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Holy Shirt!!!
- Thread Starter tac
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So I'm guessing you have heard the "internet" "facts" that Radway Green is not as hot because of the L85A1? Your comments? I take these rumors with a grain of salt as I have a 2K rounds of it and it doesn't seem any different in my AR than other NATO spec ammo.
To be honest my only experience with it was when I was in the UK and still in the military.
Ammo was ammo. At the time it was my job and not a hobby so I really didn't pay much attention to it.
I haven't had access to it over here so can't compare. Sorry for a completely uninformative post!
Ammo was ammo. At the time it was my job and not a hobby so I really didn't pay much attention to it.
I haven't had access to it over here so can't compare. Sorry for a completely uninformative post!
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- #65
The NATO standard 62gr bullet has its problems, regardless who makes it, be it RG Radway Green, DAG [actually Dynamit-Nobel], RUAG, NEM, FNM or anybody else. The critical evaluation is not secret, but common knowledge - here is part of it -
'Combat operations the past few months have again highlighted terminal performance deficiencies with 5.56x45mm 62 gr. M855 FMJ.
These problems have primarily been manifested as inadequate incapacitation of enemy forces despite their being hit multiple times by M855 bullets. These failures appear to be associated with the bullets exiting the body of the enemy [soldier] without yawing or fragmenting. This failure to yaw and fragment can be caused by reduced impact velocities as when fired from short barrel weapons or when the range increases. It can also occur when the bullets pass through only minimal tissue, such as a limb or the chest of a thin, malnourished individual, as the bullet may exit the body before it has a chance to yaw and fragment.
In addition, bullets of the SS109/M855 type are manufactured by many countries in numerous production plants. Although all SS109/M855 types must be 62 gr. FMJ bullets constructed with a steel penetrator in the nose, the composition, thickness, and relative weights of the jackets, penetrators, and cores are quite variable, as are the types and position of the cannelures. Because of the significant differences in construction between bullets within the SS109/M855 category, terminal performance is quite variable - with differences noted in yaw, fragmentation, and penetration depths. Luke Haag's papers in the AFTE Journal (33(1):11-28, Winter 2001) describe this problem. However, if the bullet is moving too slowly to reliably fragment on impact, the wound size and potential to incapacitate a person is greatly reduced. Several alternate cartridges have been developed in an attempt to address the perceived shortcomings of 5.56mm ammunition including the 6.5 mm Grendel and the 6.8 mm Remington SPC.
Recently, advances have been made in 5.56mm ammunition. The US military has adopted for limited issue a 77-grain (5.0 g) "Match" bullet, type classified as the Mk 262. The heavy, lightly constructed bullet fragments more violently at short range and also has a longer fragmentation range. Originally designed for use in the Mk 12 SPR, the ammunition has found favor with certain special forces units who were seeking a more effective cartridge to fire from their M4A1 carbines. It should be noted, however, that commercially available loadings using these heavier (and longer) bullets can be prohibitively expensive and cost much more than military surplus ammunition. Additionally, these heavy-for-caliber loadings sacrifice even more penetrative ability than the M855 round (which has a steel penetrator tip). Where M855 currently struggles to penetrate thin car doors and wood framed obstacles, the heavy bullets will do little more than spray the concealed party with bullet fragments.
Performance of 5.56x45mm military ammunition can generally be categorized as almost entirely dependent upon velocity in order to wound effectively. Heavy OTM bullets enhance soft tissue wounding ability at the expense of hard-target/barrier penetration.'
As you can see, there are problems inherent in the basic design of a varmint bullet that is being used to shoot an enemy wearing many layers of clothing, bandoliers, additional webbing, and who are usually skinny, wiry body types who do not have the bulk of muscle or tissue sufficient to upset the bullet. Well, we'll just have to fatten them up a bit, is all.
The good old 7.62x51 worked mighty well on ALL body types, as anybody who had taken a hit and survived would agree - but most I saw shot with it stayed down and definitely out of it. Personally I never had a problem using this round, but would have had great concern about using a so-called support weapon in the 5.56mm mouse-calibre at anything over 200 metres. The argument about the amount of ammunition that could be carried by an infantryman in support of his section's MG didn't seem to be of much concern to the German soldier of WW2 - many of whom could be seen with upwards of 500 rounds of 7.92 in linked belts around their persons, leaping around the battlefield like spring chickens. My own Uncle Micky [RIP], a slightly-built Saxon at 5ft 9in, was one such ammo carrier when pressed to do so. As allied survivors of WW2 will testify, being at the receiving end of Hitler's Buzzsaw - the ferocious MG42, was an experience best read about.
tac
'Combat operations the past few months have again highlighted terminal performance deficiencies with 5.56x45mm 62 gr. M855 FMJ.
These problems have primarily been manifested as inadequate incapacitation of enemy forces despite their being hit multiple times by M855 bullets. These failures appear to be associated with the bullets exiting the body of the enemy [soldier] without yawing or fragmenting. This failure to yaw and fragment can be caused by reduced impact velocities as when fired from short barrel weapons or when the range increases. It can also occur when the bullets pass through only minimal tissue, such as a limb or the chest of a thin, malnourished individual, as the bullet may exit the body before it has a chance to yaw and fragment.
In addition, bullets of the SS109/M855 type are manufactured by many countries in numerous production plants. Although all SS109/M855 types must be 62 gr. FMJ bullets constructed with a steel penetrator in the nose, the composition, thickness, and relative weights of the jackets, penetrators, and cores are quite variable, as are the types and position of the cannelures. Because of the significant differences in construction between bullets within the SS109/M855 category, terminal performance is quite variable - with differences noted in yaw, fragmentation, and penetration depths. Luke Haag's papers in the AFTE Journal (33(1):11-28, Winter 2001) describe this problem. However, if the bullet is moving too slowly to reliably fragment on impact, the wound size and potential to incapacitate a person is greatly reduced. Several alternate cartridges have been developed in an attempt to address the perceived shortcomings of 5.56mm ammunition including the 6.5 mm Grendel and the 6.8 mm Remington SPC.
Recently, advances have been made in 5.56mm ammunition. The US military has adopted for limited issue a 77-grain (5.0 g) "Match" bullet, type classified as the Mk 262. The heavy, lightly constructed bullet fragments more violently at short range and also has a longer fragmentation range. Originally designed for use in the Mk 12 SPR, the ammunition has found favor with certain special forces units who were seeking a more effective cartridge to fire from their M4A1 carbines. It should be noted, however, that commercially available loadings using these heavier (and longer) bullets can be prohibitively expensive and cost much more than military surplus ammunition. Additionally, these heavy-for-caliber loadings sacrifice even more penetrative ability than the M855 round (which has a steel penetrator tip). Where M855 currently struggles to penetrate thin car doors and wood framed obstacles, the heavy bullets will do little more than spray the concealed party with bullet fragments.
Performance of 5.56x45mm military ammunition can generally be categorized as almost entirely dependent upon velocity in order to wound effectively. Heavy OTM bullets enhance soft tissue wounding ability at the expense of hard-target/barrier penetration.'
As you can see, there are problems inherent in the basic design of a varmint bullet that is being used to shoot an enemy wearing many layers of clothing, bandoliers, additional webbing, and who are usually skinny, wiry body types who do not have the bulk of muscle or tissue sufficient to upset the bullet. Well, we'll just have to fatten them up a bit, is all.
The good old 7.62x51 worked mighty well on ALL body types, as anybody who had taken a hit and survived would agree - but most I saw shot with it stayed down and definitely out of it. Personally I never had a problem using this round, but would have had great concern about using a so-called support weapon in the 5.56mm mouse-calibre at anything over 200 metres. The argument about the amount of ammunition that could be carried by an infantryman in support of his section's MG didn't seem to be of much concern to the German soldier of WW2 - many of whom could be seen with upwards of 500 rounds of 7.92 in linked belts around their persons, leaping around the battlefield like spring chickens. My own Uncle Micky [RIP], a slightly-built Saxon at 5ft 9in, was one such ammo carrier when pressed to do so. As allied survivors of WW2 will testify, being at the receiving end of Hitler's Buzzsaw - the ferocious MG42, was an experience best read about.
tac
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tac,
You mentioned that shooting is now the second most popular sport in the UK. Do you have a link to anything online (preferably not directly connected to a gun site) that references that information?
You mentioned that shooting is now the second most popular sport in the UK. Do you have a link to anything online (preferably not directly connected to a gun site) that references that information?
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- #67
THE most popular participation sport/hobby/pastime in the UK is angling. And by active participation, I'm excluding 'sport' like football, that has miilions of fans, but far fewer less players - you can hardly count 60,000 football fans at a time as active players - however, this is a quote from -
<broken link removed>
'Shooting brings work and revenue into the countryside and contributes significantly to the UK economy - 26,300 full-time jobs in the UK are directly dependent on shooting.
The British Association for Shooting and Conservation [BASC] has over 123,000 members.
Exluding the many visitors to UK who come here for game shooting of all kinds - bird/deer and so on - over a million people take part in shooting sports every year, which is more than in rugby, hockey and ALL forms of athletics combined.'
There are over a thousand small-bore gun clubs alone in the UK - and at least another 500 or so that only shoot full-bore - the British .50cal shooters association is the largest big-bore rifle associaiton outside the USA, BTW. At Bisley yesterday I saw a vendor with a big grin on his face who had just got up-front payment for one each .338LM and .50cal 'sniper' rifles made by the German gunmaker DSR - a cool $30k worth including sights... See - <broken link removed>
Try the following sites for more information - you can search them as well as I can -
NSRA - National Small-bore Rifle Assoc
NRA - National Rifle Assoc
BASC - British Association for Shooting and Conservation
BDS - British Deer Society
MLAGB - Muzzleloading Assoc of GB
VAA -Vintage Arms Assoc
HBSA -Historical Breechloading Small Arms Association
...there are many others as well
There were over 2500 people at Bisley this weekend for the Trafalgar Meeting, BTW....
What exactly are you asking me to prove?
tac
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hey TAC...........GOT HAGGIS?
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1. Uh, no. I'm not Scottish.
2. But I AM Jewish, and haggis is offal - NOT Kosher. In fact, it's REALLY offal. We don't eat offal like you guys do. It can be offally bad for ya.
3. If you are desperate for a haggis, I'm sure that there is somebody in the North Willamette Valley who can shoot one for ya.
Meanwhile, since this has absolutely nothing whatosever to do with the initial aim of the thread, I'm moving on.
You can join me, or not [shrug].
tac
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Hey Tac thanks for the SS109 info I meant to thank you the other day and was distracted by shiny things on the net!
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you said "explain with justification" as if you agreed with the laws that restrict gun ownership and totally make illegal a lot of firearms. When there are laws that I don't agree with in the states I will explain them to people but never have I ever backed them up with "justification" of any kind.
I know that you mentioned that you hadn't had a "gun crime" since 2002, but what other crimes happened? That is much like saying that cars were very restricted and only certain people could have them and because of that we haven't had a car crash. People would still find ways to hurt themselves wouldn't they?
Here is an article on wanting a ban on knives because someone was killed by one in the UK. I'm not sure and I'm pretty sure that you don't agree with just banning things because they have potential to be used as a weapon against another person. http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1411652/posts
Another on wanting to ban swords http://www.breitbart.tv/?p=13054
All this to say that "yes" we do have problems over here in the states and yes we do have more lax weapons laws, but the two don't have to be linked. The pure and simple fact is that people are inherently evil and though some of us live by standards many do not. Those that do not will find some way to hurt someone else. That doesn't mean that it is justification to ban the object that a "few" people choose to use as a weapon.
We in the united states have the 2nd amendment to protect us not from animals or intruders or allow us to hunt (though those are good uses). We have it to protect ourselves from the government. And correct me if I'm wrong, but it was worded so that we wouldn't ever be lorded over again by government.
Every day more and more there are those that want to take that right away from us in the USA, and every day there are those that fight to keep them. The reason that we still have those rights is because for some reason we still have it in us that we fought for the freedoms that we have. I fear that one day we will forget that as a nation and fall into being more and more regulated much like what you have listed above.
I for one will fight it with everything in me, and personally if it comes to another war on our soil I will do everything in me to enlist again and fight for our freedom.
I hope that it never comes to that, but fear that someday in some way it will.
Again, I'm not arguing. Your phrasing that I'm hoping was just a mis-type "explain with justification" just got me to thinking about how many in the USA are starting to think that way as well.
Happy shooting
I know that you mentioned that you hadn't had a "gun crime" since 2002, but what other crimes happened? That is much like saying that cars were very restricted and only certain people could have them and because of that we haven't had a car crash. People would still find ways to hurt themselves wouldn't they?
Here is an article on wanting a ban on knives because someone was killed by one in the UK. I'm not sure and I'm pretty sure that you don't agree with just banning things because they have potential to be used as a weapon against another person. http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1411652/posts
Another on wanting to ban swords http://www.breitbart.tv/?p=13054
All this to say that "yes" we do have problems over here in the states and yes we do have more lax weapons laws, but the two don't have to be linked. The pure and simple fact is that people are inherently evil and though some of us live by standards many do not. Those that do not will find some way to hurt someone else. That doesn't mean that it is justification to ban the object that a "few" people choose to use as a weapon.
We in the united states have the 2nd amendment to protect us not from animals or intruders or allow us to hunt (though those are good uses). We have it to protect ourselves from the government. And correct me if I'm wrong, but it was worded so that we wouldn't ever be lorded over again by government.
Every day more and more there are those that want to take that right away from us in the USA, and every day there are those that fight to keep them. The reason that we still have those rights is because for some reason we still have it in us that we fought for the freedoms that we have. I fear that one day we will forget that as a nation and fall into being more and more regulated much like what you have listed above.
I for one will fight it with everything in me, and personally if it comes to another war on our soil I will do everything in me to enlist again and fight for our freedom.
I hope that it never comes to that, but fear that someday in some way it will.
Again, I'm not arguing. Your phrasing that I'm hoping was just a mis-type "explain with justification" just got me to thinking about how many in the USA are starting to think that way as well.
Happy shooting
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you said "explain with justification" as if you agreed with the laws that restrict gun ownership and totally make illegal a lot of firearms. When there are laws that I don't agree with in the states I will explain them to people but never have I ever backed them up with "justification" of any kind.
Sir - you appear to have totally misconstrued the words I used in an attempt to make me look like a panty-waisted 'yes-boss' - something I most certainly am not.
However, by way of explanation - here in UK the legal justification for ownership of firearms is for one of two purposes -
1. To use the firearm to shoot at paper or clay targets - that is to say - target shooting.
2. To use the firearm to shoot at vermin of one sort or another, or game, or both.
Those two REASONS to acquire are called, in THIS version of English that is spoken over here - 'justification'.
In UK law, self-defence is NOT a reason to own a firearm. That's all there is to it.
I know that you mentioned that you hadn't had a "gun crime" since 2002, but what other crimes happened?
I wrote that we had not had a gun crime since 2002 in my county. Of course, many other crimes happened, but NOT involving the use of firearms.
That is much like saying that cars were very restricted and only certain people could have them and because of that we haven't had a car crash. People would still find ways to hurt themselves wouldn't they?
This does not follow from either your or my statement. I am confining my posits to those concerning firearms.
Here is an article on wanting a ban on knives because someone was killed by one in the UK.
Knife crime here in UK is the largest killer in criminality - far outstripping ANY gun crime EVER recorded in this country. It is not the death of 'someone', as you put it, but of an ever-increasing number of inner-city knife murders. After the Government's Knives Action Programme was launched last year, there were 126 "sharp instrument homicides" between July 2008 and March 2009.
Such murders are carried out, for the most part, by males between the age of eleven and sixteen - mostly, it has to be said, black.
I'm not sure and I'm pretty sure that you don't agree with just banning things because they have potential to be used as a weapon against another person. http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1411652/posts
Please do not try to patronise or to second guess me - it does neither of us any good, and does not serve the interests of this so-far relatively informative thread. The 1997 handgun ban in mainland UK, as I have reiterated, was totally unconnected to the rise of the use of handguns in crime in this country. The legal handgun owner lost everything, but the criminal, by definition, does not obey the laws or their strictures. FYI, I was a soldier for almost 34 years - full-time, no reserve, and view criminal activity of any kind with a very jaundiced eye. Add to that that I have been a shooter since age six, and a registered firearms holder since 17 - I am now almost 64.
Another on wanting to ban swords http://www.breitbart.tv/?p=13054
You have once more failed to read the 'small print' in your attempt to trash my post. By limiting the sale of genuine or replica swords, and knives of all kinds to those persons over 18, it was hoped to reduce the numbers used in crimes by persons of those ages or lower. If any person really wants to get hold of a sword for criminal purposes, they are hardly going to walk into an antique store and pay out thousands for a real katana...
All this to say that "yes" we do have problems over here in the states and yes we do have more lax weapons laws, but the two don't have to be linked. The pure and simple fact is that people are inherently evil and though some of us live by standards many do not. Those that do not will find some way to hurt someone else. That doesn't mean that it is justification to ban the object that a "few" people choose to use as a weapon.
You are commenting as though I had never heard of the USA and its gun licencing laws, or that I am unaware that bad folks do bad things to innocent people with anything they can find that is to hand. FYI, I spent almost five years part-time teaching in a non-user-friendly part of Washington DC, and also had many tours of active duty in terrorist-ridden Northern Ireland, so what people can do to each other with seeminlgly innoccuous items of kitchenware, garden tools or home-handyman equipment from spot-welders to tank cutters and garlic presses are best left to your imagination. I, Sir, have seen a lot of it. And BTW, after the USA, Japan and Philippines, the UK buys more baseball bats than any country on the planet. For what purpose? I have never seen a baseball diamond here in UK in my life, although I guess there are some, somewhere.
We in the united states have the 2nd amendment to protect us not from animals or intruders or allow us to hunt (though those are good uses). We have it to protect ourselves from the government. And correct me if I'm wrong, but it was worded so that we wouldn't ever be lorded over again by government.
I am not posting any judgement on your current government here. I dare say that I am more familiar with your constitution than a great percentage of your population, but I would not dream of offering any correction on the contents of the US Constitution to any US citizen. Although you and many others like you seem to believe that you have the right to tear the British government to shreds on a public forum, using your constitutional right to free-speech, you should be aware that the British public are actually very good at doing it themselves, and on a daily basis, and we really don't need your help doing it.
Every day more and more there are those that want to take that right away from us in the USA, and every day there are those that fight to keep them. The reason that we still have those rights is because for some reason we still have it in us that we fought for the freedoms that we have. I fear that one day we will forget that as a nation and fall into being more and more regulated much like what you have listed above.
That, Sir, is a problem that you can correct at the polling booth.
I for one will fight it with everything in me, and personally if it comes to another war on our soil I will do everything in me to enlist again and fight for our freedom.
I hope that it never comes to that, but fear that someday in some way it will.
I have no comment to make on either your internal politics or your intentions if and when it all goes tits-up and the SHTF.
Again, I'm not arguing. Your phrasing that I'm hoping was just a mis-type "explain with justification" just got me to thinking about how many in the USA are starting to think that way as well.
Again, the remedy to that is in your own hands - I could not possibly comment. Unlike the recent visitor to your shores, Lord Monckton, and his address to you over in New York, I am neither an accredited former diplomat and ministerial advisor, nor a politician. My own personal view of your administration, and those who run it, are my own private affair, and I won't be drawn further on the subject.
Since this thread has taken a political turn, one that I am neither qualified to comment on, or to offer advice of any kind, I am now bowing out of it.
To those who responded to my thread in a positive manner, even if the positivity reflected badly on our unjust laws, thank you all.
And to those of you who took this as opportunity to do some makes-ya-feel-good and well-deserved public arse-kicking to the stuck-up and stupid Brit and the ridiculous laws he feels he has to obey, well, thank you as well.
At least I now have some idea who my likely friends are.
Take care, all, and good and safe shooting.
tac
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"Sir - you appear to have totally misconstrued the words I used to make me look like a panty-waisted 'yes-boss' - something I most certainly am not."
No I was hoping that was not what it meant and now that I go back and read it again I see that you were stating it in context of obtaining firearms legally there.
My point was not to "bash" on you in any way at all, but to point out that the banning of weapons or anything for that matter has no effect on the outcome of someone that wants to do wrong. That was the reason for my car analogy.
I agree with Trlsmn and a few others that you are making the best with what you have and I'm glad that the few that can shoot there do still even though it is hard and financially difficult in some cases.
I have worked with many that come from your neck of the woods and with them a majority were the "yes-boss" type that didn't stand up for their rights in any way shape or form. I'm glad to hear that you are not.
I also in no way meant to come across that you have no idea about our politics or laws etc etc, and yes we have some messed up states that for all I care could fall into the ocean. My point again there was not to be-little you or your home country, but to draw a line that no matter what laws or bans they will impose a "gun crime" in one case may become a "baseball bat" crime if you remove the gun. The thing that we can not control is "people". Fortunately for those of us that use our brains they haven't found a way to regulate "free will", but unfortunately for those that would commit crimes they can't take it away from them either.
Please don't take what I said as crass or putting you down. It is just an issue that we all deal with on one level or another. I think it is good that you have given clarity to those of us that didn't understand the regulation that you have. I for one found it very interesting, but again something I never want to ever deal with in this country.
No I was hoping that was not what it meant and now that I go back and read it again I see that you were stating it in context of obtaining firearms legally there.
My point was not to "bash" on you in any way at all, but to point out that the banning of weapons or anything for that matter has no effect on the outcome of someone that wants to do wrong. That was the reason for my car analogy.
I agree with Trlsmn and a few others that you are making the best with what you have and I'm glad that the few that can shoot there do still even though it is hard and financially difficult in some cases.
I have worked with many that come from your neck of the woods and with them a majority were the "yes-boss" type that didn't stand up for their rights in any way shape or form. I'm glad to hear that you are not.
I also in no way meant to come across that you have no idea about our politics or laws etc etc, and yes we have some messed up states that for all I care could fall into the ocean. My point again there was not to be-little you or your home country, but to draw a line that no matter what laws or bans they will impose a "gun crime" in one case may become a "baseball bat" crime if you remove the gun. The thing that we can not control is "people". Fortunately for those of us that use our brains they haven't found a way to regulate "free will", but unfortunately for those that would commit crimes they can't take it away from them either.
Please don't take what I said as crass or putting you down. It is just an issue that we all deal with on one level or another. I think it is good that you have given clarity to those of us that didn't understand the regulation that you have. I for one found it very interesting, but again something I never want to ever deal with in this country.
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Sir, I cannot even begin to imagine who it was that you worked with that claimed to be British - I've certainly never met your 'yes-boss' archetype. Most Brits that I know are bolshy, stand-up for rights, who-are-you-kidding types - in fact, rather like me, although I am only British because of the location of my birth.
A good while ago I joined the British army, and because of certain skills that I seemed to possess, I then went from a private soldier in a pretty special part of the British Army, and got to First Class Warrant Officer in fourteen years. Then I got commissioned, and got to Lt Col. I am not now, and never have been, a wimp 'yes-boss'.
As I noted in my response, I'm not here to castigate, criticise or even commiserate with your present situation, which, I do assure you, is as familiar to me as my own. I have been shooting over in the USA since I was six years old - I am due to become 64 next birthday, BTW.
And in addition to THIS site, I also make some contribution to five other US-based sites. I'm just letting you know what it's like over here, and how helpless we are in the face of overwhelming public antipathy and governmental ignorance and legislation.
If any of that can apply to you over there, then I'm sure that you are well able to join up the dots without me pointing you in any particular direction. Now, Sir, if you'll excuse me, I'd like to move on and learn more and and talk more about guns and shooting in a part of the world in which I have been lucky to pass a goodly proportion of my life so far - the beautiful North West Pacific.
tac
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SilverFox - please read your PM/email.
tac
tac
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Thank you Sir, received the email and back at you.
SF-
SF-
Great thread you have here. Really has busted down a lot of those myths about the UK and firearms.
You mentioned earlier.. That owning a firearm for self defense is not a valid reason to own one there. As you own several for sport shooting, I am curious about something.
If a creep kicked in your door. And he's got a machete. And you had one of your guns close by, maybe you just cleaned it after shooting. If you pull it on him, are there consequences?
If he runs at you like a raving lunatic anyways and you shoot him?
On the off chance he also has a gun, is the answer any different?
You mentioned earlier.. That owning a firearm for self defense is not a valid reason to own one there. As you own several for sport shooting, I am curious about something.
If a creep kicked in your door. And he's got a machete. And you had one of your guns close by, maybe you just cleaned it after shooting. If you pull it on him, are there consequences?
If he runs at you like a raving lunatic anyways and you shoot him?
On the off chance he also has a gun, is the answer any different?
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- #78
Great thread you have here. Really has busted down a lot of those myths about the UK and firearms.
Glad to have been a myth-buster here.
You mentioned earlier.. That owning a firearm for self defense is not a valid reason to own one there. As you own several for sport shooting, I am curious about something.
Well, I own eighteen, so in my book, at least, that's a mite more than several.
If a creep kicked in your door. And he's got a machete. And you had one of your guns close by, maybe you just cleaned it after shooting. If you pull it on him, are there consequences?
The creep, as you note, would have to be built like something special to kick in any of my doors - none of which are more than fifteen feet away from me, BTW - we live in a SMALL house. The reason for that is that most of us here, including me, have new, multi-latching security doors all round - and it would take a small truck to get in without arousing much attention. Add to that that even if he DID use a truck, he would have to push three BIG cars out of the way to get anywhere near my front door, which is also up steps. And by the way, did you LOOK at my couple of handguns back there? A Ruger Old Army takes a few minutes to load at the best of times, and as for 'pulling' my six-pound scoped Super Redhawk, I 'spose I could always use it as a club. Same deal with the Walker - Gus used one to great effect in 'Lonesome Dove' on a mouthy barkeep.
If he runs at you like a raving lunatic anyways and you shoot him?
If he really did manage to get in for some reason - and to be honest, I can't imagine why anybody would select MY house out of all the others in the street that look just the same - AND was waving a machete around in what I construed as a life-threatening manner - AND I had a loaded gun about my person for some reason - AND I shot him dead where he stood, well, I would be charged with murder. You see, arms and ammunition are kept separate by law here in UK, and having ammunition around a gun, ready to load, or even a loaded gun, would be taken in law as premeditation of murderous intent.
On the other paw, if I simply went for my nearest blade, both of which are resting on their stand about five feet away from me here, and used THEM to defend myself [like Musashi, I'm fully ambidextrous], well, that is another matter altogether, and I'd probably get away with a plea of self-defence.
On the off chance he also has a gun, is the answer any different?
If he had a gun on me, and I had empty hands and no chance of getting anything to defend myself, then he is welcome to take my antique guns. After having to shoot me for attacking him with my bare hands, that is. There is the little matter of disabling a hidden alarm and finding three sets of keys in different locations - my gun-safes are built into my house.
Of course, there is also the off-chance that I would be able to disarm him or at least break a few bits needed for locomotion, so that getting away from me would be made pretty difficult, and you can be certain that I would do so. He might even end up dead, a possibility given my near 34 years in one of the less tolerant bits of the Army where unpleasant fighting is compulsory between you and your own troops, to foster understanding and good relationships based on mutual trust and respect. It's hard to aim a gun whilst trying to remove your index finger from your eye, or your elbow from your ear. Like they say - never pi$$ off an old soldier - he's liable to kill you.
tac
Glad to have been a myth-buster here.
You mentioned earlier.. That owning a firearm for self defense is not a valid reason to own one there. As you own several for sport shooting, I am curious about something.
Well, I own eighteen, so in my book, at least, that's a mite more than several.
If a creep kicked in your door. And he's got a machete. And you had one of your guns close by, maybe you just cleaned it after shooting. If you pull it on him, are there consequences?
The creep, as you note, would have to be built like something special to kick in any of my doors - none of which are more than fifteen feet away from me, BTW - we live in a SMALL house. The reason for that is that most of us here, including me, have new, multi-latching security doors all round - and it would take a small truck to get in without arousing much attention. Add to that that even if he DID use a truck, he would have to push three BIG cars out of the way to get anywhere near my front door, which is also up steps. And by the way, did you LOOK at my couple of handguns back there? A Ruger Old Army takes a few minutes to load at the best of times, and as for 'pulling' my six-pound scoped Super Redhawk, I 'spose I could always use it as a club.
Same deal with the Walker - Gus used one to great effect in 'Lonesome Dove' on a mouthy barkeep. If he runs at you like a raving lunatic anyways and you shoot him?
If he really did manage to get in for some reason - and to be honest, I can't imagine why anybody would select MY house out of all the others in the street that look just the same - AND was waving a machete around in what I construed as a life-threatening manner - AND I had a loaded gun about my person for some reason - AND I shot him dead where he stood, well, I would be charged with murder. You see, arms and ammunition are kept separate by law here in UK, and having ammunition around a gun, ready to load, or even a loaded gun, would be taken in law as premeditation of murderous intent.
On the other paw, if I simply went for my nearest blade, both of which are resting on their stand about five feet away from me here, and used THEM to defend myself [like Musashi, I'm fully ambidextrous], well, that is another matter altogether, and I'd probably get away with a plea of self-defence.
On the off chance he also has a gun, is the answer any different?
If he had a gun on me, and I had empty hands and no chance of getting anything to defend myself, then he is welcome to take my antique guns. After having to shoot me for attacking him with my bare hands, that is. There is the little matter of disabling a hidden alarm and finding three sets of keys in different locations - my gun-safes are built into my house.
Of course, there is also the off-chance that I would be able to disarm him or at least break a few bits needed for locomotion, so that getting away from me would be made pretty difficult, and you can be certain that I would do so. He might even end up dead, a possibility given my near 34 years in one of the less tolerant bits of the Army where unpleasant fighting is compulsory between you and your own troops, to foster understanding and good relationships based on mutual trust and respect. It's hard to aim a gun whilst trying to remove your index finger from your eye, or your elbow from your ear. Like they say - never pi$$ off an old soldier - he's liable to kill you.
tac
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Truly an interesting thread. A couple of years ago I had the pleasure of beginning to teach a woman from England to fly, until I came up against the TSA prohibition, the many hoops to jump through. A delightful lady, beautiful talented and a Brit who loves the USA.
Her 15 year old son was crazy about guns, had already purchased (Straw purchase, gun held by US citizen) a Ruger P95. I took them both to the Rose city gunshow. They were like kids in a candy store! I heard a slightly different slant on gun ownership in the UK from them, in fact they are seeking citizenship here for that and other reasons.
I'm not saying that to argue with anyone, people have different takes on their own government, just stating the facts about those two lovely people.
But another fact is that gun ownership, the right to keep and bear arms, and most other traditional rights are being dissolved world wide. The UN treaties that certain people who never understood our constitution have and are signing will see to that. How it will be implemented is uncertain. We may see another swing to the right here but as Glen Beck has pointed out, the progression is toward statism, a euphemism for collectivism and fascism.
But the point is that there is really no where left to run too, we were it, but that's temporary I'm afraid. I hope to be gone by then.
Her 15 year old son was crazy about guns, had already purchased (Straw purchase, gun held by US citizen) a Ruger P95. I took them both to the Rose city gunshow. They were like kids in a candy store! I heard a slightly different slant on gun ownership in the UK from them, in fact they are seeking citizenship here for that and other reasons.
I'm not saying that to argue with anyone, people have different takes on their own government, just stating the facts about those two lovely people.
But another fact is that gun ownership, the right to keep and bear arms, and most other traditional rights are being dissolved world wide. The UN treaties that certain people who never understood our constitution have and are signing will see to that. How it will be implemented is uncertain. We may see another swing to the right here but as Glen Beck has pointed out, the progression is toward statism, a euphemism for collectivism and fascism.
But the point is that there is really no where left to run too, we were it, but that's temporary I'm afraid. I hope to be gone by then.
Thanks for the reply. I'm actually aware of the security you guys build in to your homes there. My mother has traveled there, and noted that the houses were like this. Here as you probably know, one can just kick the door in quite easily. (I've actually opened the door on my house with a few garden tools, without breaking it when I forgot my key and locked myself out in the morning.)
I keep a sword near me as well. I consider it a primary defense weapon for most occasions. I'd hate to get impaled by it, or have my body slashed open by it, just Im sure any criminal would.
But thanks for the thread, really. I do find this stuff very interesting. Rarely do I get to hear about the status of firearms in the UK, EU in general except by a neo-con ranting about how the people are subjects of tyranny.
I always figured anyways, that firearms were never a big thing in Europe. Afterall, look what happened with Dunblane as you said.. They banned the handguns after that. Yet, look at how many shootings we have had in America, and people still do stand by the right (and I do consider it a right, unless you are a violent felon, or have a diagnosed condition which severely effects your perception of reality. )
It's a sign of the culture differences in my opinion.
I keep a sword near me as well. I consider it a primary defense weapon for most occasions. I'd hate to get impaled by it, or have my body slashed open by it, just Im sure any criminal would.
But thanks for the thread, really. I do find this stuff very interesting. Rarely do I get to hear about the status of firearms in the UK, EU in general except by a neo-con ranting about how the people are subjects of tyranny.
I always figured anyways, that firearms were never a big thing in Europe. Afterall, look what happened with Dunblane as you said.. They banned the handguns after that. Yet, look at how many shootings we have had in America, and people still do stand by the right (and I do consider it a right, unless you are a violent felon, or have a diagnosed condition which severely effects your perception of reality. )
It's a sign of the culture differences in my opinion.
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