Health Care with a Side of Gun Control

[Sawdust]

Amen Stomper.

Great post.

 

[Joe Link]

Guys, I see this thread being relevant, but I want to remind you to keep it firearm related

 

[fromotoc]

Guys, I see this thread being relevant, but I want to remind you to keep it firearm related

OK so which gun would you shoot the health care bill with?

 

[CEF1959]

The last half-dozen threads remind me of something said at the NRA convention in 1980 regarding the upcoming election between Reagan and Carter:

"If Reagan ain't elected, this country will go communist just like yer China and yer Cuba. It's a documented fact. I've knowd it was coming ever since they started putting fluoridation in the water."

Thankfully, we narrowly averted a communist takeover by electing Reagan. I was worried I'd have to learn Russian, and I'm bad at languages. And to think, the quoted guy from the NRA convention was riduculed as a rightwing nutcase at the time. How terribly unfair.

Some people just hate freedom or are secret communists. If you give them an inch, you'll have fluoride in your water, a ban on all private gun ownership, and self-serve gas. Next thing you know, all your underwear belongs to the collective and your daughter has to breed with whomever the leader says, probably some swarthy guy, if you know what I mean. ::wink wink::

Yes, indeed, citizens, the world is full of slippery slopes, and we can't go down any of them lest we face cultural annihilation.

 

[fingolfen]

I disagree that it is too early to get excited. Every great storm starts out as a small change in the wind. Best case you’re dealing with “the law of unintended consequences.” For example – city puts in cameras at stop lights to keep people from running red lights. Unintended consequence, an increase in rear end collisions at intersections as people slam on their brakes to avoid running the light on camera. Worst case is you’re dealing with a part of a larger stepwise plan.

At this point in the U.S. there is no Federal Registration of gun owners / firearms (though they’re trying). Lots of other groups seem to think they have a right to know if you have a firearm – many of them not friendly to your firearm rights. The underlying point that I think is being lost is quite simple – you only truly have individual freedom where there is individual responsibility. The more responsibilities and aspects of our lives the government takes over and manages, the fewer rights and freedoms we’ll have.

It always starts out as a “service,” but the promises made to pass the “service” are forgotten within a few years. Remember how Social Security was supposed to be self-funding? Remember how your Social Security Number was only supposed to be used by the Social Security Administration itself? Remember how the Great Society was supposed to be a hand-up not a hand-out?

In this case we already have medical organizations discouraging gun ownership and trying to track gun owners. We see the same thing from groups like the Violence Policy Center – they want to attack our firearm rights on “public health” grounds. Right now that’s difficult because there is some separation of powers – the government doesn’t supply health care. What would change if the government took on that portion of the economy?

Bottom line is if you don’t think it can happen here, you need to get your head out of the sand. The foundation is already laid.

 

[CEF1959]

Not all slopes are slippery. If you freak out at every little breeze blowing, you end up being a freaked out person.

And if you are opposed to a revision of the health care system in the US, please just be honest in your criticisms, rather than trying to scare people into thinking that it will result in a gun ban. Sheesh.

 

[slickx45]

Not all slopes are slippery. If you freak out at every little breeze blowing, you end up being a freaked out person.

And if you are opposed to a revision of the health care system in the US, please just be honest in your criticisms, rather than trying to scare people into thinking that it will result in a gun ban. Sheesh.

I think the point you are missing is that there is a difference between being aware of a possibility and "freaking out" about it. Nothing I have read here suggests that anyone is "freaking out" but merely keeping people aware of things that could potentially impact them in some way.

Your own analogy about the rabid dog in another county would be more accurate if the rabid dog was of a particular breed, one that you happen to own, and there had long been murmurings about banning the breed of dog. You might not "freak out" and go into total lock down as you suggested, but you would likely pay close attention to what was going on with regards to that. I think that is all that anyone is saying here, pay attention to what is going on around us.

 

[Scott]

The last half-dozen threads remind me of something said at the NRA convention in 1980 regarding the upcoming election between Reagan and Carter:

"If Reagan ain't elected, this country will go communist just like yer China and yer Cuba. It's a documented fact. I've knowd it was coming ever since they started putting fluoridation in the water."

Thankfully, we narrowly averted a communist takeover by electing Reagan. I was worried I'd have to learn Russian, and I'm bad at languages. And to think, the quoted guy from the NRA convention was riduculed as a rightwing nutcase at the time. How terribly unfair.

Some people just hate freedom or are secret communists. If you give them an inch, you'll have fluoride in your water, a ban on all private gun ownership, and self-serve gas. Next thing you know, all your underwear belongs to the collective and your daughter has to breed with whomever the leader says, probably some swarthy guy, if you know what I mean. ::wink wink::

Yes, indeed, citizens, the world is full of slippery slopes, and we can't go down any of them lest we face cultural annihilation.

You speak of learning different languages and we all most all have to speak something else. Everything I buy a manual and it is written in almost all languages except for english which is usally the last page. Most forms I see are all in Russian, Spanish, or some form of Asian language. So you are right we need to learn different languages. Tax forms now come in foreign languages and almost everything I read I have to go to the end to be able to read. So maybe your post is not that far off.

 

[Jamie6.5]

And some continue to serve up the kool-aide.
Sleep conservative sleep,... No need for vigilance,...
Your big brother is here to watch over you,..........................

 

[Stomper]

Not all slopes are slippery. If you freak out at every little breeze blowing, you end up being a freaked out person.

And if you are opposed to a revision of the health care system in the US, please just be honest in your criticisms, rather than trying to scare people into thinking that it will result in a gun ban. Sheesh.

1. ALL slopes are slippery when you are talking about the U.S. Government taking over ANY aspect of our lives...

2. Nobody is "freaking out"... its called "connecting the dots", based on the PROVEN track record of the players.

3. I ABSOLUTELY despise the very notion of single-payer, government-run health care....


Happy now?

 

[fingolfen]

Not all slopes are slippery. If you freak out at every little breeze blowing, you end up being a freaked out person.

And if you are opposed to a revision of the health care system in the US, please just be honest in your criticisms, rather than trying to scare people into thinking that it will result in a gun ban. Sheesh.

When it comes to health care, I'm all for reform in several areas. I'm not for a government take-over. Nor am I advocating that we "freak out" over every breeze. I am advocating good weather forecasting, though.

Yet you seem to be advocating we look at issues in a vacuum. We've done that for years in this country – much to our chagrin.

I merely pointed out one example of where that's led / is leading in another country. I and others have pointed out that the same framework making guns a "public health issue" has already been laid by anti-gun groups here, and now politicians very friendly to those self-same groups are proposing what amounts to a government take-over of our health care system. It's not scare tactics. I'm simply saying if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's most likely a duck.

 

[CEF1959]

Somebody point me to a provision in any of the current administration's health care overhaul legislation that would in any way restrict gun rights.

Or is some Euro-reform proposal that's never even likely to become law in Europe all you've got to support this tenuous connection between health care reform and gun rights?

[Oh, and please spare me the wild-eyed rhetoric that goes like this: "Come on, you know they are all communists out to destroy America and kill our babies. If you disagree you have swallowed the socialist kool aid." You are entitled to that point of view, but it's not on point here.]

 

[fingolfen]

Somebody point me to a provision in any of the current administration's health care overhaul legislation that would in any way restrict gun rights.

Or is some Euro-reform proposal that's never even likely to become law in Europe all you've got to support this tenuous connection between health care reform and gun rights?

[Oh, and please spare me the wild-eyed rhetoric that goes like this: "Come on, you know they are all communists out to destroy America and kill our babies. If you disagree you have swallowed the socialist kool aid." You are entitled to that point of view, but it's not on point here.]

Don't have to, that's not the crux of the argument. The point I'm making is regardless of what the proposals are NOW... TODAY... there will be intended and unintended consequences down the road. Even a cursory examination of the stated position of Medical Professional groups (IN THIS COUNTRY) and anti-Second groups (IN THIS COUNTRY) show that they would like to make "public health" an axis of attack against our gun rights.

... but let's play it your way... let's say that the current health plan goes through. Have you noticed how many advisory and oversight bodies there are in the current proposal? Who do you think will be filling those positions??? I'll tell you who - the same people who have already stated their anti-gun views - only now they'll actually have some real authority.

Will it result in an immediate gun ban? No... of course not... but it opens up a whole fresh front for people to attack our rights - while allowing the government to gobble up 1/6th of the economy - at the same time increasing the deficit and debt.

Sounds like a bad idea all around to me...

 

[el gringo loco]

I hate to be the one to point this out, but the current healthcare debate is about individual care and how we pay for it. "Public Health" as a field of medicine is, for the most part, already a government function(CDC, FDA, county health dept). The anti-gun folks can make it a public health issue and involve the government with no healthcare reform.

As an aside, our healthcare system stinks. We are one of the only 1st world countries without national healthcare. We pay more for it than anyone else and there are 27 countries with better life expectancies (and national healthcare). We need to realize that, unlike when we were growing up, America is not always the best anymore. We have rested on our laurels for a long time and other countries have passed us in many areas. There is a better way to do healthcare.

The conservative ethos where everyonepays their own way and takes personal responsibility only works in a vacuum. The fact is, for that method of cost control to work, you have to flat out turn away the uninsured and let them die.

 

[JumpWing]

Some folks need the dam to burst before they admit those cracks early on should have been tended to.

Government gets bigger, not smaller. It doesn't maintain power and control, it accumulates more. It doesn't take a genius to understand that firearms are already linked to health and safety, and Obamacare will expand on this. The connection between the two is hardly tenuous.

People seem to labor under the illusion that their 2A right is somehow rock solid and isn't going anywhere. I would remind them that I had to pay money and get permission from the government before I could exercise my 2A right.

There are people who freak out disproportionately to a potential problem, but they are just as useless as those who try to play "cool" by suggesting that anyone who voices a concern is also "freaking out."

 

[capdek]

I don't know why it is so hard to believe that the president of the United States may be a Marxist, when we have so many Marxists now coming out of the closet. They are no longer afraid to say it... case in point: Congresswoman Diane Watson D-CA, 33rd District.




Here's a recording of her saying EXACTLY THAT on youtube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5VaY4Fc3YkM&feature=related




Why is it so hard for people to believe that there is a Marxist revolution going on in this country? You don't believe it can happen here? More information for your consideration...



You have Van Jones, the "Green Jobs" Czar who describes himself as a "Community Organizer within the Federal Family". He is/was a part of the group, "STORM"... Standing Together to Organize Revolutionary Movements... they had/have study groups studying Marxists and Leninists ideas, as well has historical affects and tactics of communist movements in 3rd world countries.



You have Mark Lloyd who is the FCC "Diversity" Czar who thinks what Hugo Chavez did in Venezuela as an "Incredible Revolution"... that Chavez wouldn't have been thwarted the first time on his revolution if he would have had control of the radio stations and the television stations. He took it seriously the 2nd time around, and took control of all the media. Lloyd thinks the goverment should control ALL media in the USA...


There are almost THREE DOZEN Czars appointed by Obama. I find it fitting that they are radical Marxists.


You have Senator Jay Rockefeller D-WV who has recently introduced legislation that will allow a presidential ability to take control of the Internet and shut it down. The leftist in this country FIRMLY have the broadcast media in their pocket, they are trying to take on cable and satellite newsfeeds, as well as radio and the Internet, buy they have never been able to resonate in those mediums like Conservatisim has... so they will just sieze and control it since they can't compete in the arena of ideas. "... Rockefeller on video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ct9xzXUQLuY



The classic way for totalitarianism to advance is by use of "crisis" or "nemesis"...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WX0_5uhu8XI&feature=related





You have Congresswoman Maxine Waters D-CA, 35th District:

ON VIDEO saying to "evil" oil company execs,

Here's a couple links to the youtube vides... the 2nd one has a rather funny edit in the middle...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o3I-PVVowFY&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OrA9zj94NuU&feature=related


You want to talk about Rep. Nancy Pelosi D-CA, Rep. Barabara Boxer D-CA, and Michelle Obama next? I'd mention Sen. Ted Kennedy D-MA, but he can't hurt this country anymore.


These people in power are broadcasting LOUD AND CLEAR what they intend to do (and are doing). BTW- a LOT of this stuff was started in the Bush adminstration (and beyond)... I assume you were against what he was doing to errode our civil and Constitutional rights back then under the "guise" of the Patriot Act... why not now under Obama? I smell "Partisan Hypocrisy"...






Now to (somewhat) tie it back to the OP in this thread...


To quote Ronald Regan...



You don't think that "private" database on who answers those firearms questions at the docrtor's office won't be used by the goverment if they "take control and run" the medical establishment? You're foolish if you don't.


PLEASE... for God's sake, pull the cotton out of your ears, take the blinders from your eyes and DON'T replace them with rose colored glasses. The "powers that be" want us to fight amongst ourselves, they want the fires of partisan hatred to be stoked... to keep our eyes off the real game being played. This isn't about "Republicans", "Democrats", "Conservatives", or "Liberals".... it's about standing as AMERICANS on the basic, fundamental principals of our Constitution and drawing a line in the sand and declaring, YOU SHALL NOT PASS!!

This country can NEVER be conquered by foriegn armies.. they don't need to, the domestic enemies are doing it for them... the enemies are within the gates already. Americans take their liberty and freedoms for granted. Your rights were purchased in blood, maintained in blood, and are being sold out on paper. I have suffered for this country, I have fought for this country, I have KILLED for this country... now I see it dying on the vine, and its breaking my heart like its never been broken before.


You can poo-poo all of this as paranoid, partisan, discredited, unreliable, etc... that's your right (at the moment).

Paranoid am I? Take a deep breath & wait shall I? I think not.

Thank God for American patriots like Stomper!

I was watching some Glenn Beck video this evening on Fox over the web and he was talking about Obama's "Green Jobs" czar Van Jones. This man is a race-baiting communist - plain and simple. He is actually on video saying that white people are poisoning people of color, and that the entire agriculture and energy systems need to be completely overhauled. Go to Fox and see for yourself. It is downright frightening!
The appointment of someone like Van Jones is just one more example of either (a) President Obama's poor judgement or (b) his true agenda for America. And we are supposed to trust this man and his supporters in Congress to reform our health care system?

 

[dynarider]

it's 2 in the morning so forgive my grammar there is a saying that if you put a frog in a pot of boiling water he will immediatly jump out but if you put him in a pot of luke warm water and slowly turn up the heat he will sit there and boil. Moral to story don't sit and let them turn up the heat until it's to late

 

[Stomper]

Somebody point me to a provision in any of the current administration's health care overhaul legislation that would in any way restrict gun rights.

Or is some Euro-reform proposal that's never even likely to become law in Europe all you've got to support this tenuous connection between health care reform and gun rights?

[Oh, and please spare me the wild-eyed rhetoric that goes like this: "Come on, you know they are all communists out to destroy America and kill our babies. If you disagree you have swallowed the socialist kool aid." You are entitled to that point of view, but it's not on point here.]

Like Mike said... "unintended" consequences... and if "Euro-Trash" laws and medical systems are so flippin' great, why to they come in DROVES from other countries to get their needs taken care of because they can't in their "communal paradises" there? You can be rest assured that gun control will be ushered in under the guise of "public health", and if you surrender your freedoms to the government to "take care" of you, they WILL dictate the conditions... they have a PROVEN TRACK RECORD of doing just that in EVERYTHING they touch... WAKE UP!

Granted, our medical system is NOT perfect... want to take a stab at some of the CORE causes besides the same old TIRED lefty argument of "corporate greed"? Try your "precious" government's meddling... stiffling competition by not allowing out of state companies to compete for your business, MANDATORY procedures in policies instead of "pick and choose" so the CONSUMER can control their costs via customized policies (I don't need an annual PAP Smear or mamograms, but I pay for it anyway)... they all started out with "good intentions" but ended in "unintended consuquenses"... and not the least of them... TORT REFORM! Fully 40% of all malpractice lawsuits are FRIVOLOUS... its cheaper to settle than to fight it... THE LOSER SHOULD PAY ALL COURT COST!! FYI- ALL of that can be fixed WITHOUT Progressive "cradle to the grave" intrusion.

The "you know they're all just commies" is NOT rhetoric... they are SELF-AVOWED communists, from their own mouths. I just LOVE how "lefties" trot out the same old tired & smug tactics... "oh you're just freaking out, you're just unstable, you're crazy, you're irrational, you need medication"... Nobody here EVER said "the commies want to kill your/our babies"... quite contrary, they need future slaves to work in the rice paddies so we can ALL BE GREEN donchaknow... you only THINK that you think.

If this crapola SERIOUSLY hits the fan and passes... you'll get EXACTLY what you deserve, slavery via your denial and the likes of Geo. Soros & friends as your masters... too bad it will be your CHILDREN who will pay the highest price in the future.


Your freedom can only be taken from you if you LET THEM... WAKE UP!!!

 

[CEF1959]

This is great stuff, Stomper. Please go on.

 

[Sawdust]

Stomper,

Very well said.

Thank you.