handloads vs. commercial: defending yourself in court

[Sabertooth]

My handloads are in two catagores. Target loads or hunting loads. Selfdefense are store bought to save on questions that would shorten any trial time. My carry side arms are also stock.
This is on the advice of my CC license instructor 30 years ago. Sounded like good advice to me.
Remember the DA has a political agenda. Governer or state attorney general beside his or name.

 

[Redcap]

My handloads are in two catagores. Target loads or hunting loads. Selfdefense are store bought to save on questions that would shorten any trial time. My carry side arms are also stock.
This is on the advice of my CC license instructor 30 years ago. Sounded like good advice to me.
Remember the DA has a political agenda. Governer or state attorney general beside his or name.

My carry weapon is not stock and I run some vicious handloads through it. In the event that I have to use it, I want to neutralize the threat as soon as possible...I don't really give a damn what happens afterward. And yes, I have been in that situation before.

 

[Browning55]

The most accurate load for a particular gun (and person) will often be less than "factory duplication loads". Consideration for others in the event of a miss makes accuracy another valid concern in stressful situations. Carrying a less-than-factory "target load" developed for accuracy would not portray one as having a "Rambo mentality" and could legitimately be presented as reasonable and responsible.

 

[evltwn]

Lets toss in a little context, if y'all don't mind...it's first important to survive the encounter in which you were forced to defend yourself and/or loved ones. When it comes to that aspect, I will do whatever is required to end the threat. Yeah I handload, and yeah, I will shoot until the threat is neutralized. I would also use a brick, shovel or whatever else would be effective.

I am not going to weigh the legal arguments when myself or loved ones are threatened. I am going to eliminate the threat.

 

[sadiesassy]

So like in the old days you need a second set of books ( Computers, phones, etc) ???

If you are charged with shooting someone, murder, they will seize your computer, cell phone and ipad. They will know everything you ever posted on the net. It is standard investigation these days. That is one reason I do not have a Face Book or My Space page.

 

[VW_Factor]

:bsflag::bsflag:

I have spoken to several LEO's and asked about this. Never have I had one say they gave a bubblegume about the type brand or make of the ommo some one used in a defencsive shooting.........

LEO's are not lawyers.

 

[orygun]

I handload for all of my handguns except the .380. I mostly carry a 45 ACP and that is almost always loaded with a "factory" load. If I happened to be carrying my .41 Mag or my .357 Mag and needed to use it as self defense there is no way it would be with anything but a handload. I certainly won't be worrying about that.
I'll be stopping the threat.
If I shoot justifiably, the ammo won't make any difference.

 

[Gunner3456]

There is a huge difference between a criminal case and a civil case. That's what bit OJ when he was charged with killing his wife.

In a criminal case the standard of proof is "beyond a reasonable doubt" meaning that the jury has to have NO reasonable doubt at all that you are guilty. If even one of the 12 jurors has that reasonable doubt, you aren't convicted. That's a very high standard of proof for the DA to get a unanimous return on. They can re-try you on a hung jury, but often they see their case isn't strong and they don't.

In the following civil case by the relatives, the standard of proof is just the preponderance of the evidence. That means the jury has to believe only that it's a tiny bit more likely you're guilty than not. Or, you win if the jury thinks it's a tiny bit more likely you're innocent. It's like balancing evidence on a scale. Just a little tip of the scales... That can be a close call. It also only takes 3/4 of the jury to sink you, not unanimous. That's what happened to OJ in the following civil suit.

Both cases can bankrupt you. If you're already broke, you get a court appointed attorney who may be very good and really care - or not.

I just spent $100 grand defending myself and then counter-suing, and I didn't do one thing wrong, not one thing, much less shoot someone or threaten or even draw or display a weapon.

I want to stay out of court. I don't want to have to shoot someone, ever, but if I do I want every advantage, and no possible disadvantages, so I'll be carrying a stock gun with ammo like the police use. Maybe it's not necessary, but why give a DA or a civil attorney anything whatsoever to muddy the water with?

"I was carrying the same brand, caliber and ammunition many police use because I figured they know best."

 

[theficklefinger]

Ayoob made the case, that handloaded ammo, can be used by the prosecution as a way of painting the shooter as some psycho making 'special' rounds etc. He doesn't hinge a case on it...but it's part of a picture that a prosecuter can paint to make the jury sway.

I get his point, but you do have to understand this type of argument is the refuge of someone with a lousy case.

 

[tlfreek]

:bsflag::bsflag:

I have spoken to several LEO's and asked about this. Never have I had one say they gave a bubblegume about the type brand or make of the ommo some one used in a defencsive shooting.........

its not hte LEO you have to be concerned about.

This is something I consider a no brainer - this isn't pointed at you squirrel just thought I would finish my thought. Why would you ever use handloads for this? Buy some defensive ammo and carry it or store it in a gun you plan to use for protection. This is low hanging fruit for the prosecution. take me for instance. I reload lots for multiple calibers and I do say to certain people who ask me about guns is "when the zombies walk the earth your gonna wanna be at my house." Well take that statement, my reloads and you got some grit against me. first what are zombies? Second did i purposely make my rounds more deadly for these zombies? the list goes on like one poster who brought grain size into the mix - why did I select that bullet, that grain that everything. Now keep in mind if you were to win and pacify the prosecution on your reloads, bullet weight, powder load, caliber of gun you carried, the bumper sticker on your truck that says "Marine Sniper...if you run you'll only die tired" and the occasional statement of if this happened I would do this......look at the energy and expense you will have to tackle to then get into the...why did you do it question.

buy and use defensive ammo. That's why it's there.

 

[Gunner3456]

My thinking is more about the jury. If I get a liberal anti-gun jury to start with (especially possible in one of Oregon's liberal cities) then I have strikes against me before I start.

The jury won't understand reloading, much less some "redneck" who does. Forget that they arrive believing people shouldn't carry guns.

I now have an uphill battle to convince the jury that I'm not a nut, that I not only was justified in carrying the gun but in shooting someone.

I don't want anything to muddy the water. Keep the gun and ammo out of the conversation, other than to show that it's normal and acceptable to LEO's in the line of duty. This is exactly why I carry a Glock in .40.

A good prosecutor can make me look like a nut to an anti-gun jury and then I'm toast no matter.

Others are right IMHO. Watch the bumper stickers and other things which could hurt you. Just try to be as "normal" as you can considering you carry, and that you shot someone.

It's NOT going to be pleasant, at best. This could bankrupt you just paying for lawyers and fees and costs for two trials EVEN IF YOU WIN. If you haven't been through full blown legal issues, you can't imagine how much it costs for depositions, court recorders, lawyer hours, court costs and fees, jury fees, etc. etc.

I'm actively looking for some blanket insurance to cover me for this. It looks like $500 a year if I can get $1 million.

Our best hope is that what we do is so obviously legal and justified that no prosecutor will file criminal charges, and no attorney will take a civil case on a contingency basis because we kept it simple and he thinks he can't win.

KISS.

 

[FORKLIFT252]

Mr.prosecutor I made that ammunition with safety in mind.
I was concerned with accuracy and possible over penatration.

 

[dario541]

I keep Federal "hydra-Shock" in my .357. I have heard that it is the cartridge used by the FBI. If they can use it, so can I. What do you think?

 

[tlfreek]

Mr.prosecutor I made that ammunition with safety in mind.
I was concerned with accuracy and possible over penatration.

You're missing the point and its certainly not as dismissable as the answer you gave. The fact is you used roloaded ammo - all you need is an attorney who is smarter than you. I agree tho my reloads are most likely no where near as deadly as factory. but look at it this way. suppose you do shoot someone with a reload and you dont kill em but you blow their arm off. perhaps a factory round would not have done that and this is an angle the prosecutor might take. again it takes the thrust away from why you shot em in the first place. it seems to me that factory loads will reduce this unnecessary noise if in fact the unfortunate happens.

 

[orygun]

I've got a question that really does apply here.
Especially if you use the same components the manufacturer does to assemble a hand load and you don't open your mouth saying that you did this yourself, how would they know?

 

[evltwn]

Folks, EVERY aspect of a shooting will be examined...caliber of gun (gosh did you NEED to use a .45 (fill in the caliber)) he only had a bloody knife, yada yada yada. Jurors are not stupid, and if you behaved in a responsible manner that too will be noted. I must remind you of my earlier premise, that the main thing here is to defend your loved ones. Yes there will be many legal ramifications, and even if absolved of all charges, it will still cost you a fortune.

I would rather pay a lawyer than shell out for a coffin for my wife.

 

[Gunner3456]

Guys, you will not be allowed to testify to the safety or any other aspects of your reloads. To do that, you'd first have to be recognized by the court (judge) as an expert witness. That would mean a degree in an appropriate field, and being recognized by peers in your field. You'd cite books you had written, experts who had quoted you and others who were using your techniques.

Your opinion would go down on objection, and the judge would instruct the jury to ignore your comments. You'd look like a dummy.

In other words, if you're not a psychiatrist or psychologist, the court will not allow you to say that someone is incompetent. Even if you were, you'd have to have records of recognized tests you'd done on that individual, and explain them.

You will be asked if you reloaded the bullets, and THEN asked what qualifies you as an expert in that field to allow you to do that. You'd sit there with egg on your face. The water would be muddy for no reason at all.

The subject would be changed from your need to defend yourself (which is what you need to get across) to your amateur reloads for no good reason.

Avoid it.

 

[Douglas]

I would rather pay a lawyer than shell out for a coffin for my wife.

Spot on. To expand, I'd rather do 20 than pay for a coffin!

 

[tlfreek]

I've got a question that really does apply here.
Especially if you use the same components the manufacturer does to assemble a hand load and you don't open your mouth saying that you did this yourself, how would they know?

I suspect they would ask you in court. you have two choices: 1. lie under oath or 2. say you don't know. If you say you dont know more than likely they will beat you down so far that you'll submit and question yourself - which is what they want.

 

[tlfreek]

Spot on. To expand, I'd rather do 20 than pay for a coffin!

how bout buy the right ammo and not do 20?