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Assuming the firearm owner was present (or was on exemption list for transfers, eg family), have you helped somebody with repairs, assembly, modifications, etc on their firearm?

I can't find any legal reasons, in Oregon, that would prohibit this as long as the person was present while work was being done or was exempted for transfer purposes?
 
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No Mr. DB... of course not~!!

On a serious note though... there are restrictions on PMF's. It doesn't matter if both parties are present or if they qualify as being exempt for transfer purposes.

You can not have any part in another persons PMF and can not do a PMF with any intent other than for your own personal use.

Can you be present and give verbal direction? Sure, but you have to be completely hands off.

Other than building a PMF though, I'm not aware of any restriction on helping to modify or repair another persons firearm. You don't have to be licensed nor does tranferability play a part.

That's all as to the "letter of the law", of course.
 
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Assuming the firearm owner was present (or was on exemption list for transfers, eg family), have you helped somebody with repairs, assembly, modifications, etc on their firearm?

I can't find any legal reasons, in Oregon, that would prohibit this as long as the person was present while work was being done or was exempted for transfer purposes?
Hell more times than I can count. Never heard of it if there is some kind of restriction on this.
 
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Personally Made Firearm

In the case of assembling an AR15 using a serialized receiver for example. The firearm (lower receiver) is already manufactured, correct?

To a more extreme example. Let's say a buddy buys an 80% frame and trims something off or drills one hole. That 80% blank is now a firearm, correct?

If he comes to you and says I can't make this frame work, you should be able to legally help him get it running correctly?
 
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In the case of assembling an AR15 using a serialized receiver for example. The firearm is already manufactured, correct?

To a more extreme example. Let's say a buddy buys an 80% frame and trims something off or drills one hole. That 80% blank is now a firearm, correct?

If he comes to you and says I can't make this frame work, you should be able to legally help him get it running correctly?
Have been doing it as long as I have been shooting. If there is a "catch" here I have never heard of it. Only thing I could think of is if the person asking for help can't own a gun, you know they can't, and you help them. Even that would be a hell of a stretch if it was their gun.
 
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In the case of assembling an AR15 using a serialized receiver for example. The firearm is already manufactured, correct?

To a more extreme example. Let's say a buddy buys an 80% frame and trims something off or drills one hole. That 80% blank is now a firearm, correct?

If he comes to you and says I can't make this frame work, you should be able to legally help him get it running correctly?
Serialized receiver... you're good. An 80% though you can not. Once it is complete... I dunno how they could nail you for a "repair" or "modification" of a completed and fully functional "firearm" though. You just can't be a hands on part of the build itself.

The build process is the issue the alphabet came after a few years back. Deeming "build party's" illegal, along with restricting tool use/rentals.

Basically, they want PMF's to be done soley by the individual using his own tools and hands.

What sparked that was a bunch of 80% retailers and such getting together for build parties where part mfg reps where conducting mass build parties and renting equipment in local CNC shops for their 80% customers to have the means to buy and complete their 80% projects with immediate and "professional" direction on hand.

For awhile, you could pay a CNC shop a flat fee to mill your lower for you. Then they went to "renting" use of their machines. IOW, you had to be present and push the "go" button yourself.

It got the attention of the alphabets, who considered that a mfg'ing enterprise, and they subsequently shut it all down with alphabet directives.

Now... technically... you can't lay a finger on someone elses 80% build or it's considered a "build party"... and illegal. If there is no 80% foundation to the PMF... like a serialized stripped lower... I don't see how they can getcha under the "build party" rules.
 
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Have been doing it as long as I have been shooting. If there is a "catch" here I have never heard of it. Only thing I could think of is if the person asking for help can't own a gun, you know they can't, and you help them. Even that would be a hell of a stretch if it was their gun.
That's what I would think too. If somebody can post link to relative law that indicates this activity is illegal, I would appreciate it.
 
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Serialized receiver... you're good. An 80% though you can not. Once it is complete... I dunno how they could nail you for a "repair" or "modification" of a completed and fully functional "firearm" though. You just can't be a hands on part of the build itself.

The build process is the issue the alphabet came after a few years back. Deeming "build party's" illegal, along with restricting tool use/rentals.

Basically, they want PMF's to be done soley by the individual using his own tools and hands.

What sparked that was a bunch of 80% retailers and such getting together for build parties where part mfg reps where conducting mass build parties and renting equipment in local CNC shops for their 80% customers to have the means to buy and complete their 80% projects with immediate and "professional" direction on hand.

For awhile, you could pay a CNC shop a flat fee to mill your lower for you. Then they went to "renting" use of their machines. IOW, you had to be present and push the "go" button yourself.

It got the attention of the alphabets, who considered that a mfg'ing enterprise, and they subsequently shut it all down with alphabet directives.

Now... technically... you can't lay a finger on someone elses build or it's considered a "build party"... and illegal.
I remember hearing about that but would be interested in looking over the law or rules that prohibits working on a firearm that has already been deemed a firearm by ATF rules/law?
 
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That's what I would think too. If somebody can post link to relative law that indicates this activity is illegal, I would appreciate it.
That was awhile ago, but part of it was written into the alphabets section 2015-1. There were also some ATF finding letters, letters to individuals engaging in "mfg'ing enterprises" (build parties) as well as cease and desists to FFL's and shops that were engaged in that area of the market.

I dunno where you would go do find the archives of previous AFT findings letters.

80% Arms was heavily into that battle and might have info still posted. I'm too lazy to go look and doesn't apply to me. ;)

The "intent" aspect is well known and documented though and has some rollover. IE., If it's your friends PMF you're working/helping on... it's "not" intended for your personal use, but his..... they gotcha!
 
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That's all the letter of the law and how the alphabets wants reality to be, but.. you know... kinda like 114... concealed is concealed... what goes on in your neighbors garage while chatting and downing a cold one or two... ya know(?)
 
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That was awhile ago, but part of it was written into the alphabets section 2015-1. There were also some ATF finding letters, letters to individuals engaging in "mfg'ing enterprises" (build parties) as well as cease and desists to FFL's and shops that were engaged in that area of the market.

I dunno where you would go do find the archives of previous AFT findings letters.

80% Arms was heavily into that battle and might have info still posted. I'm too lazy to go look and doesn't apply to me. ;)
They don't make it easy to find that type of info. They do have a specific point where an 80% piece of material becomes a manufactured firearm. That can be achieved with drilling one extra hole, trimming off one little tab of plastic, etc. These rules do not say the firearm has to be completed or made functional by the builder to become a firearm, that I am aware of.
 
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They don't make it easy to find that type of info. They do have a specific point where an 80% piece of material becomes a manufactured firearm. That can be achieved with drilling one extra hole, trimming off one little tab of plastic, etc. These rules do not say the firearm has to be completed or made functional by the builder to become a firearm, that I am aware of.
It does by implication. If you are using your hands to help produce a functional firearm that is not intended for your personal use... that is the violation.

It has nothing to do with the actual state or definition of what constitues a "firearm" for other purposes.

You can try and shoehorn a specific definition so it won't apply to what you want to do (aka make it fully legal), but getting down to the nitty gritty... it is what it is and up to each to decide how to proceed in their own lives. ;)
 
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It does by implication. If you are using your hands to help produce a functional firearm that is not intended for your personal use... that is the violation.

It has nothing to do with the actual state or definition of what constitues a "firearm" for other purposes.

You can try and shoehorn a specific definition so it won't apply to what you want to do (aka make it fully legal), but getting down to the nitty gritty... it is what it is and up to each to decide how proceed in their own lives. ;)
I'll keep looking for the related law. Seems like a situation where they want to have their cake and eat it too. Either an 81% percent frame is already a firearm or it's not. I believe a firearm can only be manufactured once. Is it being manufactured again and again with each hole that is drilled, with each piece of plastic that is trimmed, with each component or part that is added, etc?

Maybe it would solve any gray area if the person who actually manufactured the firearm (drilled first hole), serialized it before asking for help to make it run?
 
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I'll keep looking for the related law. Seems like a situation where they want to have their cake and eat it too. Either an 81% percent frame is already a firearm or it's not. I believe a firearm can only be manufactured once. Is it being manufactured again and again with each hole that is drilled, with each piece of plastic that is trimmed, with each component or part that is added, etc?

Maybe it would solve any gray area if the person who actually manufactured the firearm (drilled first hole), serialized it before asking for help to make it run?
Think of it this way... you're focusing on what constitues a firearm and how does it relate to you helping a buddy build a PMF. It doesn't.. in the respect that you're talking about.

The alphabets are talking about what conditions can a PMF be mfg'ed. You can't build a PMF with any other intent than for personal use. Building or helping your buddy to build one for his personal use (other person) violates the PMF rules. They prefer to view it exactly the same as if you built a PMF with the sole intent of selling or gifting it to someone else. That's "mfg'ing". It doesn't matter how much work you put into it or not. It's a "did you" or "didn't you" type scenario.... from their perspective.
 
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You asked is it "legal". That's how I answered, but personally, the whole thing is a steaming pile. A couple buddies getting together to build their PMF's at the same time isn't a "build party" in the same spirit that started all the crap rolling down hill. (commercial outfits trying to provide an outlet for customers to build using their products... for profit)

What goes on in a guys house is pretty much his own business and who did what or didn't is solely what they say it is, IMHO. Who's to say it wasn't finished but wasn't working so you helped repair it(?) Who's to say you didn't show him, then take it apart and he put it back together himself(?) I mean......

There is the letter of the law and then there is common sense and the spirit of the law. I'm no encouraging anyone to violate the law, but there is such a thing as just getting all rediculous about it all, too. A guy's gotta follow his conscience at some point. If he's at peace with himself over it... what harm has been done?
 
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I think this pdf has much of the info I was looking for



After a quick read, it appears that the feds are indicating that two different items are being manufactured with one 80% blank. You start with 80% blank which is neither a "firearm" or "weapon". The owner drills one hole and now the 80% blank has been manufactured into a "firearm". Now his buddy drills remaining holes, trims off excess plastic finishing off the frame and installs all necessary components. That was manufacturing a "weapon".

As for loaning tools and advice it appears that may be OK as long as it's not done for compensation.
 
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I would say... you're exponentially more likely to get in hot water for not using the twist tie and doing the spin and tuck maneuver on a loaf of bread than you would giving a buddy a few pointers on his build in the privacy of your own home.

Just sayin.... 🤪
 
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I would say... you're exponentially more likely to get in hot water for not using the twist tie and doing the spin and tuck maneuver on a loaf of bread than you would giving a buddy a few pointers on his build in the privacy of your own home.

Just sayin.... 🤪
Exactly. NO ONE is going to get into a bind doing a build with a buddy. No one cares enough. Now if the "buddy" builds a gun, goes on a mass shoot, then tells everyone you built his gun with him they may look at you. Same if you are helping someone prohibited and you know they are. Otherwise no one cares and no one well. As another mentioned the only time this comes up is when someone tries to make money off doing it for a lot of people at the same time.
 

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