Hard hitting cartridge for Elk.

[Oregonhunter5]

Certainly, it seems you have not done much work with the .45-70 Govt. especially at longer ranges. I've Fired a few(actually several hundred) at 1,000 meters down at the NRA Whittington Center and with the right Rifle and load it will easily keep all shots inside a 12" Bullseye. Maybe you simply haven't found the right Rifle or Load.

That's actually surprising. I just see it as a short range gun. Longer range is for the .300 mag, 7mm, .300 rum, maybe a 30 nosler, .338 rum. Those are good choices in my mind. Western Oregon? Sure 45-70 is great!

 

[salmonriverjohn]

Right tool, right job. Right?
I have to give the nod to the .338 WM as the best all around elk cartridge,, so far.
Yes, there are better for longer ranges and better for closer, .45-70 comes to mind here, but from the barrel to 400 yards+ it's damn hard to beat the old .338,

 

[KKG]

Black Powder Cartridge Rifles have been making 1,000 yard shots since the days of the Civil War. Yes, you have to give it a bit more elevation than Many of the newer and flatter Shooting rounds but it will and has done the job nicely for more than a hundred years. It also takes a bit better Shooter but I've seen hundreds of Shooters sighting in from the bench that couldn't stand up away from the bench and hit an 18" Gong Target at 200 meters!!! Many wouldn't believe it was 18" until I took them down to measure it for themselves. Go figure.

I'm out of this discussion - had it too many times.

 

[Goosebrown]

45-70 sucks at accuracy with distance.

They shot the 1000 yard creedmoor competition for many years with 45/70. It does not suck at long range. You just need to learn how to use it. It is not a modern hyper velocity cartridge but it works just fine.

 

[Jamie6.5]

They shot the 1000 yard creedmoor competition for many years with 45/70. It does not suck at long range. You just need to learn how to use it. It is not a modern hyper velocity cartridge but it works just fine.

The 45/70 has done those things, and earned that reputation on the plains of the midwest, taking native buffalo.
Put one in the steep country of the Rockies, the Cascades, the coast range or the Snake River Gorge, and things get a helluva lot more difficult, real real fast.
The rainbow trajectory of huge-but-slow cartridge/bullet combinations can be accurate because they're predictable. Over flat ground, when you're certain of the range to target.

Shooting at a 25 degree down angle (or up angle) deep into the swales/gorges/canyons between ridges at 200-400 yards changes things dramatically.
Do you know how high to hold? Should you add elevation at all? Your rainbow trajectory has already added 16+(?) inches of elevation at that range, so what happens to that rainbow when shooting at extreme up/down angles?

Nope, rounds like the 45/70 were great in their day. Real thumpers that packed a wallop.
But in most elk country, even at a mere ~200-300 yds, there's much better choices.

 

[tac]

The 45-70 was just great at shooting at more-or-less static targets, like grazing buffalo.

However, as had been pointed out, that happened at comparatively short ranges compared with static target shooting, which is MY interest in this calibre. The bullet drop at 1200 yards, a distance at which I've had great lack of success over the years, is mind-numbing, as is the shoulder after twenty shots from prone. With a time-of-flight approaching five seconds, any living target may well have moved into the next county by the time that that big ol' bullet got there.

It has long been my contention that General Sedgwick, shot in the head at about 800 yards at Spotsylvania Courthouse in May of 1864, walked into the bullet by accident. I've tried for YEARS to make a shot like that, using a Whitworth rifle, and failed utterly to make any kind of a pattern on the target less than two feet across. As for deliberately hitting a nine-inch circle with a single shot, fergit it.

tac

 

[Goosebrown]

At 200-300? Yes there are but most spots I have hunted here that is The absolute max range. The OP wanted a bone breaker. Want efficient? 30-06, 338wm, 300wm, 7mmrm, all about what you want to do.

You have to know your tool to do your work.

 

[tac]

You a vampire, GB?

tac

 

[Goosebrown]

I sleep super early then wake up for a bit then back to sleep. I get up 4-5a then bed 9ish. Wife is in chronic pain so we usually have time up at night without kids. Seems to work out. We've adapted to it.

 

[Goosebrown]

As for Sedgwick I would guess the snipers fired at the command group. If you miss the brass then you get an ADC or a horse. He wasn't felled by the first shot either and reports were that he was moving and chiding those that chose to hit the dirt. I think you're right. The shot was aimed at the group and he rode into it.

Of course what else should he have done at the time? You had to keep all those guys from running or hitting the dirt. Look at the French officer corps in the napoleanic wars with 20-30% casualties compared to British, Russian and Prussian armies all below 5%. Different leadership for leading a column or a line. All about morale and maintaining the ability to maneuver.

 

[FishnhuntOR]

as I said earlier, I was in the same situation as you.
went from 338-06 to 35 to the 9.3
9.3 is well proven and can be loaded up with 300 grain pills.

 

[tac]

I sleep super early then wake up for a bit then back to sleep. I get up 4-5a then bed 9ish. Wife is in chronic pain so we usually have time up at night without kids. Seems to work out. We've adapted to it.

Apologies, GB, I didn't mean to infer anything by my comment. Me and my Great Uncle Ig [Ignatz Maximilian Breitbart, Graf von Loeffelgeier u. Suppenbecher] have a touch of the 'old country' in us, and we don't sleep too well at night for 'other reasons'.

tac

 

[Goosebrown]

Apologies, GB, I didn't mean to infer anything by my comment. Me and my Great Uncle Ig [Ignatz Maximilian Breitbart, Graf von Loeffelgeier u. Suppenbecher] have a touch of the 'old country' in us, and we don't sleep too well at night for 'other reasons'.

tac

I have lived with Vampires several times. Rather odd to have them tramping around all night. I get that

 

[Ura-Ki]

You do your part, .45/70 will do it's part. Know the limits and the capabilities, and it will surve you Well! With open sights, my Marlin XLR .45/70 is good for 250 yards or so! Never put an optic on it, so that's the practical limits! Under 250 yards, it drops what ever I am aiming at, and there is no mostly dead when that big 365 gr hits home!

 

[orygun]

See, that's he dilemma for me, and I've stated it here before.
I just can't decide between those two rounds, the .338-06 and the .35 Whelen.
One offers better sectional density and BC per grain, but the Whelen offers more Light-For-Caliber bullet options for handloads, and more choices of factory ammo.

I've been mulling this over for 3-4 YEARS and still haven't made up my mind.
If I could, I'd get both/have both built, and shoot them for a year or so.
And knowing me, I'd probably end up keeping both too

Oh well.

Both of these would be great and just the ticket if you want to build a rifle to match. I've been tempted by both, but did something different instead.

If the "hard hitting elk cartridge" is not going to be stretched past a "couple hunnerd" yards, my choice would be the 45-70.
My favorite load for the B-78 was a buttload of RL7 under the Speer 400gr soft point at 2050fps and approx 3800lbs ft. (you want hard hitting?) Earlier comments about this bullet being soft are spot on, sos I compensated by hunting the more open spaces. The much tougher Hornady 350gr could be launched even faster and the energy is comparable.

But if I was shopping for a rifle to hit stuff "hard", I wouldn't limit myself quite so much, yardage wise. Yeah, a 45-70 can be launched like a mortar and will kill when it falls back to earth, but c'mon, to shoot like that is an art.

.375 Ruger.
Kinda wish I'd not traded mine away, but for the most part it just sat there. I hunted with it some, but it was far more gun than I needed. Reasonable gun weight in the Hawkeye and more than accurate enough. Launched 270gr bullets like an '06 throws a 180gr. (2760fps)
Yeah, it kicks hard. Whaddya expect?

 

[3MTA3]

I am not a recoil sissy, and cannot help you that are. You can take your 308 and go pout in the corner. I want a shoulder bustin' performance rifle. And I can take it in my shoulder as well, for you smart-arses.

375 0r 416 Ruger. Side benefit is you are set for Alaskan brown bear and the African Big 5. Above that the Cheytacs and finally 50 BMG. A real man would use a 50 BMG pistol.

 

[KKG]

I just can't decide between those two rounds, the .338-06 and the .35 Whelen.

I recently pickup a 1951 vintage Marlin 336 in .35 Remington and am in the process of Rebuilding - yep, haven't Fired a shot out of the old girl. For some reason Factory butt Stocks Simply don't fit me so a pad is going on which means a bit o' stock refinishing. I already stocked up on 150gr. Plus two types of 200gr. and have some 250gr. Thumpers is I need them. I've topped it with a Leupold(there ain't none other) 3x9x40mm that I'm SURE will fill the will. Of course, dies, sling, etc. So more Dollars invested in accessories than the rifle.

If I get a shot at a Deer Elk or Bear I do think I'll have a better than average chance.

 

[tac]

375 0r 416 Ruger. Side benefit is you are set for Alaskan brown bear and the African Big 5. Above that the Cheytacs and finally 50 BMG. A real man would use a 50 BMG pistol.

Well, I had a .45-70 Thompson Contender with a totally worthless JSK muzzle brake. Does that count toward my manliness?

tac

 

[tac]

Muzzlebreak??? I guess that's why Cerakote comes in pink

FYI, it was a non-removeable part of the barrel, put on during the barrel manufacture, and intended to stay there.

tac

 

[3MTA3]

FYI, it was a non-removeable part of the barrel, put on during the barrel manufacture, and intended to stay there.

Since I can't see your emoticon, I'll overlook it. But please be advised if you are taking the p*ss out of me then that is not necessarily the best idea you've had today.

tac

It was a smilie and I was just giving you a ration. No harm intended, just fun. Personally I don't go in for recoil for the sake of recoil. Been there and done that. A 6.5x55 will kill that elk just as dead at any reasonable range and in a nice light rifle. I'll go for a bigger 7mm or 30 if I need to shoot further and no qualms about a muzzle break on those either. One of these days I will get a Sharps in 45-110 just because it's too cool not to have oa Quigley rifle.