police were called - and by then the entire campground had heard the commotion and knew what was up. By the time officers arrived I had already written up a proper statement and was waiting. After a quick investigation and being cleared - the biggest question and concern was - did I have FMJ's or hollow point ammo loaded. (ball/fmj) That seemed to be the only thing they wanted to know from me. My situation was clear and ok - but they really wanted to know what my weapon was loaded with. More than anything. I always though that odd.
Sorry for the rambling - but this thread reminded me of that day.

Gosh, thanks for the "old" reference (just kidding, no offense). I wasn't in OR during that time and was still pretty new as an LEO. Believe it or not but even Cali did not have much in the way of ammo restrictions during that time other than AP handgun ammo. Let's see, late 80's. Oh yea, had just transitioned from 158 gr lead SWC in a +P 38 special to the same in a HP version. Excellent! (Keep in mind my Sheriff did actually ride a horse...and I was in a mostly urban area.)

About 1990 we transitioned to 9mm and the evil black talons followed. Don't know why they focused on your ammo but let's just say, law enforcement was...different...back then.

 

[Knebel]

"Excessive force" is what they can claim. Also, easier for them to win the civil lawsuit for untimely death.

Load your home defense rounds down, so you can argue that they have less force so that innocent bystanders wont get hurt, unlike full power law enforcement rounds

 

[osprey]

I never lose sleep over what is in my mags for carry or SD. Some have factory fodder and some home rolled, depending on platform. As far as home rolled being less reliable than factory, I have found the opposite to be true. When ammo crunches hit I will always have enough components to make ammo for protection if needed. Bottom line is use what you have access to and is most suitable for the task at hand.