Hard hitting cartridge for Elk.

[Argonaut]

10 ga. slug @ 1462 fps for 3636.....and a 1/2 ft./lbs. at the muzzle.

...of course @ 100 yds. is a different story....



Dean

Yes......the trade off is velocity for mass giving the same muzzle energy. How it flies after leaving the barrel is another science all together.

 

[DeanMk]

....same?...read again! =D

 

[3MTA3]

Every gass operated semi automatic bleeds a little gas off behind the bullet, slowing the bullets velocity. Not a lot but still takes energy. That is why vented (revolver) hand guns have different ballistics than non vented barrels like a 1911 or Thompson contender. If they directed the vented gas to the rear, it would effect recoil by listening it. There is no Voodoo in it.

Check the recoil table and compare the 300 WSM with the 300 WM and a 180 grain bullet. Note that the WSM is slightly faster but has about 8% less recoil. The reason is that the mass of the gasses (about the same weight as the powder charge) is less in the smaller more efficient cartridge. No voodoo at all just good old physics.

Rifle Recoil Table

 

[orygun]

You can not have reduced recoil with the same energy bullet. You can change the precived recoil with various techniques but the laws of physics can not be overcome. An action has an opposite and equal reaction.

This is untrue. Part of the equation for calculating recoil has to do with the powder charge weight.

 

[Jamie6.5]

No, you were saying that it needs improved....and opening a bolt face is simple. A lot more simple than hand crafting every cartridge case.

A properly machined Ackley improved chamber doesn't require handcrafting a cartridge case.
You take standard ammo, load it in the gun, and pull the trigger.
And the case comes out with the improved dimensions/shoulder due to fire-forming.
And oddly enough, most people that do it report amazing accuracy during fire-forming.

My 6.5x57 AI was faster than a creedmore or a 6.5x55, but wasn't the barrel burner that the 6.5x.284 Win is.
The -06 AI isn't quite a .300 WM, but it's measurably better than a standard -06.

And you mentioned the .30 Norma mag. Care to compare the cost of brass between the -06 and Norma?
There's no comparison.

There's still plenty of reason to wildcat.
Not the least of which is,...
Because you can.

 

[Argonaut]

A properly machined Ackley improved chamber doesn't require handcrafting a cartridge case.
You take standard ammo, load it in the gun, and pull the trigger.
And the case comes out with the improved dimensions/shoulder due to fire-forming.
And oddly enough, most people that do it report amazing accuracy during fire-forming.

My 6.5x57 AI was faster than a creedmore or a 6.5x55, but wasn't the barrel burner that the 6.5x.284 Win is.
The -06 AI isn't quite a .300 WM, but it's measurably better than a standard -06.

And you mentioned the .30 Norma mag. Care to compare the cost of brass between the -06 and Norma?
There's no comparison.

There's still plenty of reason to wildcat.
Not the least of which is,...
Because you can.

None of the 6.5's come close to a 264 win mag, or even a 6.5 Remington Magnum if you want a short case. I still have 100 cases in 308 Norma by starline that was very inexpensive. 358 Norma mag is much more powerful than a Whalen, There isn't one wild cat that can't be equaled or surpassed by factory ammo or handloads. No reason unless you just want to. Maby a 45-50BMG? None of your comparisons work.

 

[Jamie6.5]

None of the 6.5's come close to a 264 win mag, or even a 6.5 Remington Magnum if you want a short case. I still have 100 cases in 308 Norma by starline that was very inexpensive. 358 Norma mag is much more powerful than a Whalen, There isn't one wild cat that can't be equaled or surpassed by factory ammo or handloads. No reason unless you just want to. Maby a 45-50BMG? None of your comparisons work.

.308 Norma brass is roughly 50% more than -06 brass, when both are made by Norma.
When the cost of Remchester brass is considered, the -06 casings are 1/3rd the cost of the .308 Norma.

30-06 Springfield - 7387 - MidwayUSA
308 Norma Magnum - 7437 - MidwayUSA

Look, if you don't want to wildcat, don't, it's that simple.
But don't pooh-pooh others for doing it, when most of us have great success building and shooting exactly what we want, for less money and greater satisfaction.

If you're not comfortable wildcatting, stay on the porch, and save yer shekels for the ammo (and the barrels) to fit your factory magnums.
Me, I'll build and shoot what I want, the way I want, and do it for fun.

And celebrate the genius of innovators like P.O. Ackley, Col. Whelen and Elmer Keith, that lit the way for the rest of us.

 

[Argonaut]

.308 Norma brass is roughly 50% more than -06 brass, when both are made by Norma.
When the cost of Remchester brass is considered, the -06 casings are 1/3rd the cost of the .308 Norma.

30-06 Springfield - 7387 - MidwayUSA
308 Norma Magnum - 7437 - MidwayUSA

Look, if you don't want to wildcat, don't, it's that simple.
But don't pooh-pooh others for doing it, when most of us have great success building and shooting exactly what we want, for less money and greater satisfaction.

If you're not comfortable wildcatting, stay on the porch, and save yer shekels for the ammo (and the barrels) to fit your factory magnums.
Me, I'll build and shoot what I want, the way I want, and do it for fun.

And celebrate the genius of innovators like P.O. Ackley, Col. Whelen and Elmer Keith, that lit the way for the rest of us.

I knew Elmer Keith, and you are making my point. In the 40's and 50's wildcatting was a practical endeavor for many reasons. Not today. You are welcome to spend your time and treasure any way you choose off course. No one said any different. My 378 Weatherby ammo is about 150.00 a box of 20. The cost hasn't deterred me for the over 40 years I have owned mine. Shooting is not a low cost pastime, it can be less expensive if you concentrate on common calibers but it is never cheep. I bought a new Blaser last year.....never considered the cost of feeding it. A few hundred dollars on consumables for a 10,000 rifle is trivial. We all like to justify our activities however we can. I just see no modern justification for wild cat ammunition when there are the same or better factory loads already available. You have not made your case otherwise. Hand loading makes perfect sense but the advantage of going into a local sporting goods store and taking an adaquate quality box of ammunition off the shelf when your luggage with the ammo is lost before an expensive hunt is priceless

 

[Argonaut]

I do make ammo for my antique guns, calibers that are no longer available. I have machine tools and equipment specifically for the job. Like my cousin that is into long range black powder cartridge shooting, he might shoot 100 rounds of 45-120 a session. We form and manufacture the ammo as needed......but if a factory casing is available like many old obsolete calibers are today, we do not. We are shooters in the end not manufacturers of ammunition unless nessisary.

 

[Jamie6.5]

I knew Elmer Keith, and you are making my point. In the 40's and 50's wildcatting was a practical endeavor for many reasons. Not today. You are welcome to spend your time and treasure any way you choose off course. No one said any different. My 378 Weatherby ammo is about 150.00 a box of 20. The cost hasn't deterred me for the over 40 years I have owned mine. Shooting is not a low cost pastime, it can be less expensive if you concentrate on common calibers but it is never cheep. I bought a new Blaser last year.....never considered the cost of feeding it. A few hundred dollars on consumables for a 10,000 rifle is trivial. We all like to justify our activities however we can. I just see no modern justification for wild cat ammunition when there are the same or better factory loads already available. You have not made your case otherwise. Hand loading makes perfect sense but the advantage of going into a local sporting goods store and taking an adaquate quality box of ammunition off the shelf when your luggage with the ammo is lost before an expensive hunt is priceless

Actually, you've done a great job of making my case for me.
Go ahead, brag about your $150.00/box ammo.

But if you *think* for a heartbeat the .308 Norma ammo that's 3 times the cost of .30-06 ammo is a deal, then we've reached an impasse in the conversation.

And don't tell me about lost luggage and missed opportunities when you turn your nose up at the -06 Ackley that will still shoot factory standard -06, while you're still looking for an overnight parcel carrier that will get that Norma ammo to you before opening day, because someone lost your luggage.
That side of your argument makes NO SENSE.

Wildcatting is fun, and educational, and can be economical, when compared to shooting ammo with the sillyassed price of unicorn tears.

Have a nice day.

 

[FishnhuntOR]

Just ordered my sauer 100 in the 9.3x62.
Now, do I want to shoot 250 or 286 grain??
reading some reviews about 250 accubonds guys are pushing them 2700fps.
I have 8lb of big game and hunter.
http://blog.westernpowders.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/9.3x62-Data.pdf

 

[Argonaut]

Just ordered my sauer 100 in the 9.3x62.
Now, do I want to shoot 250 or 286 grain??
reading some reviews about 250 accubonds guys are pushing them 2700fps.
I have 8lb of big game and hunter.
http://blog.westernpowders.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/9.3x62-Data.pdf

A wonderful caliber. I would study the twist in the barrel. That will tell you the best bullet to use. Sauer is a wonderful company, an email should get an accurate answer about the bullet as well. I talked to the reps at the shot show. Like the rifles a lot but remember when CDNN closed them out for 500.00 a few years ago, so have a difficult time buying one for over 2,000.00

 

[Argonaut]

A wonderful caliber. I would study the twist in the barrel. That will tell you the best bullet to use. Sauer is a wonderful company, an email should get an accurate answer about the bullet as well. I talked to the reps at the shot show. Like the rifles a lot but remember when CDNN closed them out for 500.00 a few years ago, so have a difficult time buying one for over 2,000.00

I see that that is there new modestly priced rifle........should be a winner for sure. I own few plastic rifles but know there is a place for them in the market, just not my place.........I waited for Tikka to import a wood stock rifle to buy one.

 

[FishnhuntOR]

CDNN?
I have been looking for a tikka t3 in the 9.3 for couple years now. Then I thought about buyin a donor and after re bore or re barrel. It was a wash or even more.

I was going to get this sauer in wood stock. But after talking and waiting for some suppliers to send me pics of the wood that never happened ... I moved on and saved 250$.
I am also hoping the hearing protection act passes as sauer offers silencer for their rifles if you look under options on their site.
The twist 14.2

 

[Argonaut]

CDNN?
I have been looking for a tikka t3 in the 9.3 for couple years now. Then I thought about buyin a donor and after re bore or re barrel. It was a wash or even more.

I was going to get this sauer in wood stock. But after talking and waiting for some suppliers to send me pics of the wood that never happened ... I moved on and saved 250$.
I am also hoping the hearing protection act passes as sauer offers silencer for their rifles if you look under options on their site.

Yes on all.....if I was right handed, I would buy a Mauser or Sako in one of the 9.3 bore calibers. The Tikkas are incredibly smooth and accurate for the money. I generally don't buy new guns either....can usually find a great classic to fulfill whatever itch I am trying to scratch. I tried to get the Tikka importer to order a left hand wood stock rifle for me when I talked with them at the Shot Show 3 years ago and they wouldn't give me the time of day. Now Euro optics has a great inventory of them......I hope bought around the US distributor. Right now, I am enjoying learning my Merkel K3 in 308. It weighs around 5 lbs including its large Swarovski variable scope. It is also very short and handy with its break open action. rifle uses the Willey Blaser design that doesn't cock the rifle until the safety is pushed off. Also, shoots 1/4 MOA and is a beautiful gun. I also love set triggers, have a pre war 8mm Oberndorf Mauser that is everyone's favorite with its fine stock and double set triggers. Your Sauer sounds great. The 9.3 can be a very accurate caliber and off course, is very effective.

 

[FishnhuntOR]

Euro optics has tikka T3 hunter for 500$. I ALMOST bought that in 270 to re bore it since I cant find a regular T3 in the tcaliber.
I like this magazine is double stacked and is 5+1 vs 3+1.

 

[FishnhuntOR]

270, 30/06, 9.3x62
130, 150, 285 grain pils.