Holy Shirt!!!

[tac]

I agree, but like I said "don't take it so personal" about UK gun law questions. you come off very defensive, and maybe rightly so, but you're inviting a not so polite response...

Point taken.

BTW, did I mention that we can have moderators/silencers for anything without having to pay a tax?

...and that we can, and do, shoot all night long with night vision devices of all kinds? Y'know, infra-red illuminated, image-intensifiers gen 1-3, thermal imagers.... my pal Davey B shot nine foxes last week with a silenced and TI-equipped .204.

Sadly, apart from deer, we don't have anything much bigger to kill - we emptied our forests of bears about 2000 years ago, and we ran out of porkers about five hundred years ago, although we are steadily re-introducing them again [pigs, not bears]. We are currently about 180,000 deer overstocked - why not come over and help us reduce the numbers?

Many other Americans do...

tac

 

[Trlsmn]

Point taken.

BTW, did I mention that we can have moderators/silencers for anything without having to pay a tax?

I for one do envy the liberal attitude toward supressors in the UK.

...and that we can, and do, shoot all night long with night vision devices of all kinds? Y'know, infra-red illuminated, image-intensifiers gen 1-3, thermal imagers.... my pal Davey B shot nine foxes last week with a silenced and TI-equipped .204.

That would be inline with our own freedoms here.

Sadly, apart from deer, we don't have anything much bigger to kill - we emptied our forests of bears about 2000 years ago, and we ran out of porkers about five hundred years ago, although we are steadily re-introducing them again [pigs, not bears]. We are currently about 180,000 deer overstocked - why not come over and help us reduce the numbers?

Many other Americans do...

tac

We're not really hurting for Deer in the northwest. Last weekends haul, 80lbs mule deer meat. We have 1 more deer tag, 2 cow elk tags, and 2 bull elk tags to fill this year.








You kind of dodged my question on a technicality so allow me to redress.


OK I have a question for you. I'm Joe average citizen in London and I want own the best gun possible/permissible to keep in my home not for self defense. If you can't keep it in your home please address that and then reference the question to where you can keep it.

1. What gun will be the best possible allowed.

2. What permits, checks, certifications, permissions and fees including memberships will I be required to comply with to own said handgun, rifle etc..?

3. How long will all this paperwork and bureaucracy take start to finish?

 

[xjjeeper223]

Man, The UK sucks.

 

[isher]

Tac -

Where there's a will, there's a way, as they say.

All us easy-street Americans could garner a lesson from this.........

isher

 

[tac]

We're not really hurting for Deer in the northwest. Last weekends haul, 80lbs mule deer meat. We have 1 more deer tag, 2 cow elk tags, and 2 bull elk tags to fill this year.

I can get venison off any of my deer-shooting pals any day of the week, it's not a problem for me. Personally, I don't care for venison. I'm a target rifle shooter, not a game shooter. And like I noted, we are well-overstocked with deer here too.

You kind of dodged my question on a technicality so allow me to redress.

I did? You posited an assumption that was not secutive, so I stopped right here to save getting into an argument.

OK I have a question for you. I'm Joe average citizen in London and I want own the best gun possible/permissible to keep in my home not for self defense. If you can't keep it in your home please address that and then reference the question to where you can keep it.

Here in UK there is no other place for you to keep a firearm that is your own property, and of the usual Section 1 [that is, not prohibited] kind. It is YOUR gun, and your responsibility alone to safeguard it, and to do that you'll need a gunsafe of the approved type. That's no big deal, as all gun-safes sold here comply with the required security standards.

1. What gun will be the best possible allowed.

I know that we are both writing in English, but I don't understand this question. Best for what?

2. What permits, checks, certifications, permissions and fees including memberships will I be required to comply with to own said handgun, rifle etc..?

OK - here's the deal - you want to start target shooting, so you have to join an authorised club [there are no other kinds of club, BTW]. As a noob, you have to undertake a six-month probationary period, during which time you are taught safe gun-handling and basically, how to shoot safely, with a variety of club guns [many clubs have their own collection of guns - we have .22LR , .223Rem and .308win] and, since you are a club member with full insurance and so on, you can shoot any other club member's guns by invitation, of course. I usually take half a dozen of my poor old antiques along so the noobs can have a go with them. There are a series of written tests on safe handling and gun terminology that have to be taken by all noobs, which results in the issuing of a certificate of competency. As a club we have almost 50% of our 200+ membership actually qualified as Range Conducting officers in the NRA. We require at least two to be on the range at any time - they may not shoot whilst on duty.

After six months are up, you can apply for your own Firearms certificate, having completed all the club safety programmes and made a good impression on the membership and officials. So you get hold of the appication form and fill it out, listing the guns you would like to get, and the 'good reason' for having the permission granted - in this case, for the purpose of target shooting. The average joe might list his wants as a .22 of any kind, a .223, an underlever of a pistol calibre, a.308win and a BP revolver. The club secretary has to write a reference, as do two others who have known you for more than two years - this is done without you seeing what they have written, and they cannot be other gun club members, relatives or convicted felons. Your doctor also has to say that you are not epileptic, subject to depression or any form of diabetes that causes you to keel over at inopportune moments. You enclose your £60, and send it off to the county firearms and explosives licensing autoirity, based in the county police HQ.

Members of HM Forces who want to join a civilian gun club do NOT have to undergo the six-month probationary period, as all our soldiers are deemed to be competent in all aspects of weapon handling - they will however, be required to do all the civilian range qualification paperwork, and learn to stop shouting.

After sending in your application, and after a week or so, you'll get a visit by the FEO, who comes and has a chat to make sure that you understand the ramifications of gun ownership, and that you have told no lies on your application, and to discuss your security arrangements for storage of the guns when you get them.

Between three and six weeks later, depending on how busy they are, you'll get your FAC, endorsed with permission to acquire the following firearms and ammunition [usually limited to around 500 or so of any one calibre except .22, in which case you might, as a target rifle shooter buy it in batches of 5000 or so. This permit lasts six years, and then is renewed for £40.

Gun club fees vary - ours is £120 per year and is pretty good. As a vet who is also a fully qualified RCO and coach for able and disabled shooters, I get about 45% off that. There is no range fee, and there is subsidised 5.56 and7.62 ammunition available at VERY low cost, by our standards.

We can shoot on our open range four days a week, and on our indoor range five evenings a week. We have a very full programme of comps of all kinds, including practical shotgun - ours is one of the few ranges in UK where you can actually run a range officers specialist course on this facet of the shooting sport.

Reloading is not a problem, apart from the fact that in order to buy expanding ammunition I must have the kind of permit that shows that I have a need for it - that is, I am a game shooter. I am not, so I can't buy any expanding bullets.

3. How long will all this paperwork and bureaucracy take start to finish?

See above.

Has that answered you?

tac

 

[tac]

Man, The UK sucks.

Shall I mention Detroit, and then move on?

Right now there are about 20,000 of us sucking air with you in Afghanistan.

Like I said, we can all find things we don't like about each other's countries.

Let's keep it to guns, eh?

tac

 

[Trlsmn]

Originally Posted by Trlsmn View Post
We're not really hurting for Deer in the northwest. Last weekends haul, 80lbs mule deer meat. We have 1 more deer tag, 2 cow elk tags, and 2 bull elk tags to fill this year.

I can get venison off any of my deer-shooting pals any day of the week, it's not a problem for me. Personally, I don't care for venison. I'm a target rifle shooter, not a game shooter. And like I noted, we are well-overstocked with deer here too.

You kind of dodged my question on a technicality so allow me to redress.

I did? You posited an assumption that was not secutive, so I stopped right here to save getting into an argument.

OK I have a question for you. I'm Joe average citizen in London and I want own the best gun possible/permissible to keep in my home not for self defense. If you can't keep it in your home please address that and then reference the question to where you can keep it.

Here in UK there is no other place for you to keep a firearm that is your own property, and of the usual Section 1 [that is, not prohibited] kind. It is YOUR gun, and your responsibility alone to safeguard it, and to do that you'll need a gunsafe of the approved type. That's no big deal, as all gun-safes sold here comply with the required security standards.

1. What gun will be the best possible allowed.

I know that we are both writing in English, but I don't understand this question. Best for what?

2. What permits, checks, certifications, permissions and fees including memberships will I be required to comply with to own said handgun, rifle etc..?

OK - here's the deal - you want to start target shooting, so you have to join an authorised club [there are no other kinds of club, BTW]. As a noob, you have to undertake a six-month probationary period, during which time you are taught safe gun-handling and basically, how to shoot safely, with a variety of club guns [many clubs have their own collection of guns - we have .22LR , .223Rem and .308win] and, since you are a club member with full insurance and so on, you can shoot any other club member's guns by invitation, of course. I usually take half a dozen of my poor old antiques along so the noobs can have a go with them. There are a series of written tests on safe handling and gun terminology that have to be taken by all noobs, which results in the issuing of a certificate of competency. As a club we have almost 50% of our 200+ membership actually qualified as Range Conducting officers in the NRA. We require at least two to be on the range at any time - they may not shoot whilst on duty.

After six months are up, you can apply for your own Firearms certificate, having completed all the club safety programmes and made a good impression on the membership and officials. So you get hold of the appication form and fill it out, listing the guns you would like to get, and the 'good reason' for having the permission granted - in this case, for the purpose of target shooting. The average joe might list his wants as a .22 of any kind, a .223, an underlever of a pistol calibre, a.308win and a BP revolver. The club secretary has to write a reference, as do two others who have known you for more than two years - this is done without you seeing what they have written, and they cannot be other gun club members, relatives or convicted felons. Your doctor also has to say that you are not epileptic, subject to depression or any form of diabetes that causes you to keel over at inopportune moments. You enclose your £60, and send it off to the county firearms and explosives licensing autoirity, based in the county police HQ.

Members of HM Forces who want to join a civilian gun club do NOT have to undergo the six-month probationary period, as all our soldiers are deemed to be competent in all aspects of weapon handling - they will however, be required to do all the civilian range qualification paperwork, and learn to stop shouting.

After sending in your application, and after a week or so, you'll get a visit by the FEO, who comes and has a chat to make sure that you understand the ramifications of gun ownership, and that you have told no lies on your application, and to discuss your security arrangements for storage of the guns when you get them.

Between three and six weeks later, depending on how busy they are, you'll get your FAC, endorsed with permission to acquire the following firearms and ammunition [usually limited to around 500 or so of any one calibre except .22, in which case you might, as a target rifle shooter buy it in batches of 5000 or so. This permit lasts six years, and then is renewed for £40.

Gun club fees vary - ours is £120 per year and is pretty good. As a vet who is also a fully qualified RCO and coach for able and disabled shooters, I get about 45% off that. There is no range fee, and there is subsidised 5.56 and7.62 ammunition available at VERY low cost, by our standards.

We can shoot on our open range four days a week, and on our indoor range five evenings a week. We have a very full programme of comps of all kinds, including practical shotgun - ours is one of the few ranges in UK where you can actually run a range officers specialist course on this facet of the shooting sport.

Reloading is not a problem, apart from the fact that in order to buy expanding ammunition I must have the kind of permit that shows that I have a need for it - that is, I am a game shooter. I am not, so I can't buy any expanding bullets.

Has that answered you?

tac

Yes thank you, that is clear, comprehensive, and understandable. It is exactly what I was hoping for which was a real world look at the situation in the UK.

I know it may seem like I am holding your feet to the flame but in the end many of us have learned something from this discussion. Again thanks.


OT You posited the word "secutive", that is not a word we use in the colonies. I assume it is along the lines of prosecutive but i am curious.

 

[Chee-to]

Shall I mention Detroit, and then move on?

Right now there are about 20,000 of us sucking air with you in Afghanistan.

Like I said, we can all find things we don't like about each other's countries.

Let's keep it to guns, eh?

tac

+1...

 

[Trlsmn]

To summarize, before one can own their first firearm in the UK you will need do the following:

Invest 8 months time overall

6 months training at a gun club
2 months bureaucratic fumbling

Note from you doctor

Police residence inspection and cert.

Approx $700us in expenses


And at that point you can go out and buy a $69 Mosin Nagant because you're now broke!

 

[JUSTIficatioN]

but you CAN still own one Hey tac, I appreciate all the details on U.K. gun control, I never thought about it before your post. I always assumed they were outright banned "over there"

 

[tac]

To summarize, before one can own their first firearm in the UK you will need do the following:

Invest 8 months time overall

This includes the compulsory six months learning about guns and shooting safely with a certificate of competent gun handling at the end of it. Is that such a bad thing? I stood on a range in the US where a brand new gun owner tried to load seven rounds of .45ACP backwards into a Glock magazine while walking to the firing point from his pick-up, tearing the packaging off his pistol at the same time.

6 months training at a gun club

No, six months getting to learn the ropes about shooting in all aspects, and finding out which of many disciplines holds the most interest for you, and trying out [in our club at least] everything from the oldest to the newest in firearms.

2 months bureaucratic fumbling

Of course, there is absolutely no bureaucratic fumbling of any kind in the USA.

Note from you doctor

The 'note from your doctor' simply shows that you are mentally competent to own a potentially lethal firearm. The powers-that-be here believe that doing this will reduce the likelihood of more mass murderers of 1st grade children, or in your case, 30+ high school students, from doing their thing.

Police residence inspection and cert.

Not a police officer, but an authorised civilian checking that your location is safe to store guns - the firearms certificate is ussued by the chief constable's office of the county. Is that a bad thing? To me it beats the **** out of putting your nice black rifle or handgun, loaded, in the back of the wardrobe so the kids can play while you're out. As for certificates, well, there are already states of the union where similar certificates are enforced - I bleeve they are called FIOD or something like that.

Approx $700us in expenses

If you count the cost of a gun-safe - about $300 for three-rifle secure accommodation, and around $100 for the documentation, that leaves you $300 to spend on ammunition.

And at that point you can go out and buy a $69 Mosin Nagant because you're now broke!

Funny enough, but I don't actually know anybody here in Britain who shoots who is also 'broke'. Most folks I know who shoot, including me, can afford just about anything they care to desire. And if not, they save up for it, same as you do. I detect a certain amount of straw-clutching here - let's just agree to disagree. You take the piss out of me, my guns, my country and my way of life, and I'll ignore you.

How's that, eh?

Best wishes

tac

 

[emanon]

Tac,
I remain very appreciative of you being here and I encourage you to stick with us.

For everyone else,
I think that we can all agree that the legal situation facing potential gunowners in the UK is an undesirable one. Instead of talking crud to/about someone like Tac, why not volunteer to help change the situation over there?

On a related note, I am always interested in hearing from folks who have personal experience with and/or intimate knowledge of the gun and self-defense laws, cultures and realities of countries other than the US.

 

[tac]

but you CAN still own one Hey tac, I appreciate all the details on U.K. gun control, I never thought about it before your post. I always assumed they were outright banned "over there"

No problems here with providing information like this, but you can imagine how hard it is trying to 'explain with justification' to folks who can have anything they want, just by putting the money down and walking off with a gun.

Best

tac

 

[emanon]

tac,

I want to respond to some points you've raised. I believe that everyone who wishes to own or use firearms should take on the responsibility of learning how to do safely and appropriately. I do not agree with potential gun owners being required to prove their competency to the police / government. Additionally, there is no way that it should require even six hours for your average and even moderately intelligent person to learn and demonstrate firearms safety skills. So yes, a mandatory six month training period is extremely unreasonable!

While I can certainly understand the desire to keep firearms out of the hands of people who are dangerously mentally ill it is not like having a mandatory psychiatric evaluation guarantees that the person who passes it is and will remain competent to own/use firearms. It does however add yet another

Safe storage of firearms is also certainly a great idea. The mandatory requirement that someone be allowed into your home to verify your storage arrangements? Not a good idea and yet another burden / deterrent to potential gun owners.

Having gun ownership be primarily or exclusively reserved for the financially privileged is in no way a positive point to me - quite the opposite actually.

Of curiosity, what parts of the British Isle's do you find to be best for gun owners?

 

[tac]

tac,

I want to respond to some points you've raised. I believe that everyone who wishes to own or use firearms should take on the responsibility of learning how to do safely and appropriately. I do not agree with potential gun owners being required to prove their competency to the police / government. Additionally, there is no way that it should require even six hours for your average and even moderately intelligent person to learn and demonstrate firearms safety skills. So yes, a mandatory six month training period is extremely unreasonable!

Not my rules, pal. On the other paw, you have to understand that unless the person wishing to take up shooting was in the Armed Forces, he or she will as likely never have actually seen a real firearm of any kind in their entire lives. The six month period was an arbitrary one imposed by the government, and is no reflection on the mental acuity of the prospective gun-owner. What it does do is give the person the chance to see the wide-range of shooting disciplines available in spite of the restriction that we ALL find so onerous.

Whinemeal, we have to live with it - for sure it is NOT going to go away.
As for safe-gun handling, another thing to remember is that this is a small country, less than 3/4 the size of Oregon, with 67 million people living in it. Our ranges have safety distances that reflect the type of firearms used there, which is why we can only shoot our .50cal stuff on military ranges where there is more space. An 'over' on our range - even from a .308Win - is going to hit a house or a person. Hence the competency requirement to actually put the bullet in the sand-trap, and not into a housing estate.

While I can certainly understand the desire to keep firearms out of the hands of people who are dangerously mentally ill it is not like having a mandatory psychiatric evaluation guarantees that the person who passes it is and will remain competent to own/use firearms. It does however add yet another

Safe storage of firearms is also certainly a great idea. The mandatory requirement that someone be allowed into your home to verify your storage arrangements? Not a good idea and yet another burden / deterrent to potential gun owners.

This does not bother me in the least. So how is it a burden? Or deterrent? a deterrent to what?

Having gun ownership be primarily or exclusively reserved for the financially privileged is in no way a positive point to me - quite the opposite actually.

This statement is total BS - I never mentioned money, or, as you call it 'the financially privileged'. You must have read too much Dickens to have such a strange impression of the UK. The average earnings of the gun club membership reflect the vast range of jobs that the membership have. This morning we had on the range [and I figured out that somebody was going to ask] the following occupations -

2 x policemen
1x retired policeman
2 x retired army personnel [one S/Sgt armourer, one major in logistics]
1 x gun-store worker
2 x water treatment personnel
1 x self-employed leather worker [he makes all our shooting bags, slings gun gags and so on at a good price]
1 x retired bathroom fitter
1 x retired Baptist clergyman
5 x other retired persons, including one upholstery fitter and one Lt Col [me]
3 x fire-fighters from Blue Watch in Wellingborough
Four ladies, wives of some of the above
1 x electrical contractor and his young son
3 x noobs I don't yet know about.

Where are you millionnaires there?

ker Of curiosity, what parts of the British Isle's do you find to be best for gun owners?

Dunno really, not having spent much time in different places in the British Isles. On mainland UK we have 53 county police authorities - some are gun-friendly, some are not so friendly, but in fact that facet doesn't matter too much, you see, the wording of the firearms certificate is quite clear, but I'll emphasise it just so you get the point - 'The Chief Constable SHALL issue a Firearms Certificate' , not might, or maybe, but 'SHALL' - unless he has good reason to refuse it. And it had better be some really good reason.

In the US no convicted felon can legally own a firearm - same here.

In many parts of the USA you have to be over 21 - here in UK we have no such striction. 17 is the age here.

Is the interrogation over yet, daddy?

tac

 

[tac]

about MY antique guns. Sure, my preference is for older guns made of steel and wood, rather than wonder-plastics, good thought they might be - as yet, they don't have stories to tell, although maybe in about 50-100 years they may well do so.

So I had a look on the range this morning for yez, and THIS is what I saw, left to right, from behind -

SAKO TRG in .308
Lee-Enfield .22 Hornet
straight-pull Southern Armoury .300 whisper
Steyr AUG straight-pull
milsurp Mauser Kar98
milsurp Moisin-Nagant
Accuracy International .308
Accuracy International AW .308
Lee-Enfield No4T
SAKO Finnfire
Lee-Enfield Mk III*
Mauser ES350B .22 [mine]
Remington Rolling block .43 Egyptian
Remington 700 M24 replica
SAKO TRG in .308Win
Marlin underlever .357 [noob]
Shiloh Sharps .54
CZ .22 [noob]
Winchester Model 73 in .44LC
Remington 540
Blaser 25-06, .270, .243, .204 Ruger
Sauer 8x57
Mauser 7x57 [mine with noob]
Uberti trapdoor
Uberti yellow boy

I don't know what was on the other two ranges as I was RCO-ing this one.

tac

 

[Trlsmn]

To summarize, before one can own their first firearm in the UK you will need do the following:

Invest 8 months time overall

This includes the compulsory six months learning about guns and shooting safely with a certificate of competent gun handling at the end of it. Is that such a bad thing? I stood on a range in the US where a brand new gun owner tried to load seven rounds of .45ACP backwards into a Glock magazine while walking to the firing point from his pick-up, tearing the packaging off his pistol at the same time.

6 months training at a gun club

No, six months getting to learn the ropes about shooting in all aspects, and finding out which of many disciplines holds the most interest for you, and trying out [in our club at least] everything from the oldest to the newest in firearms.

2 months bureaucratic fumbling

Of course, there is absolutely no bureaucratic fumbling of any kind in the USA.

Note from you doctor

The 'note from your doctor' simply shows that you are mentally competent to own a potentially lethal firearm. The powers-that-be here believe that doing this will reduce the likelihood of more mass murderers of 1st grade children, or in your case, 30+ high school students, from doing their thing.

Police residence inspection and cert.

Not a police officer, but an authorised civilian checking that your location is safe to store guns - the firearms certificate is ussued by the chief constable's office of the county. Is that a bad thing? To me it beats the **** out of putting your nice black rifle or handgun, loaded, in the back of the wardrobe so the kids can play while you're out. As for certificates, well, there are already states of the union where similar certificates are enforced - I bleeve they are called FIOD or something like that.

Approx $700us in expenses

If you count the cost of a gun-safe - about $300 for three-rifle secure accommodation, and around $100 for the documentation, that leaves you $300 to spend on ammunition.

And at that point you can go out and buy a $69 Mosin Nagant because you're now broke!

Funny enough, but I don't actually know anybody here in Britain who shoots who is also 'broke'. Most folks I know who shoot, including me, can afford just about anything they care to desire.
And if not, they save up for it, same as you do. I detect a certain amount of straw-clutching here - let's just agree to disagree. You take the piss out of me, my guns, my country and my way of life, and I'll ignore you.

How's that, eh?

Best wishes

tac

Why are you getting all butt hurt? In the end my questions lead to an understanding. It was a rough summary, don't have a cow man! I've found that "brevity" is the key to summarizing. :winkkiss: Your whole and complete answers are here for those that would read them. And when have I put down your country? I like all Americans I've known consider the UK a friend.

 

[tac]

In the end my questions lead to an understanding. !

That's OK then.

tac

 

[capdek]

Hey tac,
I have a question. You mentioned in one of your posts that you need a written clearance from your physician before you can own a gun. The medical issues you mentioned could also lead to risks when driving a motor vehicle. Are you also required to get a similar type of medical clearance from your physician in order to get a driver's license?

I guess I'm wondering if the government over there is perhaps applying a double-standard. Do they really care about "safety", or are they simply trying to discourage people from owning firearms by putting as many hurdles as possible in front of gun owners?

I am convinced many of the "free" countries are trying to actively abolish the civilian ownership of firearms, and I think the U.K. is one of these countries (I'm pretty sure the UK heavily supports and funds IANSA for example). These countries can't simply ban every gun outright - that would raise the ire of a small but significant minority of decent, law-abiding, gun-owning citizens, and be seen by the majority of citizens as being too "tyrannical". However, by "educating" young people that firearms are "bad" or "dangerous", you reduce the number of future "noobs", and by putting more and more restrictions on existing gun owners, you weed out all but the most die-hard enthusiasts. Eventually, over time, the number of "noobs" decreases, the majority of "average" gun-owners sell their guns and drop-out because they're sick and tired with the ever-increasing "hassles" associated with gun ownership, and the ultra-minority of "die-hard" gun-enthusiasts die off, and you eventually reach the point where the country can ban all remaining guns outright with nary a whimper from the population. And that marks the end of civilian gun ownership in that "free" country. And as that country surreptitiously undertakes this long-term course-of-action, they keep assuring the population that they only care about "safety", and that they are not out to punish law-abiding gun-owners or take away their guns.

DEK

 

[tac]

Hey tac, I have a question. You mentioned in one of your posts that you need a written clearance from your physician before you can own a gun. The medical issues you mentioned could also lead to risks when driving a motor vehicle. Are you also required to get a similar type of medical clearance from your physician in order to get a driver's license?

Nossir, what I said was that you have to give YOUR permission for your doctor to reveal any medical problems of a mental health nature, or of a disabling nature, that might give rise to concern if you were holding a loaded gun at the time, or had ready access to one. I don't actually know anybody who has been checked in this way, but that's probably because it's entirely possible that the six months probationary period would reveal to the watching club membership that you were either a total nutter, or a serious falling-over-in-a-coma health risk. And I'm pretty certain that if any probie turned up to shoot as pissed as a newt that his chances of every being in charge of a loaded firearm would disintegrate as quickly as his club membership ticket.

I guess I'm wondering if the government over there is perhaps applying a double-standard. Do they really care about "safety", or are they simply trying to discourage people from owning firearms by putting as many hurdles as possible in front of [potential] gun owners?

Sir, you have hit the nail firmly on the head. I hope you won't be offended by my slight modification of your question/statement.

I am convinced many of the "free" countries are trying to actively abolish the civilian ownership of firearms, and I think the U.K. is one of these countries (I'm pretty sure the UK heavily supports and funds IANSA for example). These countries can't simply ban every gun outright - that would raise the ire of a small but significant minority of decent, law-abiding, gun-owning citizens, and be seen by the majority of citizens as being too "tyrannical". However, by "educating" young people that firearms are "bad" or "dangerous", you reduce the number of future "noobs", and by putting more and more restrictions on existing gun owners, you weed out all but the most die-hard enthusiasts. Eventually, over time, the number of "noobs" decreases, the majority of "average" gun-owners sell their guns and drop-out because they're sick and tired with the ever-increasing "hassles" associated with gun ownership, and the ultra-minority of "die-hard" gun-enthusiasts die off, and you eventually reach the point where the country can ban all remaining guns outright with nary a whimper from the population. And that marks the end of civilian gun ownership in that "free" country. And as that country surreptitiously undertakes this long-term course-of-action, they keep assuring the population that they only care about "safety", and that they are not out to punish law-abiding gun-owners or take away their guns.

Well, DEK, much of what you have to offer has some degree of truth, but I have to tell you, and anybody else who has stuck with this thread so far [congratulations, by the way] that shooting sports of all kinds, and in particular shot-gunning in all its disciplines, has increased year on year by at least 5% since around 2000, and is now the second [yes, second] most popular sport/hobby/pastime in the UK after football. We currently have seven junior shot-gunners who are giving the rest of Europe the run-around, and one of them is a twelve-year old boy. We have high hopes for him and the other six in the next Olympics, and a few after that, too. The current junior GB champion DTL and OT shot-gunner is a fourteen-year old girl. She has never lost a single competition since she began serious shooting at the age of eleven.

In spite of all the crap thrown at us, the general public who CAN arouse some interest are convinced that present gun laws, especially those prohibiting us from shooting competitive handguns in our own country, whilst feting foreigners who will be coming here to compete, are not only ludicrous in the extreme, but contrary to not only the spirit of the Olympic games, and actually infringe our human rights as citizens of a free democracy.

Add this to bolster my point - in 2000 our club membership, still reeling from the handgun ban, was down to 74 staunch die-hards. Now in 2009, it is almost 230, and we have a waiting list of about thirty more, and will have to have a serious restructuring of the club facilities to accommodate them all. In the same time we have had half a dozen deaths, and about ten members actually move away to other parts of the UK [and two, US service personnel, rotated back to CONUS] , but ALL of them have continued to shoot, as they are occasional visitors still. Last saturday was one of our monthly guest days, where a club member can bring along a friend or colleague to show them what he or she gets up to on the range every week [I shoot four times a week, BTW]. There were 22 visitors, of whom 15 said they would like to know a lot more about shooting sports. All of them, however, had had a great time, and when asked pointed questions about the legality of shooting sports, expressed outrage at the way we were seen by the vast majority of the general public.

Thankfully, the press in general seems to be on our side - in recent years most of the high-flying press have expressed grave doubts about the usefulness of the total handgun ban, even ridiculing the government for its stance on an Olympic sport that is worshipped in Albania for instance, but prohibited here in the 'Home of Parliament and Fair Play.

Best

tac