Gun vs Knife vs Karate in real world self defense ( especially for women )

[blackadder]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned Target Focused Training developed by Tim Larkin. He does a lot of training for various Gov agencies as well as special forces. A good friend and mentor of mine is a retired Fed, and went through TFT on the gov dime. He had spent years learning Shotokan Karate, and had never really learned how to fight until he did TFT. It is focused exclusively on causing injury to an attacker, rather than attempting to cause pain with joint locks, etc. It takes from Krav Maga, but goes much further. While some Krav Maga techniques focus on causing pain, TFT does not use "techniques" but points out vulnerable points on the body you can break or smash to cause your attacker's body to fail. It also really helps you develop the mentality you will need as the target of a violent attack. You do learn weapon disarms, but rather than focusing on the weapon you reduce the relevance of the weapon by breaking your attacker (obviously while not getting shot or stabbed) or using the weapon against them. Rather than focusing on your techniques and form, you are looking at your attacker and focusing on targets to destroy with the goal of completely incapacitating your attacker. This stuff is legit, and makes tons of sense. It can also be really dangerous, and just like a carry piece should only be used to defend one's self. I carry a S&W M&P, but in the 1-2 seconds it takes to draw, some meth-head on the street could stab the crap out of me. Both skills (armed and unarmed) are truly necessary to be prepared to defend yourself.
I should add in the spirit of the thread that TFT does not require being a massive guy with bulgy muscles. You are training to break spots on the body that anyone can destroy regardless of size or gender. You can have the strongest abs in the world, but if your diaphragm is ruptured because you were struck in the solar plexus, you cant breath. You can do 500lb squats all day, but all the muscles in the leg wont stop your knee from breaking if proper force is applied in the right spot.

 

[Koda]

the problem with some of these obscure but specialized forms of training is availability, there are none.... at best one, on the other side of town.

I wont say one is better than another (like the caliber debate) but pick one and master it. Best to be really good at one style than a sloppy beginner at many. It takes practice to master, which means it must be convienient to attend, regularly and consistently. In a way we are limited to whats convienently available in your area.

 

[Karen Payne]

A couple of thoughts here. First off, (and I am preaching the choir here), simply obtaining a firearm with some training is not enough if she did not poses the mind-set to use that firearm, to pull the trigger knowing full well that this decision is possibly to take a human life and many here know that is not easy to do in a non-military situation and even in a combat zone it's not easy for many.

When I think of Martial arts that are not street oriented but dojo centric many are at a lost already. Thinking of Stomper's mentioning that getting hit might be more like a tickle and there are people out there not on any form of drugs or alcohol like this, piss them off and now you better have game and even so that may not be enough for a woman to defend herself as it the real world an average size male clocks a petite female, it's pretty much over.

I have taught many black belts my style of empty hand combatives and each and everyone says something like "Hey that's not fair, you can't do that" and I reply usually with, yes it is unless out on the street you want to end up crippled or dead you do this.

Sadly many woman I have taught are competent with the techniques taught but rarely have the mindset to do what is needed to survive. Heck, many men are no different for the average person. My guess that is not so with many members here but with no disrespect there are some there that could not fully embrace the possible horror and do what is needed in a given situation especially when a knife is involved.

Thinking about a knife, give it to an angry untrained person and it can be almost impossible to defend against without the proper mindset and decent training and even then the mammalian part of our brain want to go into protection mode which is why so many ER victims have defensive wounds, they may stand and protect their core or run, it's human nature.

Martial arts have their place, so do firearms but the key is to have some skill and proper mindset.

 

[aikikenjitsu]

You know, the anti-gun sentiment is so very pervasive here in the Eugene area, that weapons are virtually always discouraged in the media when there is any discussion at all about self defense. This seems to be especially true when it comes to women's self-defense. There are a number of martial arts schools here, where women's self-defense training is heavily promoted. Whenever the issue of self-defense comes up here locally in the press, it seems like the unanimous recommendation for women is always for them to get martial arts training.

Well, we just had a horrible tragedy take place here this week in Eugene, where a single mother of a young child was brutally murdered by her ex-boyfriend for breaking up with him, after he had become physically abusive towards her. By all accounts, she was a very physically fit woman, who had been training in Karate for quite some time. In fact, just a few weeks ago, she showed off a photo on Facebook of 4 wooden boards that she had broken with a roundhouse karate kick. Here is that photo of her, proudly holding the broken boards.

View attachment 261468
.

She also had a burglar alarm system installed in her house, to further protect her family, and summon the police quickly.

Well, her ex-boyfriend broke into her home in the middle of the night, setting off her burglar alarm system, which the Eugene Police Department then responded to. However, upon their arrival to her home, they found the mother already dead, reportedly from multiple stab wounds. Her son thankfully managed to flee the house and safely escape to a neighbor's home, when the ex-boyfriend attacked.

The police searched the area and found the ex-boyfriend nearby in some woods, dead from a suicide. A background check showed that he had a history of domestic violence against women in Arizona, and had served time in prison for felony domestic violence in that state.

So here this unfortunate woman had done everything politically correct to protect herself and her child. She had a burglar alarm system installed that automatically alerted the police that someone had broken into her home, and she had received martial arts self-defense training. Yet, all of that proved totally inadequate in protecting herself from a violent man insane with jealously, and armed only with a knife. And here her home was only 5.7 miles by vehicle from the Eugene Police Department headquarters. Yet, the police could not reach her in time to save her.

Do you think that this horrible tragedy could have been avoided, if someone had encouraged her to get a firearm for self-defense, and get trained in using it?

Could a firearm have leveled the playing field in this incident?

Here is a news report:

http://registerguard.com/rg/news/lo...istory-of-domestic-violence-exes-say.html.csp

.

I have taught street martial arts for years and have used it in the streets. I have taught many women in defending themselves. I have one woman who now is a first degree black belt. You can't defend yourself unless you study a "street" art for a while, or take a good self defense course. I'm semi retired but still teach on the side. If anyone is interested in a very good self-defense course (many women over the years thought it was very effective) e-mail me. I have a dojo, mats and all in my home with my wife. It's in a neighborhood, so it is a club and I can't charge much. A two hour women self defense course is $20.00 plus you get a manual and if you want to come back again two or three times for review, there is no charge.
I have always been disappointed in women that need to know self defense, but don't take it.
A self defense course is only effective if you practice it 2 or 3 times a week on a ongoing bases. That is the only way you will have a real life chance at defending yourself. Anyway my email is:
[email protected]. I live in Puyallup, WA.

You know, the anti-gun sentiment is so very pervasive here in the Eugene area, that weapons are virtually always discouraged in the media when there is any discussion at all about self defense. This seems to be especially true when it comes to women's self-defense. There are a number of martial arts schools here, where women's self-defense training is heavily promoted. Whenever the issue of self-defense comes up here locally in the press, it seems like the unanimous recommendation for women is always for them to get martial arts training.

Well, we just had a horrible tragedy take place here this week in Eugene, where a single mother of a young child was brutally murdered by her ex-boyfriend for breaking up with him, after he had become physically abusive towards her. By all accounts, she was a very physically fit woman, who had been training in Karate for quite some time. In fact, just a few weeks ago, she showed off a photo on Facebook of 4 wooden boards that she had broken with a roundhouse karate kick. Here is that photo of her, proudly holding the broken boards.

View attachment 261468
.

She also had a burglar alarm system installed in her house, to further protect her family, and summon the police quickly.

Well, her ex-boyfriend broke into her home in the middle of the night, setting off her burglar alarm system, which the Eugene Police Department then responded to. However, upon their arrival to her home, they found the mother already dead, reportedly from multiple stab wounds. Her son thankfully managed to flee the house and safely escape to a neighbor's home, when the ex-boyfriend attacked.

The police searched the area and found the ex-boyfriend nearby in some woods, dead from a suicide. A background check showed that he had a history of domestic violence against women in Arizona, and had served time in prison for felony domestic violence in that state.

So here this unfortunate woman had done everything politically correct to protect herself and her child. She had a burglar alarm system installed that automatically alerted the police that someone had broken into her home, and she had received martial arts self-defense training. Yet, all of that proved totally inadequate in protecting herself from a violent man insane with jealously, and armed only with a knife. And here her home was only 5.7 miles by vehicle from the Eugene Police Department headquarters. Yet, the police could not reach her in time to save her.

Do you think that this horrible tragedy could have been avoided, if someone had encouraged her to get a firearm for self-defense, and get trained in using it?

Could a firearm have leveled the playing field in this incident?

Here is a news report:

http://registerguard.com/rg/news/lo...istory-of-domestic-violence-exes-say.html.csp

.

Yes, a firearm could have possibly saved her life. There are small NAA revolvers she could have had on her person all the time. The trouble is, she needed a street martial art tactics taught to her so she could have fought him off till she reached into her pocket for her gun. Defense takes planning, with different levels on top of levels such as gun for one level, self defense tactics for another and so on.

I have taught AKJ-Kenpo (street art) for forty years to men and women and some had to use it and it worked --they said. I still teach part-time at my home with my wife. I can't charge much in the neighborhood, so it's a club. I will teach any woman (s) an effective course for $20.00 donation and afterwards, you can come back several times to review and become efficient in the techniques. But defense is not just about hitting, it's about body movement and arms movement, which alone can save someone. E-mail me and defend yourself. But here's the catch, learn a course and if you do not practice it a couple of times a week, it will be no good to you. The mind remembers, but the body is quick to forget and that is what people don't understand.

I have also had many articles published in two international martial arts magazines.

[email protected]. I live in Puyallup.

Everyone take care.

Sifu

 

[mjbskwim]

You can't defend yourself unless you study a "street" art for a while, or take a good self defense course.

'cough' Bulllshyte cough
It takes a strong mental attitude.There are many street people that defend themselves without any training what so ever because they have the right mental attitude.
They understand that unless they are the aggressor they may lose
Just because someone takes some classes doesn't mean they will do any good in a street fight.
Just sayin

 

[Hamilton Felix]

The mental attitude is everything! My wife has the mindset that if stabbed she becomes angry and kills her attacker (yes it happened, she was a cop in Texas at the time). Col. Cooper knew whereof he spoke when it came to mindset.

Any martial training is good and helps, but there is no magical short course that will make a non-violently inclined petite female (or male, for that matter) the equal of a large young male very violently inclined and violence experienced attacker - or group of same. The gun truly is The Great Equalizer. Find one with which you are comfortable. Practice from time to time. Carry at all times, until you reach the point where you might step outside without your clothes, but never without a gun.

Knives can be devastating (to both parties) at contact distance. Non-lethals like sprays or tasers can be helpful at very close range. The gun can stop attackers before they can hit or stab you.

Carry more options than just a gun if you wish, but never be without at least one gun.

 

[aikikenjitsu]

'cough' Bulllshyte cough
It takes a strong mental attitude.There are many street people that defend themselves without any training what so ever because they have the right mental attitude.
They understand that unless they are the aggressor they may lose
Just because someone takes some classes doesn't mean they will do any good in a street fight.
Just sayin

You better take something for that cough, it might kill you. Just saying.
Sifu

 

[tkdguy]

You better take something for that cough, it might kill you. Just saying.
Sifu

"Sifu" assuming you are disciplined in Chinese martial arts? Am I correct? "tkdguy" 4th dan

 

[tkdguy]

I have taught street martial arts for years and have used it in the streets. I have taught many women in defending themselves. I have one woman who now is a first degree black belt. You can't defend yourself unless you study a "street" art for a while, or take a good self defense course. I'm semi retired but still teach on the side. If anyone is interested in a very good self-defense course (many women over the years thought it was very effective) e-mail me. I have a dojo, mats and all in my home with my wife. It's in a neighborhood, so it is a club and I can't charge much. A two hour women self defense course is $20.00 plus you get a manual and if you want to come back again two or three times for review, there is no charge.
I have always been disappointed in women that need to know self defense, but don't take it.
A self defense course is only effective if you practice it 2 or 3 times a week on a ongoing bases. That is the only way you will have a real life chance at defending yourself. Anyway my email is:
[email protected]. I live in Puyallup, WA.


Yes, a firearm could have possibly saved her life. There are small NAA revolvers she could have had on her person all the time. The trouble is, she needed a street martial art tactics taught to her so she could have fought him off till she reached into her pocket for her gun. Defense takes planning, with different levels on top of levels such as gun for one level, self defense tactics for another and so on.

I have taught AKJ-Kenpo (street art) for forty years to men and women and some had to use it and it worked --they said. I still teach part-time at my home with my wife. I can't charge much in the neighborhood, so it's a club. I will teach any woman (s) an effective course for $20.00 donation and afterwards, you can come back several times to review and become efficient in the techniques. But defense is not just about hitting, it's about body movement and arms movement, which alone can save someone. E-mail me and defend yourself. But here's the catch, learn a course and if you do not practice it a couple of times a week, it will be no good to you. The mind remembers, but the body is quick to forget and that is what people don't understand.

I have also had many articles published in two international martial arts magazines.

[email protected]. I live in Puyallup.

Everyone take care.

Sifu

I just caught the detail after I made the inquiry below. I've been into tae kwon do and karate for 19 years most recently since 2011 as a 4th dan. I agree with much of the discussion that sport martial art is an entirely different ballgame from the street art. Many students do not learn beyond the sport martial art or advance to that level. Full contact tkd or karate comes close for unarmed attackers on the street--but when street weapons are used the ball game changes rapidly. I teach to disable the attacker--in many gruesome ways--if necessary. My "mature aged" upper colored belts and black belts I teach street self defense against the knife as the last resort and to cripple or use the knife against the attacker--lethal if only necessary. I teach gun defense as well. Not all martial arts "sport" students regardless of rank have a head set to fight off a beating in a combative context on the street; sport-related full contact tkd/karate demands certain rules--provides good mental and physical training for the street if the full contact training is seasoned.

 

[aikikenjitsu]

"Sifu" assuming you are disciplined in Chinese martial arts? Am I correct? "tkdguy" 4th dan

Earned black belts in Tracy kenpo and Ed Parker (American kenpo) studied some Aikido. Over the years I added ground techniques (not MMA types) and other things, and no forms (katas), so I call it AKJ-Kenpo because it's not pure American Kenpo. Kenpo is mostly Kung Fu, therefore the Sifu.
Sifu

 

[tkdguy]

Having been on the karate team at UofO many many years ago, I can say:

1) breaking boards is really really easy
2) karate is pretty useless against a gun or in a real fight. Practicing it against someone else
who is fighting "clean" and not out to kill you is more like a ballet than a real fight. It is good
to know some form of fighting , but as a back up to a gun. Now days, I would much rather
learn every dirty fighting trick in the book than rely on karate.[/QUO

I would agree that most sport or lite contact tae kwon do/karate is useless in some circumstances, but advanced karate or tae kwon do that is military grade and weaponized* seems to do the trick for most of my advanced students. ( I judge at competitions and I see lots of full contact teens and young adult black belts that are great fighters in the ring and I would assume they would be very lethal on the street against an unarmed opponent(s). Getting back to "Advanced" Note that I said "advanced" a lot of 1st degrees are weak, second and higher grade with the correct SELF-DEFENSE training and seasoned "HARD" experience is another story.

*Maybe some of you remember the fame of the Korean Marine "Tiger Division" that fought in Viet Nam. The Korean TKD military grade is a formable opponent fighting force.

 

[tkdguy]

Earned black belts in Tracy kenpo and Ed Parker (American kenpo) studied some Aikido. Over the years I added ground techniques (not MMA types) and other things, and no forms (katas), so I call it AKJ-Kenpo because it's not pure American Kenpo. Kenpo is mostly Kung Fu, therefore the Sifu.
Sifu

I've gone a similar route with some Aikido, Hapkido, Boxing and some limited BJJ for escape.

 

[Stomper]

Ching-Ching Pow...

 

[aikikenjitsu]

I just caught the detail after I made the inquiry below. I've been into tae kwon do and karate for 19 years most recently since 2011 as a 4th dan. I agree with much of the discussion that sport martial art is an entirely different ballgame from the street art. Many students do not learn beyond the sport martial art or advance to that level. Full contact tkd or karate comes close for unarmed attackers on the street--but when street weapons are used the ball game changes rapidly. I teach to disable the attacker--in many gruesome ways--if necessary. My "mature aged" upper colored belts and black belts I teach street self defense against the knife as the last resort and to cripple or use the knife against the attacker--lethal if only necessary. I teach gun defense as well. Not all martial arts "sport" students regardless of rank have a head set to fight off a beating in a combative context on the street; sport-related full contact tkd/karate demands certain rules--provides good mental and physical training for the street if the full contact training is seasoned.

There's talk about mind set. Very few people have that warrior mind set, but there is a substitute--and that is constant training. Yes, enough training and if attacked, your body will take over because of your training, it makes your moves reflex action. Trouble is, many think that because it's very clear in their heads and they practice once a week, that they're ready. That's far from reality.
Sifu

 

[aikikenjitsu]

I've gone a similar route with some Aikido, Hapkido, Boxing and some limited BJJ for escape.

I think Hapkido is a very good defensive art. But I would eliminate all the rough, hard throws, I'm 5'2". I think Hapkido is the art that has countless techniques to learn. It's been proven that Aikido used as true self defense, works better as an add on to a kicking and punching martial art.
Sifu

 

[Koda]

im enjoying the new dialog in this thread because ive been training in Aikido and recently am exploring a BJJ gym on the side for some groundwork and eventually some kickboxing they teach there.

 

[Terry Waldele]

Unfortunately, when someone you think you know well and trust is close enough to touch you, turns on you and strikes you with a killing blow, stabs or shoots you, s/he has the element of surprise as a major advantage over you, and all the combat training, expertise and skill in the world probably won't do you any good. I don't think this poor woman had a chance in hell of surviving this attack.

 

[P7M13]

'cough' Bulllshyte cough
It takes a strong mental attitude.There are many street people that defend themselves without any training what so ever because they have the right mental attitude.
They understand that unless they are the aggressor they may lose
Just because someone takes some classes doesn't mean they will do any good in a street fight.
Just sayin

MJB, I wouldn't call it bullsheiit because, IMO, studying any martial art is a discipline and an important piece to the repertoire. Doesn't mean the student is of the right mind set. I think to learn street fighting, and hone your attitude, you have to practice it.
I do disagree on the importance of being an aggressor. I've never trained in martial arts, but having been in enough street fights, I learned aggression without commensurate skill can get your bubblegum kicked. Out of necessity, I learned to study my adversary, to be brutal when the opportunity presented itself and most importantly, to walk away unless there was no other choice.

Had I studied martial arts, I would have put myself in harm's way more often, been more reckless, and probably lost more fights.

 

[aikikenjitsu]

MJB, I wouldn't call it bullsheiit because, IMO, studying any martial art is a discipline and an important piece to the repertoire. Doesn't mean the student is of the right mind set. I think to learn street fighting, and hone your attitude, you have to practice it.
I do disagree on the importance of being an aggressor. I've never trained in martial arts, but having been in enough street fights, I learned aggression without commensurate skill can get your bubblegum kicked. Out of necessity, I learned to study my adversary, to be brutal when the opportunity presented itself and most importantly, to walk away unless there was no other choice.

Had I studied martial arts, I would have put myself in harm's way more often, been more reckless, and probably lost more fights.

We all have things to learn--different learning curve for different people.
Sifu

 

[aikikenjitsu]

im enjoying the new dialog in this thread because ive been training in Aikido and recently am exploring a BJJ gym on the side for some groundwork and eventually some kickboxing they teach there.

Once you're in martial arts to stay, it opens up an entire new world for you; very complex and interesting. If you're training in traditional Aikido then you're using the big circles. There's a styles that is called street Aikido and they practice small circles. The idea of course, being faster and being able to handle more attackers faster. I had to create my own ground because it was too difficult for me (BJJ) being only 5'2" and slim. But I have now 51 ground that works for me perfectly. Like i said, there's a lot to learn.
Sifu