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Howdy EGL,

Are you sure of that which you have written?
I'm for incremental health care reform (not this bill) but this bill stinks in so many ways, and one of them is what you have commented on.
I highly doubt that forcing such a thing on the people is even constitutionally legal. :confused:

Nonetheless, if this bill passes I'm betting the manure hits the fan in a big way all over this country.
Talk about a way to drive even more people into the underground economy, this is the way to do it.
Just like what has happened in Kalifornia as a result of layer upon layer of taxes, fees, and permit costs. Studies by left and right leaning think tanks have out Kalifornia's underground economy at somewhere near 1/3 of the legitimate economy. more than enough to pay that state's bills.
But when you burden a society with some many taxes and fees to where people are working long hours to just survive they start doing showing only enough income to cover their documented costs and no more.

But, hopefully the people who make the primary difference in elections in this country (centrists & independents) will vote out those that are doing this to us. :s0155:


More government is never better government

Again, my point was, whether you like this legislation or not, that the "fine" for not getting health insurance was carefully crafted to make it unlikely that very many would oppose it and, those that do, will not be presented with an opportunity to be a martyr. You don't have to like it. It is just the way it is.

I do not like the mandate to buy health insurance and I agree that it may prove to be unconstitutional. I do not like this bill. However, mostly that is because I am for single payer or flat out socialized medicine--just like the two dozen or so other industrialized nations with better life expectancies and cheaper healthcare costs than the USA. I know this opinion will not be popular here and that is why I was just sticking to discussing to what the bill is and what it is not.

The bill IS NOT a government takeover. That's closer to what I wanted and this bill does not come close. I disagree with the premise that "More government is never better government." I might be persuaded to agree with "More government power and authority is rarely better government." Our nation started with very little in the way of government and, good or bad, has progressed to where we are today. When we were founded, we did not have any agency to protect consumers, no real defense department, no agency to build and manage a network of highways, no agency to investigate crimes, no national parks, no social security, no medicare, no ________......and the list goes on and on. Many folks have a few items on this list that they do not like, but I think anyone would have a hard time making the case that several of these expansions of government were not and continue to be good decisions. Would we still be a free nation if we still fought our wars with Letters of Marque and state militias? Would we be better off if we had no ability to travel interstate on safe roads along coordinated routes?

We could have a long debate about this because it is obvious that we have very different political philosophies. I love snacking on an arugula salad, sipping northwest microbrews and talking about guns and politics. Sometimes I am swayed to re-evaluate my position and sometimes I get someone else to look at the issue differently. Most of the time we walk away agreeing to disagree.
 
$100 lol where did you get that number. They are talking about 1-2k fines for not signing up. They want us to all join the program and pay into it thats how it works. Do you seriously think they fine 100 dollars. so the 150 million people who decide "oh F**k this im not signing up pay the 100 dollars and go on there way...". Hmm equals out to what like 15 billion in fines, thats not going to pay for the 1-2 Trillion dollars they are planing on spending.

This is plain finnacial slavery.

After reading you comment, I re-read where I had gotten that number and I realized that the number I was looking at was for a specific situation. However, this is the real number from a reputable and conservative source:
<broken link removed>
Under the reconciliation bill, individuals who don’t purchase insurance would be subject to a fine of $325 in 2015 and $695 in 2016, compared with $495 and $750 in the original Senate bill. Individuals may be subject to a charge equal to as much as 2.5 percent of their income in 2016, if the total is greater than the flat payment, a change from 2 percent in the Senate version.
 
Again, my point was, whether you like this legislation or not, that the "fine" for not getting health insurance was carefully crafted to make it unlikely that very many would oppose it and, those that do, will not be presented with an opportunity to be a martyr. You don't have to like it. It is just the way it is.

I do not like the mandate to buy health insurance and I agree that it may prove to be unconstitutional. I do not like this bill. However, mostly that is because I am for single payer or flat out socialized medicine--just like the two dozen or so other industrialized nations with better life expectancies and cheaper healthcare costs than the USA. I know this opinion will not be popular here and that is why I was just sticking to discussing to what the bill is and what it is not.

The bill IS NOT a government takeover. That's closer to what I wanted and this bill does not come close. I disagree with the premise that "More government is never better government." I might be persuaded to agree with "More government power and authority is rarely better government." Our nation started with very little in the way of government and, good or bad, has progressed to where we are today. When we were founded, we did not have any agency to protect consumers, no real defense department, no agency to build and manage a network of highways, no agency to investigate crimes, no national parks, no social security, no medicare, no ________......and the list goes on and on. Many folks have a few items on this list that they do not like, but I think anyone would have a hard time making the case that several of these expansions of government were not and continue to be good decisions. Would we still be a free nation if we still fought our wars with Letters of Marque and state militias? Would we be better off if we had no ability to travel interstate on safe roads along coordinated routes?

We could have a long debate about this because it is obvious that we have very different political philosophies. I love snacking on an arugula salad, sipping northwest microbrews and talking about guns and politics. Sometimes I am swayed to re-evaluate my position and sometimes I get someone else to look at the issue differently. Most of the time we walk away agreeing to disagree.

Boy - would I like to be there when you have that A-HA moment, the lightning bolt strikes, and you wake up. Governments are only good at stealing and killing their citizens. Name one government program that operates efficiently and benefits the citizen (that doesn't involve stealing or killing)- I dare you. Medicare/Medicaid - BROKE, Social Security - BROKE, Fannie Mae/Freddie Mac - BROKE, USPS - BROKE, Govt/Military Retirement Programs - BROKE - All looted so that the government could steal your money and give it to the already obscenely rich. This healthcare boondoggle is only more of the same - a new way to increase taxes to steal more from you because they need something new because they have already raped everything else. The same for the carbon tax scam that you may not be paying attention to. All your money are belong to the government - how dare you want to have anything for yourself? You must do with less so they can have more - it's only fair.
 
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Boy - would I like to be there when you have that A-HA moment, the lightning bolt strikes, and you wake up. Governments are only good at stealing and killing their citizens. Name one government program that operates efficiently and benefits the citizen (that doesn't involve stealing or killing)- I dare you. Medicare/Medicaid - BROKE, Social Security - BROKE, Fannie Mae/Freddie Mac - BROKE, USPS - BROKE, Govt/Military Retirement Programs - BROKE - All looted so that the government could steal your money and give it to the already obscenely rich. This healthcare boondoggle is only more of the same - a new way to increase taxes to steal more from you because they need something new because they have already raped everything else. The same for the carbon tax scam that you may not be paying attention to. All your money are belong to the government - how dare you want to have anything for yourself? You must do with less so they can have more - it's only fair.


Now on THAT we will agree!
 
Sure, in fact let's quote you again so nobody forgets what you stated:D


Sasquatchvnv said...watch for another 9/11 soon to be blamed on Iran so we can start bombing those poor bastards too.

AFAIC, we've had all the reason we have needed for years. :D

What I am hoping will happen is that there will be a successful revolution in that country effectively taking the issue out of the hands of the other countries.


Gunfixx,



+1 :s0155:
 
Sure, in fact let's quote you again so nobody forgets what you stated:D


Sasquatchvnv said...watch for another 9/11 soon to be blamed on Iran so we can start bombing those poor bastards too.

AFAIC, we've had all the reason we have needed for years. :D

What I am hoping will happen is that there will be a successful revolution in that country effectively taking the issue out of the hands of the other countries.

And those reasons would be?

Keep drinking the Kool-Aid.
 
Oh, so now I'm a kool-Aid drinker, yet you are the all knowing, wise one who believes that the the U.S. will attack Iran on false premises?

Now, I understand you:s0155:


Reasons past and present?
1. Because Iran aided and abetted the United States' enemies in Iraq, and elsewhere. Read on.
2. Iran is seeking nuclear weapons to dominate the Middle East to the detriment of the United States' friends in the region, and to those that are even neutral to the U.S. Ask Iran's neighbors yourself.
3. The resurgent of the ultra-radical Shi'ite branch of Islam led by Iran's Armadinnerjacket who believes in the coming of the 12th Imam, and all that is related to such a radical belief. (google is your friend)
4. Taliban commanders given training in Iran... <broken link removed>
5. Guys like you, usually cry big boy tears about human rights violations in China, and Palestine (and rightly so) but somehow do not see Iran's human rights violations even on the same footing as these others. So... #5. Human rights violations, torture, false imprisonment, freedom of the press, executions, etc. etc of their own citizenry.
Should I go on?

Not particularly - just looking at the bigger picture - any country we are getting ready to bomb must be demonized for the masses to support the bombing. We are rarely told the truth of things, just whipped into a frenzy so the bombing can begin.

Been watching your own government lately?
 
I don't want to create a discussion on the merits of the health care bill about to be voted on in congress, but I was thinking this morning about the alleged provision in the bill that states all must have health care or pay a fine, or go to jail if the fine isn't paid.

My question is if I go to jail for not paying the fine, which I guess would be a federal crime, would I lose my right to carry firearms?

Youbetcha! Also, since not filling out the census is a federal crime with a possible $5,000 fine, it must be a felony also which could cost you your right to own firearms. I plan to fill out mine if it every comes with liberal use of the "other" column and "N/A."
 
Not particularly - just looking at the bigger picture - any country we are getting ready to bomb must be demonized for the masses to support the bombing. We are rarely told the truth of things, just whipped into a frenzy so the bombing can begin.

Been watching your own government lately?

I agree 100&#37; and so does Paul Craig Roberts who was Assistant Secretary of the Treasury during Reagan's first term and an Associate Editor of the Wall Street Journal (hardly a wild eyed radical.)

http://www.veteranstoday.com/2010/0...ck-terror-attack-to-precede-invasion-of-iran/
 
I know a guy who didnt have insurance, was "anti-goverment", and was adamantly opposed to any sort of socialized medicine.

He contracted gall stones and went to the emergency room. They wound up removing his gall bladder. The bill for the ER and surgery came out to something like $20,000.

He didnt have $20K so he filed bankruptcy....which means the rest of us who do have insurance got to pay his medical bills for him. In other words....socialized medicine, only very wasteful and inefficient and hypocritical.

Cant have it both ways. If you are opposed to socialized medicine you are entitled to your opinion... but if you get sick and cant afford a $20k medical procedure then you should be allowed to die.
 
How about the faith healing Religions that don't believe in health care? To force them to buy health care would have some significant Constitutional difficulties.

BTW who wants to sing up for my soon to be created new religion?
 
I'll be one of the first to move to one of the soon to be seceded states that doesn't recognize certain Federal Laws. Too bad my buisness is here in Oregon though.
 
Oh, so now I'm a kool-Aid drinker, yet you are the all knowing, wise one who believes that the the U.S. will attack Iran on false premises?

Now, I understand you:s0155:


Reasons past and present?
1. Because Iran aided and abetted the United States' enemies in Iraq, and elsewhere. Read on.
2. Iran is seeking nuclear weapons to dominate the Middle East to the detriment of the United States' friends in the region, and to those that are even neutral to the U.S. Ask Iran's neighbors yourself.
3. The resurgent of the ultra-radical Shi'ite branch of Islam led by Iran's Armadinnerjacket who believes in the coming of the 12th Imam, and all that is related to such a radical belief. (google is your friend)
4. Taliban commanders given training in Iran... <broken link removed>
5. Guys like you, usually cry big boy tears about human rights violations in China, and Palestine (and rightly so) but somehow do not see Iran's human rights violations even on the same footing as these others. So... #5. Human rights violations, torture, false imprisonment, freedom of the press, executions, etc. etc of their own citizenry.
Should I go on?


So I was a little quick on the trigger with the kool-aid comment - apologies. I don't know you well enough to say whether or not you swallow everything the Main stream media spews out as gospel or not. As for the rest - I just call em like I see em. Wise and All knowing - hardly - just trying to pay attention more than most.
 
Bigger picture? As one who's roots are embedded in immigration from the former USSR, yes I know the "bigger picture" quite well. And, i can tell you that the rose colored glasses were never worn by any of us.

"Watching our government lately...? You bet!:s0155:
Especially, the bogus math being used by the "progressive left" (socialists) to cram this BIG GOVERNMENT takeover of our health care system.

My family did not immigrate here to have the GOVERNMENT BACK IN EVERY LITTLE PORTION OF OUR LIVES!!
They moved here to escape such hogwash, to feel and smell and experience first hand, THE freedom of speech to firearms ownership to wishing to be a bum or to work hard and be rewarded for our hard work, not to have our own hard work once again, diced up and given to those lazy ones!!!

I would say you're pretty much awake then. Wish there were more like you.
 
Government run automakers yesterday, government screwed up health care system (and government student loans that was attached to the health care bill) today, illegal immigration amnesty tomorrow, the fairness doctrine next month, but......
Hopefully a major turn around at the election poles the next two election cycles will once again bring the country back to the center, center right as is the population. The politicians have not listened to the people as they know better than we do:s0114: Now, we get to vote them out. :s0155:

Vote all incumbents out - yes. But how do you undo the damage? This crap, once enacted, is pretty much permanent. Look at the Federal Reserve, Income Tax, Social Security and every other government cluster**** jammed down our throats over the years - still there and still draining our lifeblood. They cheat and lie to pass this garbage in the dark of the night. It's got to be getting close to time to mash the "reset" button... It has to go - all of it.
 
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