Gun vs Knife vs Karate in real world self defense ( especially for women )

[mjbskwim]

Well, my next door neighbor has a baseball bat for home defense. I think that something like that would be better than just having your bare hands in a knife attack.

From what little I know,did I say little? distance if your friend so as long as you don't decide the attacker is afraid of your bat you should do fine
Nowa days you can't rely on the bad guy being afraid of anything

If you are going to have a gun for protection you have to be prepared to "stop the threat" which means willing to shoot, possibly kill to defend yourself.

Anytime anyone asks me about starting to carrying a gun I ask if they think the can kill someone
Not point the gun and scare them,pull the trigger and kill
Oh and I don't PC it up with 'stop the threat' I want them to think about what that means

 

[ZA_Survivalist]

I mentioned (more or less) in another thread just this evening: when (most) girls (or women) execute martial arts on a guy (like me: strong with an exceptional pain threshold) it's mildly annoying, but mostly it just tickles.... sorry ladies, but it's mostly true.

As for her not owning a firearm, and assuming she had the prevailing "Eugene attitude", I suppose she died "morally superior".

I completely agree.
Sure, their training gives them a slight advantage over non trained folks.. But a typical woman 110-180 just will not have the same muscle mass as an attacking male twice her size.. So the only key for that scenario to play out is critical hits to particular areas at the right time.

Im not saying all women cannot physically defend themselves and get away.. The issue I have is the false sense of security non realistic martial arts gives women and those seeking true hand to hand combat training.. And getting useless routines and fluff instead.

They need an advantage, a force equalizer.
More often than not, that force equilizer is NOT going to be her hands or feet, rather a firearm.

 

[308]

I mentioned (more or less) in another thread just this evening: when (most) girls (or women) execute martial arts on a guy (like me: strong with an exceptional pain threshold) it's mildly annoying, but mostly it just tickles.... sorry ladies, but it's mostly true.

As for her not owning a firearm, and assuming she had the prevailing "Eugene attitude", I suppose she died "morally superior".

I dated a nurse a few years back who was a brown belt in Aikido and it was similar to what you described. She got irritated that she could not budge me.

Sorry to read about that lady though. Maybe a nightstand gun would have helped the situation, but when it's our time to go, it's our time to go...I guess.

 

[U8395279]

The issue I have is the false sense of security non realistic martial arts gives women and those seeking true hand to hand combat training.. And getting useless routines and fluff instead.

Well, the other question is: did having a burglar alarm provide a false sense of security? After all, the alarm did work, and the police were notified, and they came as quickly as they could.

We recently had another discussion on this website about advertising from a burglar alarm company called SimpliSafe, which seemed to imply that installing a burglar alarm was the end all solution for safeguarding your home.

Just install a burglar alarm, and the police will quickly be there to save you.

.

 

[P7M13]

Well, the other question is: did having a burglar alarm provide a false sense of security? After all, the alarm did work, and the police were notified, and they came as quickly as they could.

We recently had another discussion on this website about advertising from a burglar alarm company called SimpliSafe, which seemed to imply that installing a burglar alarm was the end all solution for safeguarding your home.

Just install a burglar alarm, and the police will quickly be there to save you.

.

Nope, and we all know that. Only partly why we are here.
My ex's house was recently broken into and ransacked. Her first response was to install a burglar alarm. I explained to the kids that if their dog, a shepherd/husky cross, had been allowed in the house there's a good chance it wouldn't have happened.
For the peaceniks we know out there, have them get a fire extinguisher and place it by their bedside. Preferably AB&C type. It sends out a blinding, choking powder, and the empty canister is a weapon in itself. It's the blinding that counts here.
I think it's a safe 50:50 presumption, that someone breaking into your house is on something (i.e. meth), where capsicum would be useless.

 

[Koda]

Do you think that this horrible tragedy could have been avoided, if someone had encouraged her to get a firearm for self-defense, and get trained in using it?

Could a firearm have leveled the playing field in this incident?

Here is a news report:

http://registerguard.com/rg/news/lo...istory-of-domestic-violence-exes-say.html.csp

.

its debatable if a firearm would have levelled the playing field but we absolutely do know for a fact that having a firearm would NOT have made the outcome any worse...

 

[Stomper]

Nope, and we all know that. Only partly why we are here.
My ex's house was recently broken into and ransacked. Her first response was to install a burglar alarm. I explained to the kids that if their dog, a shepherd/husky cross, had been allowed in the house there's a good chance it wouldn't have happened.
For the peaceniks we know out there, have them get a fire extinguisher and place it by their bedside. Preferably AB&C type. It sends out a blinding, choking powder, and the empty canister is a weapon in itself. It's the blinding that counts here.
I think it's a safe 50:50 presumption, that someone breaking into your house is on something (i.e. meth), where capsicum would be useless.

Dammit... that ABC fire extinguisher is a brilliant idea! I was aware of the chemical dust cloud you can produce with one, it just never clicked in my mind to weaponize it for some reason.

 

[jbett98]

A couple of years ago, a young women was raped and murdered by a guy she had known in high school.
As she was getting in her car to go to work early one morning, he approached her and asked for a ride into Gresham.
She said OK, and once inside, he then pulled a gun on her and demanded that they go up to the secluded Larch Mountain Rd area.
She needed gas for the long drive and video tapes showed her getting gas at a local station before they drove up into the woods where he then raped and killed her afterwards.
My daughter knew this woman from high school and through some close friends.
I asked her after awards when the news broke what she would would have done if this same situation happened to her.

Without a moments thought, she stated that when the guy pulled the gun on her and demanded that they drive into a secluded forest location, she would have said to him "Fine, I'll do as you say, and please, please don't hurt me" and then she said that she would punch the gas pedal as far as it would go and then steer the car into the nearest power pole or other solid object, even if it was a parked car.

Her reasoning was that people always rush to a car crash to help the victims, 911 is certainly called and hopefully medical help would soon arrive.
"Dad, even if he had time to shoot me, I would rather be dead in the wreck then be forced to live through him raping me, and then certainly killing me, since I know him and he knows that I would turn him into the police if I somehow get away."
Plus, she pointed out that only she would have an airbag, as the car wasn't equipped with a passenger one.

At this point in the conversation, she said that without all those years in martial arts, she probably would have behaved just like her friend and thought that she could talk the guy out of the horrible situation and/or by thinking all along that she wouldn't be killed if she gave into the guys demands.

I know martial arts isn't the end all for every situation, but it did change how she see's the world and part of it is to not get your back against the wall with no way out.

 

[Koda]

I'm not the most experienced at it but I'm a big believer in martial arts. I agree its not the end all solution, but neither is the gun if that's your only tactic. It makes no sense to me to walk around with a gun if you don't have the skills to physically retain it. Guns are not up close contact weapons and we live in an up close world where criminals often use furtive movements to close the gap. In my opinion I put more value in martial arts than the gun because there are more situations where physical defense is more likely than armed defense. Guns are just tools and don't forget that if your gun doesn't solve the problem your still in a fight.

 

[No_Regerts]

Even counter joint techniques are only effective toward passive or static adversaries. Once someone is actively aggressive toward you, its about how much damage you can unleash in a short amount of time. Hard kicks to reverse a knee joint, thumbs to the eyes, hammer fists to the colar bones, 230gr hollowpoints to the chest and head.

 

[jbett98]

 

[U8395279]

In my opinion I put more value in martial arts than the gun because there are more situations where physical defense is more likely than armed defense.

Well, but this obviously was not one of those more common situations. I do not believe that anyone could make a reasonable argument that using deadly force in a scenario like this one would not be 100% justified.

And it would be the most appropriate response too, in my opinion. Your ordinary trespasser or burglar is not going to behave at all like this. They would have fled the moment the burglar alarm went off.

 

[44 Guy]

Even counter joint techniques are only effective toward passive or static adversaries.

Not true at all. We can only use joint and wrist locks in the jail. I assure you we get very aggressive inmates who are high or drunk all the time. We also get just flat out aggressive people who know how to "street fight." Its all about the training and paying close attention to what is called pre attack indicators.

 

[No_Regerts]

Not true at all. We can only use joint and wrist locks in the jail. I assure you we get very aggressive inmates who are high or drunk all the time. We also get just flat out aggressive people who know how to "street fight." Its all about the training and paying close attention to what is called pre attack indicators.

What do you mean by "only use joint and wrist locks"? They dont allow you to escalate to defensive tactics once your control tactics dont work? Ive seen several officers get hurt trying to find a way to armbar or figure 4 some guy who is beyond that level of force. Anytime a guy goes into actively trying to cause you arm, you should be allowed to do the same to stop the attack. Stop kicks, elbows, 3-hole paper punch to the face, taser.

Some master defensitve tactics and control tactics instructors have the repititions to use counter joints effectively when someone is anything but statically resisting. Even fewer with a size mismatch. One of the guys I know and used to work with is a wristy twisty instructor who is 10 inches shorter than me and half my weight. If I dont want him to have an entry into a counterjoint, he doesnt get one.

 

[Koda]

I use to train 3-4 hours (no exaggeration) a day in Moo Duk Kwan Tae Kwon Do, Arnis and Kickboxing, I have also dabbled in Tai Chi, Wing Chun and Jeet Kune Do and practiced a wide assortment of MA weapon including, but not limited to the nunchaku, 3 sectional staff, tonfa, bo staff and sai, so you can say I am also a "believer in martial arts".

However, most of these "self-defense" classes out there do little more than provide a false sense of security to their students. Most do not provide any true sparring, I'm not talking about the 1-2-3 dance moves okay let's start over crap, I'm talking about real contact. I doubt the woman in the OP has ever knocked-out anyone out or been knock-out herself, nor cinched up a rear naked choke hold to the point of a tap out or pass out and until the meat has hits the mat it is little more than calisthenics, it is not combative preparation.

And as far as guns are not up close contact weapons, I completely disagree. They are exactly the type of equalizer a 110lbs woman needs to over come a 225lbs aggressive man, because she ain't a gonna get it done grapping with the s.o.b. Google "contact shooting" or "firing from retention" for some decent YouTube videos.

Here:

Bottom line, I fully believe the woman in the OP would have fared better with a Glock than she did with a brown belt and that is what it boils down to, but I guess she'll never know and she won't be the last to find out the hard way.

the video proves my point, contact shooting means being in physical contact with your attacker. At 1:15 into the video: "my focus is to deflect that attack, my focus cant be to reach for the gun... I need to work first and foremost on controlling the attack" (paraphrased). Take a close look at Rob's deflection technique, its a martial arts move similar to Jiu Jitsu perhaps. Anyways, the video is exactly what I'm talking about. If the gun is your only tactic your selling yourself short, there are more situations on the street where self defense will be a contact event than a distance event.

by the way I would love to learn some Wing Chung or JKD but its near impossible to find a dojo that teaches that.

 

[No_Regerts]

I think martial arts is valuable in teaching balance and footwork, no doubt. Athleticism enhances your ability to deploy a weapon, including a firearm.

Unfortunately, if youre not Bruce Leroy, catching bullets with your teeth is a tricky proposition.

 

[Koda]

regarding this false sense of security with martial arts, I think it has more to do with the person than the instruction. In order to train realistically you have to start out statically (step 1, step 2 etc.) and some people learn the steps and stop there.... this is their own undoing and false sense of security. They eventually learn how to do the move (1,2,3,4 etc.) but they don't take it to the next level and learn how to apply it dynamically (sparring freely, any technique allowed). You'll find them at any martial arts dojo and will have to practice with them at times as you rotate parters. I'm still fairly new to martial arts but when it comes time to choose a partner in class I try to pick the ones that reverse my technique if I don't do it right or pop me in the face (gently of course) when I leave myself open. Its all about what you put into it that gives you what you get out of it.

 

[No_Regerts]

regarding this false sense of security with martial arts, I think it has more to do with the person than the instruction. In order to train realistically you have to start out statically (step 1, step 2 etc.) and some people learn the steps and stop there.... this is their own undoing and false sense of security. They eventually learn how to do the move (1,2,3,4 etc.) but they don't take it to the next level and learn how to apply it dynamically (sparring freely, any technique allowed). You'll find them at any martial arts dojo and will have to practice with them at times as you rotate parters. I'm still fairly new to martial arts but when it comes time to choose a partner in class I try to pick the ones that reverse my technique if I don't do it right or pop me in the face (gently of course) when I leave myself open. Its all about what you put into it that gives you what you get out of it.

Thats the only way to get proficient enought to apply a techniqie in a dynamic situation. Unfortunately, like you said, most dont take it beyond the basic stages.

 

[mjbskwim]

I'm sure some have seen this. It can be done but you had better perfect this before the fact

regarding this false sense of security with martial arts, I think it has more to do with the person than the instruction.

Kinda what I was saying about attitude. If you try your 'karate moves' thinking the bad guy will decide to stop attacking you will lose.If you go at it like you have to hurt the guy (krav magra) then you'll do better.
Heck even the basics work good.They get your hands moving in the right direction,as long as you see the mechanics of it all.

 

[Koda]

Yes fighting is a package deal. My point is you're not going to learn those techniques and how they relate to firearm deployment in your typical dojo where the norm is katas and board breaking that just lead to a false sense of security. Time is better spent on firearms training coupled with force on force, it is more combative skills rather than traditional martial arts. You're not earning blackbelts your gaining lifesaving skills.

Firearms training is expensive and thus impractical to train regularly in a paid professional instructor setting. I cant even find a firearms training center nearby that includes force on force. Im curious what that means and what type of combative skills does FoF teach?