Gun vs Knife vs Karate in real world self defense ( especially for women )

[Koda]

I've looked at a few more local ads for martial arts training, and one ad was designed around the slogan "For health and fitness".

To be honest, I have no first hand experience at all myself with martial arts training. So I am looking at all of this without an personal knowledge myself. But the mere fact that an ad would emphasis "health and fitness", makes me wonder if it really offers any sort of effective self-defense training, and is just an exercise course?

Or perhaps this is more political correctness raising its ugly head. Learning martial arts "for health and fitness" is no doubt more PC, and acceptable to more people.


.

well yes, if you take martial arts it does improve your health and fitness. It is most always a workout... but your absolutely right that advertising that up front, over self defense, is political correctness raising its ugly head. there is something about self defense that the sheeple are in denial. They don't want to look paranoid, gung ho, mall cop or whatever... I don't really know but they don't want to admit self defense. Anyways, training centers need members to stay open so they advertise to the largest crowd. In my experience when I started taking martial arts I simply told the head trainer my reason for being there, straight up, is self defense and I'm getting what I asked for.

 

[Koda]

I grew up with Tae Kwon Do and I can tell you it was competely worthless in regards to fighting tactics. It was great for developing flexibility, cardiovascular fitness and discipline. I dont recall there being much instruction on how to stop a threat. It was more geared on how to score points.

Other studios may have better instruction, but mine sure didnt.

it does seem like there is a TKD dojo on every corner and in every strip mall.

 

[Koda]

Tom makes it look easy to deal with a couple of tough street punks.

this scene is pure hollywood. I like how the other bad guy on the right fumbles with his draw even though he had his hand on the gun in his pocket walking up.

 

[No_Regerts]

it does seem like there is a TKD dojo on every corner and in every strip mall.

The one I went to started using a local middle school gym and then moved to a strip mall!

 

[Koda]

The one I went to started using a local middle school gym and then moved to a strip mall!

I see many TKD places in strip malls often with beginner specials, one place as low as $20/mo.

I don't have any experience with TKD to know if it would be effective in the real world, although I dont see why not if one found a hardcore place of instruction.... I do know that Chuck Norris was a TKD master and nobody beats Chuck Norris. Nobody.

 

[jbett98]

This guy held his own against four bigger guys.
His girlfriend didn't help at all, mostly just got in the way.

 

[mkwerx]

From the time I was nine until I was 19 I went to tae kwon do practice 3-5 nights a week. I got a third degree black belt in our style. Went off and on as I could after that for years but thankfully life happens and I drifted away from it and got some perspective. I got interested in guns from my time as a police explorer (joined late when i was 19 and volunteered till I was 21) - and started to realize traditional martial arts are stylized combat ballet- decendent from real warrior training from days and places where, unsurprisingly, common citizens were unarmed and had to defend against criminals and government thugs alike with only what they had - their body and household tools.

Combat - real combat has always been violent and ugly. Warriors train as a lifestyle to fight.

Most people today don't have the time, money or motivation to devote to mastering combatives. But we can train or practice basic ugly combatives and we can try training our minds - the best weapon - to do what is necessary to prevail.

Board breaking is second kind of cool and is ok for demonstrations of technique, and application of power. Anyone can break one or two or even three relatively easily. Stack up five or six and skill matters or you will just hurt yourself. But board breaking is to real combatives what reading playboy is to having real sex.

Traditional martial arts are great catdiovascular exercise and I sometimes wish I was still doing them because of that daily fitness routine. I was way more flexible back then too. Its also a good foundation for combat skills if you stay with it and learn. While the "self defense" stuff (especially against an armed opponent) we were taught was grade a manure, there were some serious gems to be had. Balance. Moving quickly and dynamically. Developing explosive power and speed. Basic punches and kicks.

If you strip away the flowery holywood looking bs theres good stuff to be had. The down side - it took years going thru color belts and black belt ranks before you started touching on these things. If you strip the bs away and use only tbe core - functional techniques you can teach good basic defense and have people mastering those skills in just a few months.

Instead of kata - sparring and heavy bags will develop speed, strength, and movement plus the added stimulus of responding to the unknown (a human parter) vs practicing pre-formed dances or rehersed moves that only work under perfect conditions and a willing nonresistive partner.

And the pc crowd wont admit girls and boys are different. Bruce Jenner is still a dood even if he looks like a girl. Even a big 150 lb woman - paired up wuth the average 150lb dude is at a disadvantage. If a guy my size - 6'4 @ 300lbs wanted to harm her - no amount of karate or krav maga is gonna save her unless she gets a lucky shot in. A better response is a gun and shooting until it goes click, and then maybe shooting some more.

This gal flat out needed a gun more than karate. A gun or even a ball bat. A knife of her own. But a gun would be the best tool to respond with in the majority of lethal force encounters.

I think we should all be versed in unarmed combatives, verbal deescalation, as well as firearms. But most of us arent cops or soldiers getting paid to train regularly. So we do what we can and have to live or die with our choices. Sadly this gal died by her choice.

 

[U8395279]

this scene is pure hollywood. I like how the other bad guy on the right fumbles with his draw even though he had his hand on the gun in his pocket walking up.

You are absolutely right. Here is an actual mini-documentary, showing all the training that the Hollywood stunt people gave Tom Cruise to prepare him to do that scene.

Note at the 38 second mark in the video that the director claimed that the training that Cruise received was EQUIVALENT to 8 to 12 years of being in the special forces.

I guess that everyone is doing this all wrong. The shortcut to becoming proficent quickly is to become a Hollywood movie star.

Just take a look:

 

[mjbskwim]

Note at the 38 second mark in the video that the director claimed that the training that Cruise received was EQUIVALENT to 8 to 12 years of being in the special forces.

And this video was probably released before the film so they say this so we buy into the movie

 

[Koda]

Ha, more like the training that Cruise received was the equivalent of what it takes to look like you've had 8 to 12 years of being in the special forces. But seriously Michael Mann goes out of his way to produce accurate gun-fighting scenes (the other bad guy may have purposely fumbled his draw but Cruise executed his pistol takeaway, draw, and shooting technique flawlessly...)
I'm actually a huge fan of Michael Mann movies. Follow his movies and the action is a lot more realistic. Most notably his work in producing the tv series Miami Vice... many of the scenes in there he used fully trained modern day gunfighters to play the part. Take a look here in this commentary video comparing that scene in Collateral Damage with the classic movie Thief and everybody's favorite 80s tv show Miami Vice:

 

[The Heretic]

I had a little training by the OSP when I was in the USCG - they taught us a course called "Arrest Techniques" that lasted about a week. How to properly use a baton to disarm someone, how to use and apply cuffs, how to put a person on the ground so you can cuff them. It was practical hand to hand - grappling and such, very limited, but I still remember it after almost 40 years.

That said, it should be apparent to any thinking person that if an attacker gets within touching distance of their victim, this greatly increases the chances of the victim getting hurt or killed, no matter how skilled they are - and especially if the attacker is larger and/or has a weapon.

A firearm not only gives you a multiplication of force - an "equalizer" - it gives you the ability to defend from a safer distance, which is very important if you are being attacked.

 

[OLDNEWBIE]

I'm wondering if this woman was in bed asleep and the break in/stabbing took place in a few seconds?

Gun or not, I'd be dead meat if a determined murderer smashed our sliding glass door for example and ran to my bedroom knife in hand and began stabbing. A loud crash/alarm would wake me but I'd be very disorientated for at least 5 seconds.

This guy was suicidal and cared less about the alarm it seems.

Any updates on the story yet in the News or otherwise?

 

[OLDNEWBIE]

And that's if I hadn't had a few drinks before bed! I do get up to pee at least 3 times a night though. If the timing was right the killer would lose his advantage then.

 

[Koda]

some questioning of the effectiveness of Karate or martial arts, regarding women, in this thread but there is a lot missing from the reporting in the article we don't know. The guy committed suicide afterwards. We know he stabbed her to death but I highly doubt he stabbed himself to commit suicide... did he force his way in at gunpoint? Did she fight the gun away from him and only narrowly lost the battle in the end to his [backup] knife?

 

[U8395279]

I'm wondering if this woman was in bed asleep and the break in/stabbing took place in a few seconds?

Gun or not, I'd be dead meat if a determined murderer smashed our sliding glass door for example and ran to my bedroom knife in hand and began stabbing. A loud crash/alarm would wake me but I'd be very disorientated for at least 5 seconds.

This guy was suicidal and cared less about the alarm it seems.

Any updates on the story yet in the News or otherwise?

No, the Eugene Police Dept is notorious for being very tight lipped about discussing incidents. And since the perp is dead, there will never be any trial for details to come out in.

So we may never know the exact circumstances. I could email the reporter at the Register Guard and see if they are attempting any follow-up.

You can get key lockable dead bolts that can be installed on sliding glass doors, that will make it very difficult to pry them open. I had a locksmith install one on mine. I honestly don't think that smashing through the glass itself would be that easy of an entry. Seems to me that it would be rather tricky getting in through the broken glass.

If you have a burglar alarm, make sure that you have a breaking glass noise sensor in any rooms with sliding doors. That will then make the alarm go off the instant that glass is first broken.

Sliding glass doors are notoriously easy to force open. While many people don't realize that, I think that any smart burglar would attempt forcing the door first. But if you had a deadbolt installed, that effort would be thwarted.

Here is a video showing how extremely easy it is to force open a typical locked sliding glass door:

 

[OLDNEWBIE]

Yeah I know all the tricks of getting into a sliding glass door. I've got mine with a deadbolt pin that would slow someone up but I do think they are tempered glass though.

They might just shatter into safe chunks if a homicidal raging X decides to throw a gas grill through it then swiftly proceed to the Bedroom to stab and kill.

If a guy is all hyped up and raging with no fear of dying or getting caught, unless you live in a fortified windowless bunker, he's getting in. All your security preps will just slow him up.
Hopefully enough to get at your gun.

 

[jbett98]

Drop a broom handle that's cut to fit in the track and tighten up the handle screws.

 

[Johnnny13]

This guy held his own against four bigger guys.
His girlfriend didn't help at all, mostly just got in the way.

This isn't even real.

 

[44 Guy]

What do you mean by "only use joint and wrist locks"? They dont allow you to escalate to defensive tactics once your control tactics dont work? Ive seen several officers get hurt trying to find a way to armbar or figure 4 some guy who is beyond that level of force. Anytime a guy goes into actively trying to cause you arm, you should be allowed to do the same to stop the attack. Stop kicks, elbows, 3-hole paper punch to the face, taser.

Some master defensitve tactics and control tactics instructors have the repititions to use counter joints effectively when someone is anything but statically resisting. Even fewer with a size mismatch. One of the guys I know and used to work with is a wristy twisty instructor who is 10 inches shorter than me and half my weight. If I dont want him to have an entry into a counterjoint, he doesnt get one.

At least where I work, we are not able to strike back. Unfortunately its becoming standard in law enforcement - its called PanAm
P - perceived threat
A - Attempts to descalate
N - Need for force
A - Amount of force used.
M - Medical aid / follow up offered.
Every thing you do must be clearly documented and justified. Know how police gilds / union's fight body cams? Try working in a jail with nearly 400 cams. Every contact you have with inmates is recorded.

 

[44 Guy]

There seems to be a lot of people who have no idea what they are talking about.
Property taught martial arts does work, strip mall martial arts does not. Martial arts, like most sports today, has been over run by soccer moms that think as long as Billly and Suzzie try hard they should pass regardless of their skill. It took me 18 years to find an instructor who taught good knife and gun defensive drills.