"Home Defense" shotguns

[Netspirit]

Birdshot is an extremely poor choice, it was designed to bring down little birds, not hopped up or drunk 200 lb home invaders

Please follow the link above and scroll to the BB results. The larger birdshot performed very well and penetrated more than 12 inches (the FBI standard) into ballistic gel.

I would agree that extra insurance will not hurt - buckshot will provide enough penetration even if you have to shoot through a door, heavy clothing, etc. However, there are scenarios when you just cannot afford to spray large projectiles - if you live in an apartment surrounded by kids and neighbors, every buck pellet has an invisible lawyer attached to it. In those circumstances a close-range birdshot blast is way better than a knife or pepper spray, and it can be followed up with something bigger if necessary, the first shot will at least stop the attacker and make it easier to aim.

I have read a bunch of stories when people shot with birdshot indoors dropped dead immediately. In a few cases they were down but alive, but died a few weeks after since no doctor on Earth can take all those pellets out without causing even more damage, sepsis and lead poisoning are inevitable. I am yet to hear a story when some high 200lbs maniac survived a close-range birdshot blast and hurt the home owner - if you come across one, please post it. There was that Dick Cheney's story, but that was a 28ga small birdshot at 30 yards.

(I am a buckshot user myself, it remains my choice and recommendation, but I do respect birdshot loads for close combat)

 

[dracozny]

My only issue with a shotgun for home defense is the "what if" what if they have your kid or your significant other as a human shield.. or they just happen to be cornered by the bad guy when you come around with your shotgun. its a messy situation. while the shotgun does have its uses like repelling boarders of a ship in a hurry, or still attempting to break into your home in this case. If they're in your home already judicious marksmanship with a pistol or short rifle makes more sense to me.
with that being said, a semiauto is an awesome choice as long as you are damn sure its reliable enough. a pump action on a budget is a good choice too. and the whole jacking of the round noise is generally a bad idea. sure you may have them on the defensive but they know where you are and may start firing before you get them in your sights, that said in the military the mossberg among other weapons were always in condition one on the quarterdeck.

 

[Netspirit]

If they're in your home already judicious marksmanship with a pistol or short rifle makes more sense to me.

You can use a slug. It is easy to mount a laser on a shotgun next to the flashlight (Elzetta mount, for example). The barrel is long enough for a precise shot at home distances.

However, if my kid is being used as a human shield I will not shoot at them, period.

 

[dracozny]

You can use a slug. It is easy to mount a laser on a shotgun next to the flashlight (Elzetta mount, for example). The barrel is long enough for a precise shot at home distances.

However, if my kid is being used as a human shield I will not shoot at them, period.

I practice head shots for a reason, probably one of the most contrary things to my Military training. I sure as hell hope I never have to do that but I do not feel I could achieve that level of accuracy with slugs from a shotgun. I know its possible, the world record is .787" @ 100yds

 

[Blitzkrieg]

Please follow the link above and scroll to the BB results. The larger birdshot performed very well and penetrated more than 12 inches (the FBI standard) into ballistic gel.

I would agree that extra insurance will not hurt - buckshot will provide enough penetration even if you have to shoot through a door, heavy clothing, etc. However, there are scenarios when you just cannot afford to spray large projectiles - if you live in an apartment surrounded by kids and neighbors, every buck pellet has an invisible lawyer attached to it. In those circumstances a close-range birdshot blast is way better than a knife or pepper spray, and it can be followed up with something bigger if necessary, the first shot will at least stop the attacker and make it easier to aim.

I have read a bunch of stories when people shot with birdshot indoors dropped dead immediately. In a few cases they were down but alive, but died a few weeks after since no doctor on Earth can take all those pellets out without causing even more damage, sepsis and lead poisoning are inevitable. I am yet to hear a story when some high 200lbs maniac survived a close-range birdshot blast and hurt the home owner - if you come across one, please post it. There was that Dick Cheney's story, but that was a 28ga small birdshot at 30 yards.

(I am a buckshot user myself, it remains my choice and recommendation, but I do respect birdshot loads for close combat)

Since the heavier shot penetrates as far as buckshot, why use it?

If you game it right your children/wife will be behind you

 

[Nick Burkhardt]

Several sources indicate that #1 buck was superior to 00 due to the greater number of wound tracts combined with deep penetration. Home Defense Shotgun Ammo

 

[JGRuby]

I want them to know that I am armed and that they are going to have to come to me if they want me. I want that 1911 slide or pump shotgun to be heard through the whole house. I pray this doesnt happen but it has been a scenario that I have thought about many times. I am upstairs so come get me. I am prepared to stand off the bad guys on my stairs and if needed retreat to the bed room.

By the way you can pump and aim - ever shoot doubles in trap, ever bird hunt - if you are good enough while you hit that last bird yoru mind is already on that next one. It becomes instinctual. A semi does make it easier but it can certainly be done with a pump.

I have been shooting slugs out of a 12 guage 870 since I was 14 years of age. You had to use a shotgun back in the lower penissula of Michigan to hunt deer. What is the big deal with the recoil of a 12 guage? My brothers and dad all hunted deer with a shotgun. To me it sounds like a few wimps out there.

The discussion of pump versus auto to me is the same arguement of pistol versus revolver. Mechanical versus manual. I have both - to me the big difference is that there are no O rings to go bad on a pump - but even my 1100 with a bad o ring can be cycled manually. When I was a kid I deer hunted with it one year like that.

just my thoughts

James Ruby

 

[Netspirit]

What is the big deal with the recoil of a 12 guage? My brothers and dad all hunted deer with a shotgun. To me it sounds like a few wimps out there.

If recoil was not an issue, .410 bore and 28ga would not exist, 20ga and reduced-recoil 12ga loads would not be gaining popularity, 10ga would not be dying out, and 8 bore, 4 bore and 2 bore would still be in use.

2 bore - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"Among other weapons, I had an extraordinary rifle that carried a half-pound percussion shell; this instrument of torture to the hunter was not sufficiently heavy for the weight of the projectile: it only weighted twenty pounds, thus with a charge of ten drachms [270 grains] of powder and a HALF-POUND shell, the recoil was so terrific, that I spun around like a weathercock in a hurricane. I really dreaded my own rifle, although I have been accustomed to heavy charges of powder and severe recoils for some years. None of my men could fire it, and it was looked upon as a species of awe, and it was name "Jenna-El-Mootfah" (Child of a Cannon) by the Arabs, which being a far too long of a name for practice, I christened it the "Baby", and the scream of this "Baby" loaded with a half-pound shell was always fatal. It was too severe, and I seldom fired it, but it is a curious fact that I never shot a fire with that rifle without bagging. The entire practice, during several years, was confined to about twenty shots. I was afraid to use it, but now and then as it was absolutely necessary, it was cleaned after months of staying loaded. On such occasions my men had the gratification of firing it, and the explosion was always accompanied by two men falling on their backs (one having propped up the shooter) and the "Baby" flying some yards behind them. This rifle was made by Holland & Holland, of Bond Street, and I could highly recommend it for the Goliath of Gath, but not for the men of A.D. 1866.[1]"

 

[DeanMk]

I am looking at buying a shotgun, I am not a Skeet, Trap or Bird shooter, so I don't own one now. I have used some in the distant past, but never had one for myself. I had been casually looking at the different categories, Pump, Over and Under, Side by Side, Bolt, Lever, Semi-Auto, Single shot, Goose, Tactical, and Coach gun. I like the looks and nostalgia of the Coach gun and I am mindful that Side by Sides are highly recommended by or resident gun expert, Joe Biden, but I am not convinced that it is the better choice of a shotgun for home defense. I think the tactical models are a better solution, so that is where I have been looking harder. Remington and Mossberg seem to be industry leaders and of course there are more. I think I have settled on a Remington 887 Nitro Tactical for around $425. Does anyone have any Pros or Cons with this Shotgun? Is there an obviously better choice out there?

Thanks

No issues with your choice, but your local Big 5 (Hillsboro) has a <broken link removed>
Since you aren't a competition shooter or a hunter, you can sell off the 28" barrel and realize even more of a savings.
Big 5 offers this deal quite regularly.
The Mossberg 500 is a well known gun with a long reputation as a good shooter and a reliabile firearm.


Dean

 

[DeanMk]

...apologies, they also have a <broken link removed> for $229.99.
Don't know anything about the gun, so I can't speak on its reliability or usability.


Dean

 

[Nick Burkhardt]

No issues with your choice, but your local Big 5 (Hillsboro) has a <broken link removed>
Since you aren't a competition shooter or a hunter, you can sell off the 28" barrel and realize even more of a savings.
Big 5 offers this deal quite regularly.
The Mossberg 500 is a well known gun with a long reputation as a good shooter and a reliabile firearm.

Dean

BiMart has this Mossberg 500 combo at the everyday low price of $299.99. Be advised that these combo Model 50482 Mossbergs have the action rails pinned into the forend like the cheaper Maverick 88 instead of a separate metal slide tube that the standard 500 has. Also the non removable forend on that combo model is so long that it interferes with most receiver mounted sidesaddles. After you buy a new slide tube with action rails attached, a new shorter forend, and a forend nut to keep it all on, you have spent yourself a third of the way into a new shotgun.

If I had to start over from scratch, I'd get one of these MOSSBERG 500 CRUISER 12GA PISTOL GRIP SHOTGUN @ Sportsmans Outdoor Superstore: 20" with heatshield 7 + 1 shot for $299 and replace the pistol grip with a tactical stock like the Phoenix Kicklight, ATI Scorpion or Blackhawk Knoxx SpecOps Gen II.

 

[Pandaz3]

Well I already bought the 887, and I am happy with it, but I learned a good bit from this thread and if the 887 fails me.... I maybe should have gone a little slower.

 

[JGRuby]

If recoil was not an issue, .410 bore and 28ga would not exist, 20ga and reduced-recoil 12ga loads would not be gaining popularity, 10ga would not be dying out, and 8 bore, 4 bore and 2 bore would still be in use.

2 bore - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"Among other weapons, I had an extraordinary rifle that carried a half-pound percussion shell; this instrument of torture to the hunter was not sufficiently heavy for the weight of the projectile: it only weighted twenty pounds, thus with a charge of ten drachms [270 grains] of powder and a HALF-POUND shell, the recoil was so terrific, that I spun around like a weathercock in a hurricane. I really dreaded my own rifle, although I have been accustomed to heavy charges of powder and severe recoils for some years. None of my men could fire it, and it was looked upon as a species of awe, and it was name "Jenna-El-Mootfah" (Child of a Cannon) by the Arabs, which being a far too long of a name for practice, I christened it the "Baby", and the scream of this "Baby" loaded with a half-pound shell was always fatal. It was too severe, and I seldom fired it, but it is a curious fact that I never shot a fire with that rifle without bagging. The entire practice, during several years, was confined to about twenty shots. I was afraid to use it, but now and then as it was absolutely necessary, it was cleaned after months of staying loaded. On such occasions my men had the gratification of firing it, and the explosion was always accompanied by two men falling on their backs (one having propped up the shooter) and the "Baby" flying some yards behind them. This rifle was made by Holland & Holland, of Bond Street, and I could highly recommend it for the Goliath of Gath, but not for the men of A.D. 1866.[1]"

There is a big difference between a 2 bore and a 12 guage so well just ignore that part even though it makes interesting reading. The reason to me is that other guages exist are because not eveything needs the power of a 12 guage - but certainly anyone that can fire a 30-06 or 308 should be able to handle a 2 3/4 12 guage round.

James Ruby

 

[Pandaz3]

There is a big difference between a 2 bore and a 12 gauge so well just ignore that part even though it makes interesting reading. The reason to me is that other gauges exist are because not everything needs the power of a 12 gauge - but certainly anyone that can fire a 30-06 or 308 should be able to handle a 2 3/4 12 gauge round.

James Ruby

That is true enough in my case, for my own use I wanted a 12 Gauge, and of course that is what I got. I 'think' the Warden can handle it too, but I also think getting her something like the Mossberg SA-20 (Semi-Auto 20 Gauge) woulb be easier for her and make her less hesitant to use it. We each have an AR based rifle, mine a .308 and hers a .223. I think of the .308 as a excellent round for most anything, the .223 should be in a Varmint rifle with a big scope. But she can handle it very well and she might be more effective shooting .223 or 20 Gauge opposed to .308 and 12 Gauge.

 

[dracozny]

There is a big difference between a 2 bore and a 12 guage so well just ignore that part even though it makes interesting reading. The reason to me is that other guages exist are because not eveything needs the power of a 12 guage - but certainly anyone that can fire a 30-06 or 308 should be able to handle a 2 3/4 12 guage round.

James Ruby

I disagree, I have fired a Mossberg 12 Gauge, an M14 and my Super Vepr .308. and I hated the Mossberg because of the recoil. the only downside to the M14 was that steel butt plate. and My Super Vepr, I barely notice the recoil effect on my shoulder, still kicks me off target pretty good though.

 

[DeanMk]

That is true enough in my case, for my own use I wanted a 12 Gauge, and of course that is what I got. I 'think' the Warden can handle it too, but I also think getting her something like the Mossberg SA-20 (Semi-Auto 20 Gauge) woulb be easier for her and make her less hesitant to use it. We each have an AR based rifle, mine a .308 and hers a .223. I think of the .308 as a excellent round for most anything, the .223 should be in a Varmint rifle with a big scope. But she can handle it very well and she might be more effective shooting .223 or 20 Gauge opposed to .308 and 12 Gauge.

Theory can only take you so far. Take The Warden out to the range and see how she handles it.

Here's something else to consider - By going to a smaller gauge, you're robbing the shotgun of its effectiveness.
This is because a shotgun doesn't rely (solely) on the weight of the powder charge to push the projectile, but rather, the density of the shot charge that is fired from the round.
When moving to a smaller gauge, you have to also move to smaller sized shot, in order to retain the density of the round.
This is not necessarily a bad thing, as you don't necessarily need buckshot to put a hurt on someone (JMHO).
However, going with too small of a pellet may leave you in danger, in certain cases.
Retaining the pellet size in a smaller shot charge, will effect the density of the fired round. This may also leave you in danger.
Thus, I think it would be wise to stick with the largest practical gauge you can use.

One last thing about the recoil - During the situation for which the gun was meant to be used in, there's hardly any time to think, but you still need to keep your head.
This can be so much of a daunting task, that most of us fail when confronted with it...this being the case unless you train for such "emergency" situations on at least something approaching a regular basis.
My thinking is that, when confronted with that situation, she probably won't notice the recoil.
Thus, go with the 12 gauge and don't worry about it.
As for ammo, my suggestion is a regular ol' "Duck & Phesant" load with shot sized in the range of #4 to #6.
The ammo is inexpensive, easy to obtain and effective.



Dean

 

[Netspirit]

Here is some reference data:

Shells:


(.410, 28ga, 20ga, 12ga)

Gauge diameters:



Shot sizes:

When moving to a smaller gauge, you have to also move to smaller sized shot, in order to retain the density of the round. This is not necessarily a bad thing, as you don't necessarily need buckshot to put a hurt on someone (JMHO).

Buckshot #2, #3 and #4 are available in 20ga, pattern very well, will stop any non-armored target inside or near the house.

This is 20 gauge, #2 buck, 3'' shell in ballistic gel:

Thus, I think it would be wise to stick with the largest practical gauge you can use.

It is important to use it well - to be able to hold the attacker at gun point for prolonged periods of time, quickly reacquire the target, maintain/regain balance. Using it well means practicing a lot, and lower weight and recoil does encourage more practice.