Hand loading just doesn't pencil out...

[tac]

I read about this thing you guys used to have called Magna Carta. It seems like a pretty good idea. I'm terribly sorry you lost it.

Perhaps you can clean out parliament one day and see if you can't find it again.

A coupla/three points here, friend, that might not be obvious until you think about them.

The Magna Carta was a document signed by King John after negotiations with his barons and their French and Scots allies at Runnymede, Surrey, England in 1215. Remember that King John was an Angevin king, and was not only king of England, but also of most of France - Normandy and Maine, Anjou and Aquitaine....and England.

It established a council of 25 barons to see that John kept to the clauses, including access to swift justice, parliamentary assent for taxation, scutage limitations, and protection from illegal imprisonment.

Because he was forced to seal the charter, John sought approval to break it, from his spiritual overlord Pope Innocent III. Denouncing it as "not only shameful and demeaning but also illegal and unjust", the Pope agreed. Magna Carta in its original form was quietly revised and re-written to be somewhat less 'shouty', with a lot fewer 'we wants' and a few more 'it would be good ifs'..

As you can see, it didn't last long - not surprising given the nature of feudal society at that time.

However, Magna Carta has nevertheless influenced English law down to the present day. It is one of the most celebrated documents in the History of England. It is recognised as a cornerstone of the idea of the liberty of citizens, at that time called subjects - there were no republics like Rome, that DID have citizens. Got a president? Then you are a citizen. Got a king or queen? Then you are a subject. Get over it, it doesn't seem to bother around a tenth of the opulation of the planet, me included.

Magna Carta contains 63 clauses. Only three of the original clauses in Magna Carta are still law today. One defends the freedom and rights of the English Church (mainly in the way that the church raised taxes and tithes), another confirms the liberties and customs of the City of London and other towns. This clause (translated) is the main reason the Carta is still famous:
"No free man shall be seized or imprisoned, or stripped of his rights or possessions, or outlawed or exiled. Nor will we proceed with force against him except by the lawful judgement of his equals or by the law of the land. To no one will we sell, to no one deny or delay right or justice".

You must understand that the 'we' here is the King in person, using the so-called 'Royal 'we''. In those days the king would actually traipse around the country, dishing out judgements as a matter of his daily court life. This was actually called a 'progress', from which we get the word 'progression' and 'making progress'. Anybody - from the highest to the lowest - might approach the king with his request for justice at the highest level, if the matter was thought serious enough. Think of Solomon dispensing justice.

This clause, then, limits the power of rulers, and introduces the idea of lawful process and the idea of a jury. The BBC summarised the main points of the document as:

1. No-one is above the law, even the king.
2. Everybody has the right to a fair trial.
3. People who are taxed should have some kind of representation. (Ring any bells here?)

The BBC said the Magna Carta "established a number of important principles, which have been copied around the world. It inspired the US Constitution and the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

And it's not 'you guys'. If you have ANY British, that is to say English, blood in you, even the smidgiest, teeniest amount, then Magna Carta is part of YOUR history, as is every single occurrence that ever happened in English History before the North American colonies became independent. Even after that, in spite of the thinning of the blood over the centuries, all of the history here, like it or not, is yours, too.

tac

 

[Certaindeaf]

Dandy.
This fella has been making his own 12ga slugs for years because the government would cut his balls off if he had anything but birdshot. kinda a catch-22 as it were

 

[2ndtimer]

I don't have a 'British' accent. My day-to-day accent is a kind of mish-mash of English/Southern Irish/Canadian.

And please, 'tac', not 'TAC'. I'm an abbreviation, not an acronym.

tac

I had it as tac, but auto correct strikes again! Too many posts relating to Ramshot powders, I guess.

 

[tac]

Yeah, I know. Perhaps I ought to change it to Flarp and see how it goes........

Flarp

 

[Argonaut]

I am studying the Magna Carta right now. It is complicated...........written by my 23rd great grandfather who seems to be one of the less popular monarchs.

 

[etrain16]

A coupla/three points here, friend, that might not be obvious until you think about them.

The Magna Carta was a document signed by King John after negotiations with his barons and their French and Scots allies at Runnymede, Surrey, England in 1215. Remember that King John was an Angevin king, and was not only king of England, but also of most of France - Normandy and Maine, Anjou and Aquitaine....and England.

It established a council of 25 barons to see that John kept to the clauses, including access to swift justice, parliamentary assent for taxation, scutage limitations, and protection from illegal imprisonment.

Because he was forced to seal the charter, John sought approval to break it, from his spiritual overlord Pope Innocent III. Denouncing it as "not only shameful and demeaning but also illegal and unjust", the Pope agreed. Magna Carta in its original form was quietly revised and re-written to be somewhat less 'shouty', with a lot fewer 'we wants' and a few more 'it would be good ifs'..

As you can see, it didn't last long - not surprising given the nature of feudal society at that time.

However, Magna Carta has nevertheless influenced English law down to the present day. It is one of the most celebrated documents in the History of England. It is recognised as a cornerstone of the idea of the liberty of citizens, at that time called subjects - there were no republics like Rome, that DID have citizens. Got a president? Then you are a citizen. Got a king or queen? Then you are a subject. Get over it, it doesn't seem to bother around a tenth of the opulation of the planet, me included.

Magna Carta contains 63 clauses. Only three of the original clauses in Magna Carta are still law today. One defends the freedom and rights of the English Church (mainly in the way that the church raised taxes and tithes), another confirms the liberties and customs of the City of London and other towns. This clause (translated) is the main reason the Carta is still famous:
"No free man shall be seized or imprisoned, or stripped of his rights or possessions, or outlawed or exiled. Nor will we proceed with force against him except by the lawful judgement of his equals or by the law of the land. To no one will we sell, to no one deny or delay right or justice".

You must understand that the 'we' here is the King in person, using the so-called 'Royal 'we''. In those days the king would actually traipse around the country, dishing out judgements as a matter of his daily court life. This was actually called a 'progress', from which we get the word 'progression' and 'making progress'. Anybody - from the highest to the lowest - might approach the king with his request for justice at the highest level, if the matter was thought serious enough. Think of Solomon dispensing justice.

This clause, then, limits the power of rulers, and introduces the idea of lawful process and the idea of a jury. The BBC summarised the main points of the document as:

1. No-one is above the law, even the king.
2. Everybody has the right to a fair trial.
3. People who are taxed should have some kind of representation. (Ring any bells here?)

The BBC said the Magna Carta "established a number of important principles, which have been copied around the world. It inspired the US Constitution and the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

And it's not 'you guys'. If you have ANY British, that is to say English, blood in you, even the smidgiest, teeniest amount, then Magna Carta is part of YOUR history, as is every single occurrence that ever happened in English History before the North American colonies became independent. Even after that, in spite of the thinning of the blood over the centuries, all of the history here, like it or not, is yours, too.

tac

Flarp (aka tac) - just had to try that - has a nice ring to it.

Well then I'm definitely one of "you guys" myself. Though my family did leave a while back, on a little boat known as the Mayflower. So we've been on this soil for a bit, but have well established lineage back to England.

Interesting write up on the Magna Carta - I knew some of what you noted, but not to that level of detail.

 

[MikeInOr]

For 9mm and 45acp I reload what I want when I want at the power level I want and don't worry too much about cost. I buy once fired brass when I find a really good price and pick up all I can find when shooting without worrying about finding every piece of brass I fired.

Rifle cartridges and less common handgun cartridges are where I really save a lot of money and get loads tailored to meet my needs instead of just buying the cheapest available that isn't really what i want.

I just purchased a 50ae pistol and figured I could reload 50ae for about $0.80 a round. Just over half of what factory ammo costs. I found some once fired 50ae brass and it ended up costing me $0.54 a round qnty. 1000 and I load some hot and some mild target practice rounds. Cheapest factory 50ae I can find is about $1.50 a round. When I reuse the brass the cost per round should drop to about $0.37.

I can't buy 6.5x55 in the quality, accuracy and power that I can reload for at twice the price of reloading.

7.62x39... yeah, I have never even considered setting up a 7.62x39 head for my Dillon 650. .223 I do reload but I only own a target rifle in .223 and don't own a semi-auto. I can get close to the accuracy of my .223 hand-loads by buying quality ammo at twice the price... but cheap bulk ammo does not come close to my hand loaded .223's.

7.5x54 Mas ammo is on my list to figure out the value of reloading. After 20 years I finally picked up some 7.5x54 for my Mas 49/56 and fell in love with the little semi-auto! What a great fun shooter! Who knew the Frenchys could make such a great weapon!

 

[Eddieb460]

I just set up a movie and load cant sit still and it is way cheap

 

[Keys1971]

At least, not for range ammo for common pistol calibers. I can buy 9 mm and .45 ACP FMJ's for .20 & .25 a round, I can't match that even with cheap bullets and free brass, and that's ignoring my time, too. So how do you guys do it? Are you buying components in such vast quantities that the volume discount makes it viable, or do you just not care? Or are you willing to spend the time, assuming you can break even on cost, just for the control? Mostly just curious, later.

Dave

Hello sir. As mentioned elsewhere this is a relaxing and satisfying hobby. But for me, where reloading truly pays off is time spent with my 14 year old son.

When I'm competing with, video games, his friends, and girls, it's just awesome that we can spend a few hours together in the garage teaching him a life long skill. It's also pretty awesome when the 5.56mm rounds he makes shoots sub 1MOA at 100yds. Keys.

 

[Defense Minister]

I'm with you. I'll buy 1000 rounds of 9mm for $160 the day after Thanksgiving and supplement that with other sales throughout the year and I'm good. If you're reloading for a precision rifle, it's a very different story...

 

[awshoot]

never get into reloading for the purpose of saving money. atleast thats what i tell my friends. sure, i can load cheaper than i can buy but after factoring in the cost of eqipment and time its a wash... in my opinion. reloading to me is more of a hobby than it is a money saver. i feel like my rounds are more consistant than factory rounds and also, i enjoy doing it.

I never count the time -- if I wasn't reloading I'd be typing something here or watching TV or whatever. None of those things give me anything tangible let alone shootable. ;-) Unless you are actually able to work 24/7, figuring in your time doesn't really make any sense.

As for consistent or tuned ammo though, I totally agree. For example, I recently tested out a few loads for a new pistol -- shooting from a rest at 7yds my best 5 shot group was 0.54" and my worst was 3.26" while most were in falling around 1.6". The only difference was powder charge. When I load up for target shooting, you can bet I pick the load that is mostly likely to make me look like a decent shot.

Commercial ammo doesn't provide that sort of flexibility (or ego massage unless you get lucky). Also, considering I have to dip into cash I actually earn to pay for ammo, rather than theoretical time-value I could never collect on, reloading is still cheaper almost always. There are rare occasions where commercial ammo comes so close in price I'll buy it (one can always use more brass), but that only ever seems to happen for 9mm.

 

[CLT65]

You always have to figure your time, but I don't mean quite how you might think.

Everyone values their time differently, not only working time, but time doing different activities in general. Would you factor your time playing golf? Of course, because if you like golf, you spend a lot of money to play. That's factoring your time. Some things we pay to do, some things we pay others to do.

If you enjoy reloading and have the spare time, then it's cheap entertainment. If you don't enjoy reloading and are too busy with other responsibilities, then you're a fool if you don't add your time into the cost of reloading. It's different for each person.

Myself, I enjoy reloading but have limited spare time due to other responsibilities. I don't calculate my time into the cost but at the same time I'm not going to load thousands of rounds at a time. Some times of the year I have overtime available at work. I would be a huge fool to pass up overtime to cast bullets or load ammo. Overtime pay is far more than I could save reloading.

 

[tac]

Buying reloading gear to save money is like using a garden hose while it's raining.

It may well cost you less than half the factory price, but you tend to shot at least twice as much.

Over here in yUK, where I'd opine that at least 75% of all fun shooters reload - ALL TR and F-TR, though - reloading is a very big business, and puts a LOT of ££££££££££ back into the economy, even though there are, as ever, rules. You can have as many components as you can afford - my stash of 7mm, .308 bullets (remember that Swiss schtuff shoots .308" bullets) will prolly last the rest of my life. I also lucked in to a thousand 405gr 45-70 bullets when a buddy gave it all up by dropping dead right there in ER.

We have limits on the made-up ammunition we can have, but that doesn't bother me much, since it's a rare occasion indeed if I shoot 700 rounds of 7.5x55 at once...

Most serious deer shooters here use factory ammunition, indeed,many estates in Scotland insist on factory stuff. With the top of the range 6.5x55 stuff from Norma hitting $400/C you can see why the rest of us reload whenever we can. Even .338LM factory stuff is over $5 a pop.

tac

 

[gmerkt]

I'm retired, my time is worth nothing. Before that, I was selling some of my time to an employer and it gave me great pleasure to use my own hours as I saw fit.

OP is right, some common chamberings are pretty inexpensive to buy. Blasting ammo, when available. Still, I load 9mmP, .223 and some other common stuff. I can't remember the last time I bought 9mmP or .223 brass, I've gotten it free off the ground. Price of bullets: I wait until Midway has a big sale on factory seconds/cosmetic blems and load up. Also, I check Rocky Mountain Reloading, they get cast-offs from ATK that can be pretty good. Another time-wasting practice, I sometimes scour the gun show for bargains. First stop, the Saturday only tables way in the back where the non-regulars are usually exiled to. They tend to be occasional sellers with one-off stuff, not like the regular stroke-daddies who have the same old Krapola every show.

Buying reloading gear, you can usually get a PC back on money spent if/when you sell out. If you keep it long enough, price increases over time tend to drive up prices of second hand gear.

I cast some of my own handgun bullets but I don't mess around with stuff that can be bought in quantity cheaply. What I cast tends to be the odd-ball or expensive. For example, I shoot .32 revolvers, I don't bother to cast those for myself. Most .38's I don't cast. But .38-40's and 45 Colts, you bet. Once you can settle on a brand you like, the newer coated cast bullets can be useful and economical.

Good source of free brass. If you ever head down Hwy 395 (like going to the Reno gun show) and find yourself in the vicinity of Carson City, there is a public city gun range east of town along Hwy 50. You can harvest a lot of free brass there, lots of well-heeled California shooters cross the state line and go shooting there, not reloaders I can tell you.

UK or not, I have very little of my components in finished ammo. My empties, those are all cleaned, sized and trimmed, ready to go. All of them. Proper case preparation is the most laborious part of hand loading. Once that's done, the remaining steps are much less work. There are several reasons for leaving it unfinished and they are all well justified. Yes, I keep some factory loads around and a small amount of my own hand loads.

 

[bsa1917hunter]

I reload:
1. For precision.
2. For reliability.
3. To save a lot of money.
4. For hobby.
5. For fun.
6. For odd ball cartridges.

You do the math.

 

[Benchrest]

1,000 RMR 124gr jacketed FN: $82 delivered.
4.6gr CSB-1 $0.013
1 S&B SPP $0.02

1 round my 9mm guns really like = $0.11

Besides, I enjoy reloading

 

[wired]

Everything except 9mm pencils out so I dont do it. 45 ACP and just about everythng else does. Running low though. This winter is going to yield a good 10K rounds of assorted ammo.

 

[gmerkt]

On the subject of why reload 9mmP. Recently, I was in a shooting area and found an unfired 9mm round on the ground. It was a steel case Winchester "Forged" (their trade name) 115 gr. bullet round. When I find these things on the ground, I take them home, pull the bullet and see if I can reuse it. Just because. When I pulled this one apart, the ball powder still looked good, granular, inside case appeared not to have been wet. Threw away the case and powder, set the bullet aside until today.

I had some .38 Super cases to size and flare the mouths. After I did these, I picked up the salvaged bullet to check for fit and it got swallowed in the case mouth, would've pushed all the way in. Next, I checked a .356 plated bullet for fit, it stopped in the flare right away and would've seated nice and tight. Next, I checked a .355 Hornady XTP bullet, it also stopped in the flare and would've seated tightly. Finally, I miked the salvage Winchester bullet pulled from the steel case ammo. I measured .3545 along one side, turned 90 degrees it measured .353.

Summary: The bullet salvaged from the Win. steel case inexpensive blasting ammo was both undersized and out of round. Not the best attributes for achieving accuracy. But I suppose for indescriminate blasting, most such shooters wouldn't be interested in this issue.

Surely all factory ammo isn't in the blasting category. You can buy some better quality 9mmP ammo that isn't bothered by these quality issues. Of course it costs more. But the point here is, the cheap price of low-end 9mmP ammo doesn't mean it's the best and that's why some people handload this cartridge. They do get a quality cartridge for less money. Assuming they do it correctly.

 

[wired]

Steel case anything is probably repackaged Russian bulk plinker ammo.

 

[CLT65]

It's probably not worth my time for plinking ammo, but I still load 9mm too.

I've found that my cast/powder coated loads are more accurate than most factory ammo. I don't shoot much factory ammo but one day I was comparing several types I had against my reloads. I had some commercial plated reloads and some steel case ammo that didn't fare well, some WWB (Winchester) factory 115gr that wasn't that bad, and some Speer Gold Dot (very accurate).

I'm not the best shot around, but on a good day with a good rest I can hold them under 2"@25yards. The Gold Dot ammo was the best, and my cast bullet reloads were a good second. The other FMJ ammo went from mediocre to bad. The average guy blasting beer cans probably wouldn't notice the difference.

One nice thing about reloading is that I don't pay much attention to the cost difference between calibers. I hear people talking about preferring a 9mm over a .40 because it's cheaper, or a .45 Colt being so expensive to shoot. For me they're all about the same. I use scrap lead scavenged off the top of the berm that costs me nothing but time, then a 2 cent primer and 1 to 3 cents worth of gunpowder, for anything from a .32 acp to a .45 long Colt. Even 45-70 isn't that much more.

The biggest expense really is time. I don't really figure my time when reloading; it's just a matter of finding the time.