handloads vs. commercial: defending yourself in court

[Kevatc]

In the ammo and reloading area there was a comment made that reloads are fine for practice but you should use commercial ammo for SD in case you have to go to court to defend yourself. So what difference does it make on who and how the ammo is made?

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[Nwcid]

The old wives tale is that a lawyer can turn the use of handloaded ammo against you. Problem is no one has EVER come up with a case where this was documented as playing a role. Also no matter what happens a lawyers job is to make "his" case so even if you use XYZ brand of defensive ammo that can be "used against" you.

 

[Crazyeye24]

During my CCW class they explained that the lawyers for the prosecution will say you loaded the ammo too hot and try to make you out to be a crazy person who just wants to kill people. They will try to demonize you and then say guns are bad...All the while defending the perp who was so innocently trying to rob, kill or harm you.

 

[deen_ad]

I think Massad Ayoob has published some court cases on this, and it has happened.

 

[Riot]

The old wives tale is that a lawyer can turn the use of handloaded ammo against you. Problem is no one has EVER come up with a case where this was documented as playing a role. Also no matter what happens a lawyers job is to make "his" case so even if you use XYZ brand of defensive ammo that can be "used against" you.

Um, I think Mossad Ayoob disagrees with you...

For several years, certain "Net Ninjas" have been spreading the false belief that no one has ever gotten in trouble in court from using handloads. Now you know better. The records of the N.J. v. Daniel N. Bias trials are archived at the Superior Court of New Jersey, Warren County, 313 Second Street, P.O. Box 900, Belvedere, NJ 97823. Those wishing to follow his appellate process can begin with the Atlantic Reporter at 142 NJ 572, 667 A.2d 190 (Table). The only reason handloads have not been a factor in more cases is that most people who go in harm's way are already smart enough not to use them for defense.

<broken link removed>

*edit*

I think Massad Ayoob has published some court cases on this, and it has happened.

lol, you beat me to it.



The fact of the matter is this-

Lawyers will do anything to win. They will discredit you by looking up every blemish in your record. They will find someone to speak ill of you and your integrity. They will break down every word you've ever put in a statement up and use it against you. They will scrutinize everything you used from the type of weapon to the caliber of the bullet to include the grain and whether or not you used factory loads or hand loads. Fragmentation, FMJ, JHP, soft point, buck shot, slug, whatever...if they can play an angle they will play it. Got a bumper sticker that says "Snipers: Reach out and touch someone", you think they will just dismiss this fact if you shot someone? Nope. Any competent lawyer will use this as a baseline of behavior to prove that you wanted to shoot someone. You didn't accidentally leave the garage open, you intentionally left it open. You hoped to shoot someone, that's why you left the gun next to the bed.

Carry this bad boy on your hip?



Although it's bad@ss, do you want to be sitting in the witness box explaining to the defense attorney that guns are just a hobby for you that you partake in and you thought that it just made your gun look cool?

Still not convinced? Well how about this...do you want this expensive, bad boy confiscated and man-handled by every LEO in the neighborhood for an indeterminate amount of time before you get it back?

 

[Burt Gummer]

'My defendant acquired his defensive weapon and ammo from a local sporting goods store' would always sound good in court. "My defendant made his own ammo in his garage' and/or 'built his own weapon' (hopefullly not a Saiga 12 LOL) would not sound so great. Jurors empathize with the Bi-Mart shopper.

 

[Misterbill]

I think this is a vastly overblown threat.

Yes, it could happen. If we lived in NJ. NYC or LA, CA. The rest of the country? Not so much.
Ayoob is notoriously defensive. He has lots of good advice so please don't discount him, but on this issue I think he's really overstating the relative threat.


As a trainer I recommend people buy the same ammo that their local police use. This is not for criminal defensive purposes, it's for the civil case you may be facing. In THAT arena you may be looking at marginal evidence you used excessive force and that you "made your own ammo specifically to be extra deadly" may sway a jury from 50 to 50.0001% on the plaintiff's side and you just lost your house.

Taking the truly bizarre (and it WAS truly bizarre) case from NEW JERSEY, THE MOST ANTI-GUN STATE IN THE COUNTRY as representative of the whole country is ridiculous.
In my jurisdiction, unless there was clear evidence that I shot someone who truly didn't need to be shot, INCLUDING SUICIDE OF MY WIFE, there is not even a look at what the bullet was, where it was manufactured or anything else.

There have been multiple citizen shootings in the last 20 years that *I* would have prosecuted that have been passed over as defensive shootings here.

It all depends on where you live, the likelihood of a civil case and the likelihood of a local jury that will be sympathetic to the case over over-use of force or malicious intent.

Ayoob wirtes for the whole country. Demographically that includes 30 million people in California, 11 Million in NYC alone, etc. You should take it with a grain of salt.

 

[Nwcid]

I read though the court link. Maybe I am slow but how exactly did handload ammo sink this guy? That whole case was messed up and has NOTHING to do with self defense.

 

[Riot]

I read though the court link. Maybe I am slow but how exactly did handload ammo sink this guy? That whole case was messed up and has NOTHING to do with self defense.

Chick kills herself with gun, guy almost gets blamed for it because he reloads his own ammo...really only saved because he kept the first two chambers empty. Not a case for self defense, but a case against handloads because of overzealous, anti-gun lawyers.

 

[fuhr52]

Lawyers will do what ever it takes to win. They could care less if a crime was committed.

 

[i8asquirrel]

:bsflag::bsflag:

I have spoken to several LEO's and asked about this. Never have I had one say they gave a bubblegume about the type brand or make of the ommo some one used in a defencsive shooting.........

 

[pokerace]

You here the same problem with the use of Black Talon...

 

[Nwcid]

A lawyer can use the fact that you had used the internet to premeditate about the type of ammo you were going to use to shoot someone..........................

Prosecutor; Sir why did you have brand XYZ ammo in your gun when you shot XXX?
You; Because reading on the internet I should not use hand loaded ammo and that XYZ was the best "one shot" ammo for self defense.
Prosecutor; So you have been planning on shooting someone for how long?

vs

Prosecutor; Sir why did you have brand XYZ ammo in your gun when you shot XXX?
You; When I left the house today I had no plans on shooting anyone and it was the ammo that happened to be in the gun..........


Again lawyers will use ANYTHING they can against you. It is their job and some are better at it then others.

 

[Riot]

Again lawyers will use ANYTHING they can against you. It is their job and some are better at it then others.

You are absolutely correct. As far as most of the anti-gunners think nobody should have guns except the police and they should only shoot people in the limb carrying the weapon (or even the engine block of the vehicle and not the driver).

Having said that- KNOWING THIS, why advocate the use of handloads for self defense? Because of the anti-gunners, black talons aren't being made anymore and 5.7x28mm FMJ is illegal. Most ammo manufacturers now make bullets that are similar to the black talons are now labeled "Law Enforcement" just to avoid this attack again.




You think they have to do it? Nope, they just don't want overzealous, anti-gun regulations against them.

 

[Nwcid]

I am not advocating the use of hand load. I am saying that dont let .000001% of all the shooting cases keep you from carrying what you want to carry. I am saying that no matter what you do in a shooting situation ANYTHING you do or dont do "can and will be used against you". It is one thing if a person carries hand loads because that is what they carry. Now if that same person has made up some "wild load" of his own and bragged about all the damage it could/would do and then actually used it that would be a different case.

Not that it matters but I carry factory ammo in my carry guns.

 

[Hawaiian]

More scary than the ammo you used. If you have an overzealous prosecutor, you can also expect him to ask in deposition what gun forums you visit and what you user name is. He will then pull every post you ever made and read any that assist his case to make you look like a bad guy to the jury. I can't believe some of the posts I read on a public forum. Like "I don't care what the law is, if the SOB steps one foot on my property, I will blow him away."

 

[revjen45]

I'm not a lawyer nor do I play one on TV, but isn't deposition part of a civil process? You can not be forced to give testimony against yourself (in theory anyway) so tell the Persecuting Shyster you take the 5th.

The real problem with handloads is that the evidence (stippling, blast marks, etc.) can not be repeated by using the same lot of factory ammo. So if you shot the assailant at 4 ft they can't use factory ammo to reproduce the effects of the muzzle blast.

 

[Hawaiian]

I'm not a lawyer nor do I play one on TV, but isn't deposition part of a civil process? You can not be forced to give testimony against yourself (in theory anyway) so tell the Persecuting Shyster you take the 5th.
.

If you are charged with shooting someone, murder, they will seize your computer, cell phone and ipad. They will know everything you ever posted on the net. It is standard investigation these days. That is one reason I do not have a Face Book or My Space page.

 

[mat33]

I read though the court link. Maybe I am slow but how exactly did handload ammo sink this guy? That whole case was messed up and has NOTHING to do with self defense.

In this circumstance, the handload produced vastly different performance than the factory ammo. So the ballistics lab, using factory ammo, concluded that the shooting couldn't have happened the way the defendant described. Seems to me the bigger lesson here is, as many have said before, don't talk to the police.

 

[Riot]

I am not advocating the use of hand load. I am saying that dont let .000001% of all the shooting cases keep you from carrying what you want to carry. I am saying that no matter what you do in a shooting situation ANYTHING you do or dont do "can and will be used against you". It is one thing if a person carries hand loads because that is what they carry. Now if that same person has made up some "wild load" of his own and bragged about all the damage it could/would do and then actually used it that would be a different case.

Not that it matters but I carry factory ammo in my carry guns.

A can agree with that...koodos to you for not turning this into an argument and name calling with people you disagree with.