Help me understand?

[tac]

Shooting expenses here in yUk come primarily from taxes - 20% purchase tax on everything except children's clothing and books. So with almost everything to do with shooting having to be imported, and attracting import duty tax, you can see how the cost can mount up. Add to that it seems that most of the big dealers in the yUK are there primarily to rip the a$$ out of a growing market of people who want to shoot, and you can, I hope, see why our prices are the way they are.

Don't forget that gun sales in the USA are simply stratospheric by comparison with ANYTHING here in yUK, let alone Yoorup, as I was reminded a few years ago by talking to a very pleasant lady from Sturm, Ruger Inc. She cheerily told me that the entire annual UK sales of Ruger products in the yUK was markedly less than ONE Black Friday sales day in ONE store in Houston, TX.

Let's just run typical cost of a US manufactured firearm coming to anywhere in yUK - as an individual item, which, frankly, would rarely happen for a number of other reasons. But let's say that it is an antique long rifle of the kind favoured by AndyinEverett and others, including me, and I'm the one importing it. Such a firearm, long obsolete, would not need to be handled by the UK's version of an FFL, known here as a RFD [Registered Fireams dealer]. Nor, as in the case of any modern gun, even a replica, would it need to be compliant with the CIP laws [note, LAWS, not recommendations] and get proofed at either the London or Birmingham Proof house. That can easily add another £100.

Item x costs $1500.

It has to be shipped - let's say $100, and insured, another $50 - running total so far of $1650.

It arrives here in yUK and, because of its value, attracts, say $500 importation tax - the running total is now $2150.

All of these things are then added up for VAT - that's the sales tax I mentioned earlier - at 20% of the entire amount....total $2580.

Convert that into £ at the present rate, let's be charitable and say £1 = $1.35.

So that's £1911.00

Plus the £8 so-called Royal Mail handling charge - £1919.00

So the old rifle, that started off at $1500, would have cost me $2580.

Same goes for US-made components for reloading - I gave up shooting Berger bullets in .308Win when they hit $75/C - I've no idea what they cost now, but it sure as he** isn't going to be less. US-made powder is around $55 - 60 per 1 pound jug, but primers are something I stocked up on years ago when a LGS closed down, and I bought 5000 of each large rifle and small pistol.

Obviously, US-made optics are pricey - top-level stuff like March and the upper levels of Leupold and Nightforce included. I'm a fan of Nightforce, having used their products at another time, and in another place, so when it came to buying my 8-32x56 NSX I bit the bullet. Ten years ago, even with 10% discount, it cost me just under $2800. Rings, as usual, are from Warne. I like to supportthe genuinely PNW-based economy when I can.



Hat courtesy of Mike at Portland Bolt Inc.

I can't really comment about you not knowing about Downton Abbey and the others, except to note that you are the very first American person I've ever 'met' that has never heard of any of them. Trust me, you are good on that. I've never watched DA, and I either wasn't in the country when the other stuff was popular or I was studying for the beginning of my somewhat hectic military career.

 

[Member 34319]

Hot damn. Yep. I'm going to go buy a gun today after reading that.

What about local European guns? Same type of thing?

UK make anything to buy?

I guess I'm ignorant to a lot of your country's added hoops one must jump through. By the looks of the club pictures there is at least a size able group that are willing to go through all the various requirements to still recreationally shoot.

If we had anything here similar it would be California. Which still isn't the greatest comparison. Nothing here is relatable.

I'm uncertain of the time or areas you spent in the states. But most of them still have free areas to use for recreational shooting. No club needed. Guns, especially Rimfire guns, have always been affordable if not down right inexpensive. Essentially opening the door for just about anyone, including the poorer citizens of the states to enjoy recreational and many other forms of gun ownership.

22lr in general is not an extremely accurate round, based on the ammunition manufacturing process. It's made to be cheap here in the states. Really cheap.

So when I've been seeing more and more really expensive guns in 22lr. I have to ask, is there really a reason for these? Or is it simply marketing, which we do really well here in the states when it comes to guns, to try and fool the market into thinking because it is expensive it will shoot 22lr better?

 

[Tarawa86]

"Stop sir, I beseech you.. I apologize for calling your wife 'a bloated warthog'.. and I bid you ..good day."

 

[Member 34319]

Must of ticked a nerve or something. Lol.

At this point I'm done apologizing, your just being long winded and kind of rude assuming things that I do and do not know. What's the point of being on a forum based in the PNW from UK if you are unwilling to share experience from your country? Thats confusing to me. I never attacked you, just asked questions...

Yes, I'm fully aware of guns made in EU and imported to USA.

I was asking if EU guns were less expensive to buy in UK over those from USA. You took a rather detailed explanation of how a gun in US can cost 1k more in the UK vs US. I was curious if more localized guns are the same? The intentions of my questioning were to gain insight on whether or not it's the hoops one must jump through in Europe to be part of the shooting culture, or the costs. Sounds like both so far.

You may not have even needed to reply to this thread, but you chose to do so, you say your well informed on US shooting, but you have illustrated the opposite in my opinion. If you only know of expensive recreational shooting and hunting (as that is what it sounds like is available in the UK), how can you contrast the normal costs of things we get to purchase in the states if, from what you have been posting, it doesn't sound like it exists in the UK?

 

[tac]

The intentions of my questioning were to gain insight on whether or not it's the hoops one must jump through in Europe to be part of the shooting culture, or the costs. Sounds like both so far.

You never once asked what I had to do to actually get shooting here in UK.

 

[Member 34319]

Back to the point at hand.

My theory on expensive 22lrs, is that the market demands for a following.

A following that will defend the items purchased in a way that shames others that can not afford or choose not to purchase said item. Creating a psychological war in words.

Without that psychological warfare, the product would not have its image of luxury, therefore it would be able to acquire a higher price.

Brands do this all the time. However what they are selling doesn't always mean luxury, only that the following of the product create it's image through social constructions of wealth and class.

For instance, the Bergara I posted in the very beginning of this thread. Bergara has created an image of luxury or expensive through its other products being better than others of less money. However a Rimfire model can only be as good as the ammo, so they are using that following to sell a rifle that is not entirely better, for more money.

Another example is Sig USA, they ride on the backbone of the German heritage of finely produced products to sell their USA made counterparts at a higher price.

 

[Member 34319]

You never once asked what I had to do to actually get shooting here in UK.

I did not, but you shared some of it without me asking.

If you have in the past and wouldn't mind sharing a link to the thread, or posting more on it here. I'm certain I'm not the only one who wouldn't mind reading a first hand experience.

 

[tac]

OK, since we seem to be talking again. First of all, I'd like to say that when I started shooting at age six, but did not get my first Firearms Certificate until I was 21, just as I joined the Army. At that time the yUK had never had a mass shooting of any kind, in fact, not until 1986. The rules these days are draconian by any standards, and I'm well aware of that, since I am subject to them in order to be able to shoot at all.

Here goes - please ask questions, but any attempt at flaming will be met with silence from this end, 'kay? It might be unpalatable to anybody raised in the USA, but here it is all the LAW and not negotiable. You comply, or you take up frog-stretching or tree-fondling instead.

Here in UK[except Northern Ireland] , if you go along with a pal to his gun club as a guest [usually twelve times a year, for members to show their spousal units and pals/colleagues what they get up to], and think to yourself, WOW!!! I could get interested in THAT for sure!

Sooooooooooooooooooooooooo,

1. You join a gun-club that does the kind of shooting that you think might appeal to you. Apart from a few commercial ranges – a couple, like the Tunnel Ranges in the South West and Orion in Wales, that are open to the general rifle-shooting public in return for money, and have guns that you might shoot there, and a VERY few private individuals who have their own land and facilities, there are NO ranges that do not have gun-clubs, and NO gun-clubs that do not have ranges. No matter what kind of range it is, EVERY range in the country is an official government-sanctioned range, and EVERY gun-club is part of the National Rifle Association or National Small-bore Rifle Association. So every member of every gun-club right from the start is also a member of either or both of these two national associations, by association. That's the insurance thing settled, although you can, of course, take out private insurance with the British Association of Conservation and Shooting [BASC] as well. BASC are good to have on your side when the inevitable conflict of interests occurs - they have their own team of lawyers.

2. You then serve a three-month/six probationary period, during which you learn all about shooting lots of different guns and disciplines simply by getting to shoot lots of different guns and taking part in different shooting disciplines. Just about anything you care to mention happens here in UK, except for what I call 'proper' handgun shooting with a modern-style handgun that still LOOKS like a handgun – more of that later. Most noobs get a mite bewildered by the club members offering them lots of different guns to shoot [I have nineteen, so it can take a while], and most, at first, ask if they can pay for the ammunition. The answer to tosh like this is simple - when YOU are a full member, YOU let a noob shoot your gun, and pass it all on along, right? You CAN buy ammunition at the club, in four or five calibres, but you cannot take it away with you. THAT, friends, is a criminal offence. You can, if you wish, take empties away for future use for reloading when you get your Firearms Certificate [FAC or 'ticket']. Here in UK, and in the much of the rest of the world, an empty cartridge case is a piece of brass with a hole in one end, and not any kind of live round – unless, of course, you live in Washington DC or the Republic of Ireland. As a noob without any form of gun-owning documentation, the only guns you cannot shoot on a club range are shotguns that shoot more than three rounds, or any shotgun firing slugs, or any kind of long-barrelled handgun of the kind permitted on mainland UK. Northern Ireland does NOT subscribe to this, BTW, and you can shoot anything that another club member puts in your hand. This sad stricture is a Home Office thing, and applies to EVERYBODY on mainland GB, not just noobies/probies.

3. During this time, you are, of course, being watched like a hawk for anything odd that might give people cause for concern about your suitability to own firearms of any kind. Standing in a corner muttering to people that only you can see is a sure-fire way of NOT getting any kind of gun certificate. Notice that it is called 'certificate' and not a license. Lots of folks get confungled about that.

A certificate CERTIFIES that you are deemed to be suitable person to be allowed to acquire and possess a firearm that would otherwise be illegal to do so.

A license LICENSES you to do something that you would otherwise be unable to do legally without the benefit of that document.

Clear?

No?

Don't worry, very few of us here can tell the difference either.

So, back to the guy muttering in the corner. Many of us shooters are a mite odd, but just not THAT odd. And anyhow, shooting is a social thing - people who do it like to talk to other people about it. This is called 'instinctive teaching' or, more correctly, 'bragging'. If you don't like to talk to people, then you are most likely not a suitable candidate for any kind of shooting sport. Michael Ryan, the Hungerford mass-murderer, wasn't a member of a gun club, and didn't like people much, as he later proved by killing sixteen of them and wounding another fifteen for life. Here in yUK we like to think that the way that the FAC application form is now laid out [after a massive revision of the terms of reference and the conditions demanded in it], render this kind of appalling act of violence a lot less likely.

4. During the probationary period, you are tested, at least twice, on safety and safe handling and general knowledge on the firearms use scene.

5. At the end of the three/six months, the secretary tells you that you have done just fine [after the usual committee meeting about prospective new members], and to go ahead and fill out your application for your FAC. This can be found online - it's called an FAC1 if you want to look for yourself. In this application, you get to ask for permission to 'acquire and possess' the guns that you think that you would like to shoot.

So, your first application will be multiple firearms of the rifled-barrel type - usually a .22 rimfire rifle or carbine, a .223 centre-fire rifle or carbine, maybe a .308Win for target work, maybe a 38/357 or .44/44 underlever rifle or carbine for the sheer fun of it, or any kind of black powder firearm or rifle, carbine or handgun [of the kind permitted on mainland UK]. You also ask for as much ammunition for each gun that you think that you will need at any one time. You provide two referees who have known you for at least two years - NOT a serving police officer, or official of the club or any person with a police record. You also have to give permission for the licensing authority to ASK your GP if you are epileptic or a habitual user of hallucinogenic powders or liquids, if they feel that it's necessary. Some county authorities are requesting a letter from your doctor - one of our national associations, BASC [look it up] is fighting this imposition into our privacy. Alcoholism IS a problem, if you are a noted or documented sot, as is any record of violence, threat of violence or the threat of or use of threatening behaviour. Having such a record will usually stop your application dead in the water. Note that you will have made a 'Declaration' to the fact that you are NOT a habitual drug-user of illegal substances, or epileptic, nor in the habit of taking mind-altering meds etc, in the body of the FAC application form. Lying about this will get you 3 - 5 years pokey, as the application form is, in UK legal terms, a 'sworn document', and you will be rightly guilty of attempting to obtain a firearm/firearms by deception. Your FAC application, BTW, costs ATM £80, and is non-returnable IF, in the unlikely event, you are refused a FAC. BTW, implicit in the FAC is the fact that having been granted it in the first place, that you can reload your own ammunition, up to the legal amount you are permitted to possess for each calibre. No course is necessary for this, although the UK NRA DO run such a useful little course as a money-spinner. Looking at the the young lady who runs it is well-worth the fee, so I'm told.

6. You buy and fit a suitable gun-safe – usually made right here by Bratton who know a thing or two about such furniture. As such it conforms to the British Standards Institute requirements for domestic and professional security furniture. Nothing else than a made-for purpose gun-safe is permitted, not even, as I saw once, a refrigerator converted into a 'gun-safe' that had been painted a natty shade of Rustoleum silvery blue.

Note that the fitting of a domestic alarm is NOT a compulsory requirement, until you have around 12 or 16 Section 1 [Rifled] firearms. I live in an outlying village, so it makes sense to have at least one [I have two]. Here in UK it makes not the slightest difference in the level of police response, no matter how many and of what kinds your alarms. If you get burglarised then the police will come around the next morning, maybe flap a few bits of paper around - even take a photograph or two for the station album to show willing, give you a crime number and b&gger off. You are unlikely ever to see them or hear from the again unless your guns were stolen, in which case they get a trifle concerned, make a note of your FAC details and circulate a list of your guns around the nation.

Given the extreme unlikelihood of any self-respecting crook holding up a corner store with your 1862 Snider or F-Class target rifle and getting caught in the act, that is the last you'll ever hear of it.

When I asked if any enhanced level of response in terms of rapidity of attendance might accrue from having a monitored alarm system fitted, one wag in uniform said that tearing round to the location with 'blues and twos' alight in an immediate response to 'attend the scene of the crime' was unlikely in the extreme, since the miscreants were, at that very moment, armed, albeit with MY guns. Suffice it to say that where I live, the Chief Constable supports the idea of people having monitored alarms, in spite of the fact that the Home Office guidelines make absolutely NO mention of the necessity for fitting even a basic system. The words say ' secure accommodation', so if you have seen any UK-based crime-buster TV programmes where the boys in blue have been trying to gain access to some scumbag's dreary little domestic unit on a sh&tty estate in Buttwipeville-on-Glum, you'll have seen with your own eyes just how hard it is to gain any kind of access to a house fitted with even the most basic modern double-glazing uPVC doors and windows, let alone do it surrepticiously.

We digress.

Back to the process.......About three to twenty weeks after you submitted your application, the representative of the county police Firearms and Explosives Licensing Department, a guy called the Firearms Enquiries Officer [a civilian] comes around for coffee and biscuits/cookies, finds that you are what you say you are, checks out your safe, mentally agrees with your referees, shakes your hand and bids you good day. In our club there are four such people - invariably shooters of all kinds themselves, widely experienced in most, if not all aspects of the shooting sports, they are usually retirees from the police or military or conservation, in one case, all three. BTW, they are NOT required by their job description to be shooters of any kind, but this being a rural county, it is more likely that they will be a shooter of some kind or other. One of them has a few .22cal military-style rifles and carbines, and it's a rare day indeed that he doesn't shoot about a thousand rounds of MiniMags...

7. Eventually, your FAC plops into your mail box and off you go to the gun dealer to spend all your money on guns, and, if you want to give it a try, any and all reloading gear to get you started making your own ammunition, like 90% of all other shooters do here.

8. After a while, you give another discipline a try and find that it takes your interest, so you apply for a variation to your FAC for another firearm of the type you wish to shoot. It costs atm £40 to do this, but if you wait until renewal time, it's free. Same if you wish to swap out same calibre guns on a one-for-one basis.

9. Your FAC lasts five years and cost £80 to renew. Renewing it does not require you to justify your reasons all over again - you've already done that over the previous five years, and, in any case, anything aberrant that might cause concern has been notified to the licensing authority by the club secretary...it is not being a snitch, it is his or her legal duty to do so as part of the Home Office guidelines he or she has agreed to abide by on taking on the duty.

Any infringement of range safety that shows that you are acting irresponsibly where live firearms are concerned is, of course, a matter for everybody around you, and whereas a simple and thoughtless action such as touching your gun while folks are forward of the firing point will earn you a loud ticking off, pointing it at anybody with obvious malice will get you kicked out of the club instantly and permanently. The club secretary is obliged to inform the licensing authority without delay, and you WILL lose your FAC as a result. No club membership = no 'good reason' to own any target firearm, since that is THE condition under which you are able to acquire and possess a firearm in the fust place. Since the inception of the UK's HOLMES [yup, true], that information may have been passed to all 51 mainland county licensing departments and the PSNI, and you'll have to take up knitting.

As with most things, the more you do, the more you learn, and you improve as you get more familiar with your guns. There are always club coaches, like me, an NRA coach and former British Disabled Shooting Association instructor, to help and advise, and the opportunity for you to put something back into the club by doing an RCO course, like almost 30% of our 400+ membership has already done.

As an aside, I've been asked by an interested person if all this personal instruction/mentoring and so on costs the probie anything extra to his or her initial joining fee.

'course not. Everybody HAS to learn initially and safety is of paramount importance where firearms are concerned. It stands to reason that somebody who is safe and sure in his or her handling of guns is, uh, safe and sure...experience comes with confident handling of the firearm, and that comes with use and 'doing it' under the watchful eyeball of the person alongside you on the firing line.

The only things that cost are extra-mural courses like those run by the NRA at Bisley, and the RCO qualification course that so many of our club have successfully completed. The NRA black powder RCO course is at your expense, but it's a hoot, and well-worth the time and effort these days with so many shooters turning to BP firearms because of the sheer fascination of the things. It's also the only way that most folks on mainland UK are EVER going to hold a full-sized big-bore revolver that still looks like a big-bore revolver. It is usual to save up the number of RCO course applicants to around ten or so, and get the peripatetic NRA RCO course instructor to come to us - cheaper all round, too. We have also a number of club members who are instructors for the British Deer Society qualifications, at all three levels of expertise, but that's really outside the remit of this post, which is primarily concerned with the target-shooting aspect of shooting sports.

I've ignored Practical Shotgun so far. A fast-growing branch of the shooting sports, it requires a Section 1 [Rifled] firearm FAC, even though the shotgun is still a smoothbore, and is VERY exclusive. If you are NOT the certificate-holder, then you can't shoot it to try it out - simples. Same goes for long-barrelled handguns. Revolvers are in any calibre, as they are manually-operated, but semi-autos are, well, semi-autos, and only available in .22LR.

Hope this is useful.

As a matter of interest, one well-respected member of another forum wrote me off-post, saying -
'But I disagree that one person has the authority to kick a person out. (Secretary) The reason could simply be a personality conflict. Maybe I did not understand the total process to remove people. Maybe it is from reports by more than one member and then action by the Secretary of the Club? That would make perfect sense.'

Apart from the very obvious mention of a 'personality conflict], something I've never encountered in ANY of the gun clubs of which I've been a member, ALL of us on the range at any time with the probie are going to be VERY aware of his or her deportment around live firearms. It will be perfectly obvious, VERY early on, whether or not the person is going to be a safe pair of hands to own a gun of any kind. We can ALL talk to the club secretary, after all, at one time or other many of us have actually BEEN the club secretary. At any time there are likely to be a 50/50 split of qualified RCOs/shooters on the line. If the person displays any obvious quirks, as, indeed, one such candidate for membership did a few years back, he or she will just be advised that perhaps shooting is not for them, and earlier rather than later. This particular person came and would arrive and stand very quietly behind the line, but did not engage in conversation with anybody, although he responded when spoken to. He never offered an opinion on anything, nor did he ever engage with anybody else, except when shooting a club gun. He did it all competently, but without any obvious enjoyment, and then left without speaking, saying goodbye or KMA. He obviously suffered from some kind of social inadequacy and in THIS country, after the few mass shootings had taught us the hard way, we don't like such loners to have legal access to guns. It's best to nip it in the bud rather than say later at County Crown Coroner's court that yes, we knew he was a total dwong and wholly unsuited to owning anything more lethal than a spoon, but.......................

The decision was taken by the committee, based on the recommendations of the club secretary who is, of course, an active participant on the shooting line, just like any other club member. So WE tell him/her of our misgivings, he/she listens to us and makes his or her own mind up, and takes it to the committee who then say yea or nay. The county police HQ Firearms & Explosives Licensing Department are informed of the decision of the club committee, and the probie is asked, gently, to leave the club. There is, of course, nothing to prevent him or her from shooting an air rifle or pistol in a club that caters for that kind of shooting, or from joining an Airsoft group, or even a re-enactment group, so long a no live firearm is involved. But NOT a Section 1 [rifled] firearm or even a shotgun. Remember that part of the application involves the declaration that you are not on any kind of meds for any mind-variant condition, or epilepsy, or the kind of diabetes where you are prone to passing out with no warning. Mental illness, including clinical depression, can also be a factor here, although so far nobody has mentioned PTSD.

And lastly, after reading elsewhere about the club fees in USA, let me just add that it costs us £130.00 per year for single membership [£110 if you are an old f*rt AND a Veteran as well, and have been there for more than five years], and £180 for family membership for up to four family members. For that, we can shoot on our outdoor range every day of the week between certain hours – obviously, it gets dark even here in the northern latitudes, and up to four times a week in our separate indoor range, located in a town about three miles from our outdoor ranges.

You can see the outdoor ranges on Youtube – tacs guns. Oundle Rifle & Pistol Club is the name, folks.

 

[Wombat of Doom]

Back to the point at hand.

My theory on expensive 22lrs, is that the market demands for a following.

A following that will defend the items purchased in a way that shames others that can not afford or choose not to purchase said item. Creating a psychological war in words.

Without that psychological warfare, the product would not have its image of luxury, therefore it would be able to acquire a higher price.

Brands do this all the time. However what they are selling doesn't always mean luxury, only that the following of the product create it's image through social constructions of wealth and class.

For instance, the Bergara I posted in the very beginning of this thread. Bergara has created an image of luxury or expensive through its other products being better than others of less money. However a Rimfire model can only be as good as the ammo, so they are using that following to sell a rifle that is not entirely better, for more money.

Another example is Sig USA, they ride on the backbone of the German heritage of finely produced products to sell their USA made counterparts at a higher price.

On the other hand, my Beretta 87 is quite accurate to a level I wouldn't have thought possible with a .22. Now keep in mind I bought it way underpriced on a whim. Ragged holes at 25 yards? It will do them if you use relatively decent ammo. Some of the match grade stuff? Scary groups. Makes my buck mark look like a shotgun.

 

[SUPER X]

I need a rem 514 stock anyone have one?

 

[tac]

Compare the RPITA process that I go through with yours.

1. Go to your LGS.

2. Choose the gun.

3. Show your DL.

4. Do the check.

5. Pay the Man.

6. Walk out with the gun.

Sigh................................

 

[Member 34319]

@tac I appreciate the information.

One thing about this thread, rimfire, is that rimfire is very much a new shooters avenue. Great for tracking and getting new shooters into the culture.

With that said, and reading the post where you said the general public is not interested in the shooting sports. In your experience, have you seen any growth? Do you and members of clubs like you try to grow the sport any, or is it very taboo to speak of guns and gun ownership in the UK?

 

[tac]

@tac I appreciate the information.

One thing about this thread, rimfire, is that rimfire is very much a new shooters avenue. Great for tracking and getting new shooters into the culture.

With that said, and reading the post where you said the general public is not interested in the shooting sports. In your experience, have you seen any growth? Do you and members of clubs like you try to grow the sport any, or is it very taboo to speak of guns and gun ownership in the UK?

Shooting sports of all kinds are the fastest growing participation sport in the UK. Firearms ownership has gone up about 10% over the last eighteen months, and the trend is not slowing down.

While it's true that we don't exactly shout and scream 'I'm a shooter, come and join me', it must be quite obvious that the barriers in the way of more open access are fixed and never going to get any less. To start to shoot you must either have somehow gotten the urge to try it, or have been introduced to it by a pal or workmate. You may have gotten more interested in it from being a member of the Cadet Force, that takes youngsters at school from age 14 up to 18, in Army, Navy, Air force or combined arms. Many schools have an attached cadet force cadre.

Shooting here in yUK is a minority sport, if you take the 65 million population, with only around 2.5 million shooters of Section 1 [rifled] firearms of all kinds, including a literally unknown number of shotgunners who are either shotgunners because they farm, or because the hunt birds or simply shoot at clays. My county police have issued firearms certificates to almost 4000 people, and 19,000 shtgun certificates. as for shotgunners, nationwide there may well be 6 million of them, but since they only need one piece of paper to authorise the purchase of any number of shotguns, we are never going to know for sure. the thing about applying for a shotgun certificate is that providing you meet the criteria - over 18 and no criminal record which involves more than 6 months in prison, you can have it. IF the police refuse you, they must provide evidence to show their reasoning. I don't know anybody who has been refused, but then, I don't necessarily move in the circles where I would know people who are likely refusees. I may have mentioned it before, but my main interests are trains and shooting, so my circle of acquaintances tends to consist of people who do one or the other, to the exception of all others.

It is not taboo in any way to talk about guns and shooting - it is, after all, an international sport at which the yUK exels, and has done for over 150 years. But then, we tend to move in prescribed circles, where we know each other - well, I do - and everybody I know also knows that I shoot. It's not a topic of conversation that you strike up with a stranger here in yUK. TBH, we don't actually DO much talking about our hobbies and pastimes to strangers. However, if asked, I'm quite happy to tell people that I shoot for fun, and let the conversation go on from there. On the odd occasion that it HAS progressed, the other person usually asks me what it's all about, and I tell them in basic terms. Note that in all the years, only one person has ever said to me that they disagreed with people having free and easy access to guns. I pointed out that MY guns, like those of every LEGAL gun owner in the country, were securely locked up in purpose-made gun-safes when not in use, but there really is really is no answer to that, so I changed the topic.

I agree totally that rimfire is a new shooter's gun. It is a surefire way of teaching newcomers all the necessary skills and mindset needed to be a successful shooter with ANY calibre that they might progress to, but I admit that I know nobody who doesn't have at least one rimfire, no matter what else they have. I have seven, one of which was bought by my dad in 1930 and on which I learned to shoot all those years ago.

When the noob gets their own gun, it is likely to be a ,22 rimfire of some kind and format and if they go down the NRSA target route, that mostly means buying second-hand in order to be able to afford something that will at least offer them some kind of chance of being competitive. Luckily, the recent crop of beginners' .22 target rifles starts at around £600 here in UK, cheap enough for you to be able to pass it on with few regrets if you find that .22 target is not your thing. .22 BR, OTOH, can be shot in the light sporter category, and just needs something like a basic CZ and scope of around x6 - easy to find for about £300 here in UK where almost everybody who shoots a .22 has a CZ of some kind [except me].

Does that answer most of your questions?

If not, please don't hesitate to ask more. I realised many years ago that much of what I come out with is totally alien to most Americans, who are used to being citizens of a nation where the safeguarding of the right to keep and bear arms is protected by a written document - no other nation of earth has a similar protected right.

It needs some getting used to to talk to a person who apparently looks, walks, talks, and thinks like you but has a totally different set of laws that rules their possession of things that you just take for granted.

 

[Member 34319]

%10 is more than I was thinking in my head. That's exciting to hear.

I had to convert that £600 to $ to find it's not a whole horrible amount more in dollars. Something like $640.

From my readings, and your posts, it sounds like 700-1000 Euros and about a year or two of prerequisites gets you into shooting in the UK. That is very similar to the costs of buying an adequately priced gun in the states and joining a club. Unlike the UK however, in the US, owning just one gun doesn't require a club membership. Most gun owners are not like you and I where multiple guns are in our safes.

Im certain you are aware of the fact that here in the states, we also have a lot of public lands that are completely open to recreational shooting. Some states even have state/city/county owned public shooting ranges that are developed and open to the public without a membership requirement or any financial contribution. Some are very nice. UTAH has quite a few very nice public ranges. My home state of Nevada had a really nice public range outside of Carson City, not to mention tons of public lands where recreational shooting is legal and free.

Combine that with the plethora of inexpensive but quality Rimfire firearms we have to choose from in the states, one can get into rimfire shooting for as little as $100-$150 dollars. This was my contrast I was trying to illustrate so poorly earlier. I made a poor example of using improper wording, but I was trying to state that, at least in the states, getting going with a 22lr can be done for a drastically different amount of money and prerequisites.

When coming full circle to high end 22lrs, this is what I tend to think about. That and the Market Placebo Affect I mentioned earlier. Your examples of higher priced 22lr is mostly because their is not a less expensive alternative? If there is please correct me, but from what I've read and learned in the brief amount of time researching, is that even getting started with something like 22lr in UK can be quite expensive vs here in the states. That was all I was trying to point out. I was not trying to paint you as a wealthy aristocratic.

As for my point at hand, here in the states, getting started in 22lr can done relatively inexpensively, and with the ammo truly being the culprit in terms of potential accuracy, why spend the extra $ on a expensive 22lr rifle. You can only chamber and rifle a barrel so many ways.

Hope this paints the picture to my confusion on these high end rifles, in the states, a bit better.

 

[Mikej]

OK, since we seem to be talking again. First of all, I'd like to say that when I started shooting at age six, but did not get my first Firearms Certificate until I was 21, just as I joined the Army. At that time the yUK had never had a mass shooting of any kind, in fact, not until 1986. The rules these days are draconian by any standards, and I'm well aware of that, since I am subject to them in order to be able to shoot at all.

Here goes - please ask questions, but any attempt at flaming will be met with silence from this end, 'kay? It might be unpalatable to anybody raised in the USA, but here it is all the LAW and not negotiable. You comply, or you take up frog-stretching or tree-fondling instead.

Here in UK[except Northern Ireland] , if you go along with a pal to his gun club as a guest [usually twelve times a year, for members to show their spousal units and pals/colleagues what they get up to], and think to yourself, WOW!!! I could get interested in THAT for sure!

Sooooooooooooooooooooooooo,

1. You join a gun-club that does the kind of shooting that you think might appeal to you. Apart from a few commercial ranges – a couple, like the Tunnel Ranges in the South West and Orion in Wales, that are open to the general rifle-shooting public in return for money, and have guns that you might shoot there, and a VERY few private individuals who have their own land and facilities, there are NO ranges that do not have gun-clubs, and NO gun-clubs that do not have ranges. No matter what kind of range it is, EVERY range in the country is an official government-sanctioned range, and EVERY gun-club is part of the National Rifle Association or National Small-bore Rifle Association. So every member of every gun-club right from the start is also a member of either or both of these two national associations, by association. That's the insurance thing settled, although you can, of course, take out private insurance with the British Association of Conservation and Shooting [BASC] as well. BASC are good to have on your side when the inevitable conflict of interests occurs - they have their own team of lawyers.

2. You then serve a three-month/six probationary period, during which you learn all about shooting lots of different guns and disciplines simply by getting to shoot lots of different guns and taking part in different shooting disciplines. Just about anything you care to mention happens here in UK, except for what I call 'proper' handgun shooting with a modern-style handgun that still LOOKS like a handgun – more of that later. Most noobs get a mite bewildered by the club members offering them lots of different guns to shoot [I have nineteen, so it can take a while], and most, at first, ask if they can pay for the ammunition. The answer to tosh like this is simple - when YOU are a full member, YOU let a noob shoot your gun, and pass it all on along, right? You CAN buy ammunition at the club, in four or five calibres, but you cannot take it away with you. THAT, friends, is a criminal offence. You can, if you wish, take empties away for future use for reloading when you get your Firearms Certificate [FAC or 'ticket']. Here in UK, and in the much of the rest of the world, an empty cartridge case is a piece of brass with a hole in one end, and not any kind of live round – unless, of course, you live in Washington DC or the Republic of Ireland. As a noob without any form of gun-owning documentation, the only guns you cannot shoot on a club range are shotguns that shoot more than three rounds, or any shotgun firing slugs, or any kind of long-barrelled handgun of the kind permitted on mainland UK. Northern Ireland does NOT subscribe to this, BTW, and you can shoot anything that another club member puts in your hand. This sad stricture is a Home Office thing, and applies to EVERYBODY on mainland GB, not just noobies/probies.

3. During this time, you are, of course, being watched like a hawk for anything odd that might give people cause for concern about your suitability to own firearms of any kind. Standing in a corner muttering to people that only you can see is a sure-fire way of NOT getting any kind of gun certificate. Notice that it is called 'certificate' and not a license. Lots of folks get confungled about that.

A certificate CERTIFIES that you are deemed to be suitable person to be allowed to acquire and possess a firearm that would otherwise be illegal to do so.

A license LICENSES you to do something that you would otherwise be unable to do legally without the benefit of that document.

Clear?

No?

Don't worry, very few of us here can tell the difference either.

So, back to the guy muttering in the corner. Many of us shooters are a mite odd, but just not THAT odd. And anyhow, shooting is a social thing - people who do it like to talk to other people about it. This is called 'instinctive teaching' or, more correctly, 'bragging'. If you don't like to talk to people, then you are most likely not a suitable candidate for any kind of shooting sport. Michael Ryan, the Hungerford mass-murderer, wasn't a member of a gun club, and didn't like people much, as he later proved by killing sixteen of them and wounding another fifteen for life. Here in yUK we like to think that the way that the FAC application form is now laid out [after a massive revision of the terms of reference and the conditions demanded in it], render this kind of appalling act of violence a lot less likely.

4. During the probationary period, you are tested, at least twice, on safety and safe handling and general knowledge on the firearms use scene.

5. At the end of the three/six months, the secretary tells you that you have done just fine [after the usual committee meeting about prospective new members], and to go ahead and fill out your application for your FAC. This can be found online - it's called an FAC1 if you want to look for yourself. In this application, you get to ask for permission to 'acquire and possess' the guns that you think that you would like to shoot.

So, your first application will be multiple firearms of the rifled-barrel type - usually a .22 rimfire rifle or carbine, a .223 centre-fire rifle or carbine, maybe a .308Win for target work, maybe a 38/357 or .44/44 underlever rifle or carbine for the sheer fun of it, or any kind of black powder firearm or rifle, carbine or handgun [of the kind permitted on mainland UK]. You also ask for as much ammunition for each gun that you think that you will need at any one time. You provide two referees who have known you for at least two years - NOT a serving police officer, or official of the club or any person with a police record. You also have to give permission for the licensing authority to ASK your GP if you are epileptic or a habitual user of hallucinogenic powders or liquids, if they feel that it's necessary. Some county authorities are requesting a letter from your doctor - one of our national associations, BASC [look it up] is fighting this imposition into our privacy. Alcoholism IS a problem, if you are a noted or documented sot, as is any record of violence, threat of violence or the threat of or use of threatening behaviour. Having such a record will usually stop your application dead in the water. Note that you will have made a 'Declaration' to the fact that you are NOT a habitual drug-user of illegal substances, or epileptic, nor in the habit of taking mind-altering meds etc, in the body of the FAC application form. Lying about this will get you 3 - 5 years pokey, as the application form is, in UK legal terms, a 'sworn document', and you will be rightly guilty of attempting to obtain a firearm/firearms by deception. Your FAC application, BTW, costs ATM £80, and is non-returnable IF, in the unlikely event, you are refused a FAC. BTW, implicit in the FAC is the fact that having been granted it in the first place, that you can reload your own ammunition, up to the legal amount you are permitted to possess for each calibre. No course is necessary for this, although the UK NRA DO run such a useful little course as a money-spinner. Looking at the the young lady who runs it is well-worth the fee, so I'm told.

6. You buy and fit a suitable gun-safe – usually made right here by Bratton who know a thing or two about such furniture. As such it conforms to the British Standards Institute requirements for domestic and professional security furniture. Nothing else than a made-for purpose gun-safe is permitted, not even, as I saw once, a refrigerator converted into a 'gun-safe' that had been painted a natty shade of Rustoleum silvery blue.

Note that the fitting of a domestic alarm is NOT a compulsory requirement, until you have around 12 or 16 Section 1 [Rifled] firearms. I live in an outlying village, so it makes sense to have at least one [I have two]. Here in UK it makes not the slightest difference in the level of police response, no matter how many and of what kinds your alarms. If you get burglarised then the police will come around the next morning, maybe flap a few bits of paper around - even take a photograph or two for the station album to show willing, give you a crime number and b&gger off. You are unlikely ever to see them or hear from the again unless your guns were stolen, in which case they get a trifle concerned, make a note of your FAC details and circulate a list of your guns around the nation.

Given the extreme unlikelihood of any self-respecting crook holding up a corner store with your 1862 Snider or F-Class target rifle and getting caught in the act, that is the last you'll ever hear of it.

When I asked if any enhanced level of response in terms of rapidity of attendance might accrue from having a monitored alarm system fitted, one wag in uniform said that tearing round to the location with 'blues and twos' alight in an immediate response to 'attend the scene of the crime' was unlikely in the extreme, since the miscreants were, at that very moment, armed, albeit with MY guns. Suffice it to say that where I live, the Chief Constable supports the idea of people having monitored alarms, in spite of the fact that the Home Office guidelines make absolutely NO mention of the necessity for fitting even a basic system. The words say ' secure accommodation', so if you have seen any UK-based crime-buster TV programmes where the boys in blue have been trying to gain access to some scumbag's dreary little domestic unit on a sh&tty estate in Buttwipeville-on-Glum, you'll have seen with your own eyes just how hard it is to gain any kind of access to a house fitted with even the most basic modern double-glazing uPVC doors and windows, let alone do it surrepticiously.

We digress.

Back to the process.......About three to twenty weeks after you submitted your application, the representative of the county police Firearms and Explosives Licensing Department, a guy called the Firearms Enquiries Officer [a civilian] comes around for coffee and biscuits/cookies, finds that you are what you say you are, checks out your safe, mentally agrees with your referees, shakes your hand and bids you good day. In our club there are four such people - invariably shooters of all kinds themselves, widely experienced in most, if not all aspects of the shooting sports, they are usually retirees from the police or military or conservation, in one case, all three. BTW, they are NOT required by their job description to be shooters of any kind, but this being a rural county, it is more likely that they will be a shooter of some kind or other. One of them has a few .22cal military-style rifles and carbines, and it's a rare day indeed that he doesn't shoot about a thousand rounds of MiniMags...

7. Eventually, your FAC plops into your mail box and off you go to the gun dealer to spend all your money on guns, and, if you want to give it a try, any and all reloading gear to get you started making your own ammunition, like 90% of all other shooters do here.

8. After a while, you give another discipline a try and find that it takes your interest, so you apply for a variation to your FAC for another firearm of the type you wish to shoot. It costs atm £40 to do this, but if you wait until renewal time, it's free. Same if you wish to swap out same calibre guns on a one-for-one basis.

9. Your FAC lasts five years and cost £80 to renew. Renewing it does not require you to justify your reasons all over again - you've already done that over the previous five years, and, in any case, anything aberrant that might cause concern has been notified to the licensing authority by the club secretary...it is not being a snitch, it is his or her legal duty to do so as part of the Home Office guidelines he or she has agreed to abide by on taking on the duty.

Any infringement of range safety that shows that you are acting irresponsibly where live firearms are concerned is, of course, a matter for everybody around you, and whereas a simple and thoughtless action such as touching your gun while folks are forward of the firing point will earn you a loud ticking off, pointing it at anybody with obvious malice will get you kicked out of the club instantly and permanently. The club secretary is obliged to inform the licensing authority without delay, and you WILL lose your FAC as a result. No club membership = no 'good reason' to own any target firearm, since that is THE condition under which you are able to acquire and possess a firearm in the fust place. Since the inception of the UK's HOLMES [yup, true], that information may have been passed to all 51 mainland county licensing departments and the PSNI, and you'll have to take up knitting.

As with most things, the more you do, the more you learn, and you improve as you get more familiar with your guns. There are always club coaches, like me, an NRA coach and former British Disabled Shooting Association instructor, to help and advise, and the opportunity for you to put something back into the club by doing an RCO course, like almost 30% of our 400+ membership has already done.

As an aside, I've been asked by an interested person if all this personal instruction/mentoring and so on costs the probie anything extra to his or her initial joining fee.

'course not. Everybody HAS to learn initially and safety is of paramount importance where firearms are concerned. It stands to reason that somebody who is safe and sure in his or her handling of guns is, uh, safe and sure...experience comes with confident handling of the firearm, and that comes with use and 'doing it' under the watchful eyeball of the person alongside you on the firing line.

The only things that cost are extra-mural courses like those run by the NRA at Bisley, and the RCO qualification course that so many of our club have successfully completed. The NRA black powder RCO course is at your expense, but it's a hoot, and well-worth the time and effort these days with so many shooters turning to BP firearms because of the sheer fascination of the things. It's also the only way that most folks on mainland UK are EVER going to hold a full-sized big-bore revolver that still looks like a big-bore revolver. It is usual to save up the number of RCO course applicants to around ten or so, and get the peripatetic NRA RCO course instructor to come to us - cheaper all round, too. We have also a number of club members who are instructors for the British Deer Society qualifications, at all three levels of expertise, but that's really outside the remit of this post, which is primarily concerned with the target-shooting aspect of shooting sports.

I've ignored Practical Shotgun so far. A fast-growing branch of the shooting sports, it requires a Section 1 [Rifled] firearm FAC, even though the shotgun is still a smoothbore, and is VERY exclusive. If you are NOT the certificate-holder, then you can't shoot it to try it out - simples. Same goes for long-barrelled handguns. Revolvers are in any calibre, as they are manually-operated, but semi-autos are, well, semi-autos, and only available in .22LR.

Hope this is useful.

As a matter of interest, one well-respected member of another forum wrote me off-post, saying -
'But I disagree that one person has the authority to kick a person out. (Secretary) The reason could simply be a personality conflict. Maybe I did not understand the total process to remove people. Maybe it is from reports by more than one member and then action by the Secretary of the Club? That would make perfect sense.'

Apart from the very obvious mention of a 'personality conflict], something I've never encountered in ANY of the gun clubs of which I've been a member, ALL of us on the range at any time with the probie are going to be VERY aware of his or her deportment around live firearms. It will be perfectly obvious, VERY early on, whether or not the person is going to be a safe pair of hands to own a gun of any kind. We can ALL talk to the club secretary, after all, at one time or other many of us have actually BEEN the club secretary. At any time there are likely to be a 50/50 split of qualified RCOs/shooters on the line. If the person displays any obvious quirks, as, indeed, one such candidate for membership did a few years back, he or she will just be advised that perhaps shooting is not for them, and earlier rather than later. This particular person came and would arrive and stand very quietly behind the line, but did not engage in conversation with anybody, although he responded when spoken to. He never offered an opinion on anything, nor did he ever engage with anybody else, except when shooting a club gun. He did it all competently, but without any obvious enjoyment, and then left without speaking, saying goodbye or KMA. He obviously suffered from some kind of social inadequacy and in THIS country, after the few mass shootings had taught us the hard way, we don't like such loners to have legal access to guns. It's best to nip it in the bud rather than say later at County Crown Coroner's court that yes, we knew he was a total dwong and wholly unsuited to owning anything more lethal than a spoon, but.......................

The decision was taken by the committee, based on the recommendations of the club secretary who is, of course, an active participant on the shooting line, just like any other club member. So WE tell him/her of our misgivings, he/she listens to us and makes his or her own mind up, and takes it to the committee who then say yea or nay. The county police HQ Firearms & Explosives Licensing Department are informed of the decision of the club committee, and the probie is asked, gently, to leave the club. There is, of course, nothing to prevent him or her from shooting an air rifle or pistol in a club that caters for that kind of shooting, or from joining an Airsoft group, or even a re-enactment group, so long a no live firearm is involved. But NOT a Section 1 [rifled] firearm or even a shotgun. Remember that part of the application involves the declaration that you are not on any kind of meds for any mind-variant condition, or epilepsy, or the kind of diabetes where you are prone to passing out with no warning. Mental illness, including clinical depression, can also be a factor here, although so far nobody has mentioned PTSD.

And lastly, after reading elsewhere about the club fees in USA, let me just add that it costs us £130.00 per year for single membership [£110 if you are an old f*rt AND a Veteran as well, and have been there for more than five years], and £180 for family membership for up to four family members. For that, we can shoot on our outdoor range every day of the week between certain hours – obviously, it gets dark even here in the northern latitudes, and up to four times a week in our separate indoor range, located in a town about three miles from our outdoor ranges.

You can see the outdoor ranges on Youtube – tacs guns. Oundle Rifle & Pistol Club is the name, folks.

You've posted this before tac, I read it and found it interesting. Reading again, now, makes me feel like the folks reading the novel "1984" must have felt when it was published in June 1949.

 

[tac]

You've posted this before tac, I read it and found it interesting. Reading again, now, makes me feel like the folks reading the novel "1984" must have felt when it was published in June 1949.

Mike, I reposted it because I was pretty certain that Reno had not seen it. Little has changed since it was first posted, except that we have 'dodged the bullet' of the ban on .50cal BMG rifles - all forty of them.

@Reno - I may have posted this here before, but I started going to the US when I was 12, and I'm now 73 3/4, so you can see that I'm quite familiar with the way that guns and land and shooting go together. I'm lucky enough to have good friends that I shoot with while we are over in Oregon on our annual trips, too.

As for costs in UK, even the Ruger 10/22, one of THE most popular little rifles ever to get made, is around $650 here - see below. And here we think it's cheap. One or two companies here can build you a full 1500-type 10/22 race-gun that has maybe two screws of the original remaining and set you back around $2000 + - your choice.

I've already mentioned that even starting with a .22 target rifle that costs around £600 here [you calculated incorrectly BTW, the pound - not the Euro - is worth $1.32 - so it's $792] is considered cheap here. Plus all the gear you'll need to go with it - glove, shooting jacket sling - another possibly $600- 1000.

Most popular bolt-action starter rifles here in .22 are the CZ-series - around £500 - $660. I already mentioned that you can buy one second-hand, likely with a scope, for around £300 -350.

It MUST have occurred to you by now that the cost of living here in the yUK is generally a lot higher than it is in a one-for-one even-level US environment. One of the things we enjoy so much about the USA is just how cheaply we can live there better than here on a lot less money. A lot of the extra cost in yUK is based on the cost of our transportation fuel - not too long ago diesel was hovering at just under $10 a gallon.

So it;s really not worth any more calculating, except as a 'look at us' and 'look at them' exercise. Summing up - we have to spend lot more than you do to do the same things, where there are similar things to do.

If you look at it simplistically, the way that we have done over the last many years, just change the currency sign when looking at merchandise in US-v-yUK.


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Add to that that you can buy as much ammunition as you can safely store - we can't. You get ammo deals - we don't.

And buy it by internet - we can't, all ammunition is sold face-to-face only. As are ANY firearms.

 

[Member 34319]

Im afraid to ask now...

How much is a typical beer at a bar?

Im in the dark when it comes to Europe in general, I know little if not nothing about the way of life in the UK. I'm thoroughly enjoying reading everything you have posted. It is very informative and interesting to me. I want to thank you for the continued conversation. I've always just speculated that life there is rather comparable to parts of the US. That's how they make it sound via our media sources at least.

Im getting the picture that recreational shooting in the UK is very different than the USA. Which is very interesting to me as many critics like to use your country as an example of how things should be here in the states. Reading your posts and the small amount of research I've done over the last few days, I understand why they are saying that now.

Theoretical question.

Do you think, having spent the time you have spent in the shooting culture in UK, that if lesser expensive guns where available more folks would consider going through the processes to shoot?

Much like silencers here in the states have come down in costs drastically, putting them within reach of many that didn't see it as a worthwhile process. Now, millions of them are in circulation.

 

[Mikej]

Mike, I reposted it because I was pretty certain that Reno had not seen it. Little has changed since it was first posted, except that we have 'dodged the bullet' of the ban on .50cal BMG rifles - all forty of them.

I enjoyed reading it again tac. It should be read by all gun owners in America, a couple of times a year.

 

[tac]

Im afraid to ask now...

How much is a typical beer at a bar?

Well, you have to remember that we live out in the sticks, in a rural agricultural county with just three cities - Cambridge, Peterborough and Ely. We don't go out much, let alone to bars, but around here, a pint of beer is usually around £3.80 - £4.00. Don't ask me about anything else drinkish, as I don't touch alcohol and never have. In the big cities, say London, it can cost you around £6 - 8 a pint, depending on the type of drinking establishment we are talking about. There are categorically NO bars like you have in the USA - different culture, see?

Im in the dark when it comes to Europe in general, I know little if not nothing about the way of life in the UK. I'm thoroughly enjoying reading everything you have posted. It is very informative and interesting to me. I want to thank you for the continued conversation. I've always just speculated that life there is rather comparable to parts of the US. That's how they make it sound via our media sources at least.

Sure it's the same, at least where the basic language is concerned, but even THAT can be very different than your understanding of English as you've heard it spoken. Going to the Northwest or East, you'd be hard-pushed to recognise what they are saying as English of any kind. Again, it depends on who you talk to. A farm labourer in Co. durham is almost incomprehensible twenty miles west of his house, let alone to a furriner. There are some good guides to spoken English on Youtube, BTW., as well as a LOT of complete dreck. Going to Wales might be the biggest shock you''ll get here, as they have their own language, mostly spoken in the North and less so in the South. Fel plentyn dysgais Gymraeg gan fy nhad-cu, yr oedd ei deulu i gyd yn Gymry Cymraeg. Fel y gwelwch, mae'n hollol wahanol i Saesneg!! (As a child I learned Welsh from my grandfather, whose family were all Welsh-speakers. As you can see, it is totally different to English!!}

Im getting the picture that recreational shooting in the UK is very different than the USA. Which is very interesting to me as many critics like to use your country as an example of how things should be here in the states. Reading your posts and the small amount of research I've done over the last few days, I understand why they are saying that now.

You are talking here to a person who joined the NRA on July 4th 1976. BTW, I live here, indeed was born here, but this is not really my country - I'm only 1/8th British from my half-English grandmother!

Theoretical question.

Do you think, having spent the time you have spent in the shooting culture in UK, that if lesser expensive guns where available more folks would consider going through the processes to shoot?

Reno, there ARE less expensive guns here in yUK - it's just that YOUR idea of less expensive and ours are at entirely different price-points! To us, the £450-500 CZ whatever represents incredible value for money, as do the various Rugers, 10/22 and Model 77 [? - have I got that right?]

Much like silencers here in the states have come down in costs drastically, putting them within reach of many that didn't see it as a worthwhile process. Now, millions of them are in circulation.

Unlike the USA, there is no tax on moderators here. In fact, there are locations where their use is compulsory, because of the risk of frightening livestock, or upsetting people nearby. Remember, too, that about 50% of ALL our pest control is carried out at night, using IR and TI systems AND rifles with mods. there is only ONE top predator left in the UK - the fox - and it's open shooting all year round on him. No deer tags, either. The only thing about a mod here is that it has to be entered on your FAC, having been authorised, but I've never heard of anybody being refused.

 

[Mikej]

Im getting the picture that recreational shooting in the UK is very different than the USA. Which is very interesting to me as many critics like to use your country as an example of how things should be here in the states. Reading your posts and the small amount of research I've done over the last few days, I understand why they are saying that now.

You know what I took from reading tac's post that I hadn't though about before? Those guys over there, like here in America, would seem to be some of the friendliest you'd ever meet. The way a noob to the club looking to get into shooting has everyone in the club step forward to teach him/her. the picture in my mind of all those guys bring their prized rifles to the noob to try out. That's a great picture! When I got into firearms, just 10 years ago, I found some of the nicest folks I ever met. It sounds like the government allows the previously vetted gun owners in the UK to be involved in guiding the new guy into their ranks. Their club scene is quite impressive.