Gun show loophole?

[bnsaibum]

We have all heard of the so called gun show "loophole". Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't a loophole some sort of inadvertent omission in a law that allows otherwise illegal behavior to go unpunished?

How can it be a loophole if those private sales that are meant by the use of gun show "loophole" are specifically exempted in the relevant law.
Answer; It can't.

dealer
"18 U.S. Code § 921 (a)(11)(A) any person engaged in the business of selling firearms at wholesale or retail,"

engaged in the business
"18 U.S. Code § 921 (a)(21)(C) as applied to a dealer in firearms, as defined in section 921 (a)(11)(A), a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to dealing in firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the repetitive purchase and resale of firearms, but such term shall not include a person who makes occasional sales, exchanges, or purchases of firearms for the enhancement of a personal collection or for a hobby, or who sells all or part of his personal collection of firearms;" (emphasis mine).

There is no loophole. Any and every time you hear it give them the facts.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/part-I/chapter-44

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[ZA_Survivalist]

There is no loophole. Any and every time you hear it give them the facts.

Exactly. Essentially what they mean is no private sales without forced intervention.. But most are too stupid to know about that.. They just parrot what they hear: "We must close the go show loophole".. I cringe every time I hear it in a speech or debate.

I've talked to folks and mentioned, one should have the right to sell their personal property without being forced to pay "the man" or another person, especially when it's outlined by our constitution.

 

[Just Jim]

Want to shut them up then ask how many felons have been prosecuted for trying to buy a gun under out present system.

 

[The Heretic]

Politicians and public policy advocates lie and misuse words - hence "loophole".

Then others repeat the lie, whether they believe it or not.

Explaining the truth to them that this isn't a loophole won't help in most cases - but it might be worth it to try.

Generally most people don't want to hear the truth - they say they do, but when they get it they don't like it so they fall back on their preconceptions and false world view because it is just too much work for them to process the truth.

So of course, yes, it is a falsehood - intentionally so.

 

[whiskeybill]

Tell and retell a lie often enough, it becomes truth.

 

[3MTA3]

Emotions trump facts for most people, and it's much easier to hide a lie within emotion than fact.

 

[The Heretic]

Emotions trump facts for most people, and it's much easier to hide a lie within emotion than fact.

That's because the emotional part of the brain is a "lower" more primitive part and requires a lot less energy and work to be active.

Most people are functionally lazy when it comes to using their brain - it is just easier to "feel" than it is to think rationally.

That is one reason why even smart people make stupid decisions and come to false conclusions - they may have the intellect, they just don't use it, or don't use it properly.

When faced with something that challenges your preconceived view of the world, it is just a lot easier to dismiss and ignore it than entertain the idea that maybe you are wrong.

 

[44mag2ndamend]

Tell and retell a lie often enough, it becomes truth.

Screwball Hitler used that one and look at the damage he did!

 

[whiskeybill]

It's not just the "Gunshow loophole" argument they use. Every time there is a crime committed with a firearm (at least one big enough to warrant a weeks worth of review by the news), the anti-gun crowd & politicians will tell us that we need more and stricter gun laws. The problem with that argument is, they are not enforcing the laws already on the books. At least when it comes to criminals.

 

[3MTA3]

It's not just the "Gunshow loophole" argument they use. Every time there is a crime committed with a firearm (at least one big enough to warrant a weeks worth of review by the news), the anti-gun crowd & politicians will tell us that we need more and stricter gun laws. The problem with that argument is, they are not enforcing the laws already on the books. At least when it comes to criminals.

Enforcing laws against hardened criminals could get you hurt or killed and might also affect the flow of payola. Far easier to turn the sheep into technical criminals so you can push them around and control them more easily.

 

[RVTECH]

How can it be a loophole if those private sales that are meant by the use of gun show "loophole" are specifically exempted in the relevant law.

Isn't it true though in Oregon ALL gunshow sales MUST be via FFL transfer? I thought this was now the case. If so then the term 'loophole' is a moot term - at least in Oregon anyway.

 

[IronMonster]

I have known of quite a number of folks who have been prosecuted for "felon in possession of a firearm" One personally who had been arrested on I think pot growing charges which was a fairly minor charge (but still a felony, no jail time though) While on probation a home inspection turned up his gun collection which lead to a 5 year jail stay. Another I know personally was a local silver coiner who owns a big, national "mint" He had got busted for not reporting income to the IRS, A felony. He then later got got with some guns and spent hard time ( I think there was some issues with his guns firing more than one round per trigger pull though) Both of these guys where business owners and productive members of society and there crimes where victimless (no one was hurt or lost their property, no violence was committed).

There was just a story in my home town paper about a guy who got 15 years in Idaho for felon in possession of a firearm. Idaho does not mess around when it comes to locking people up. A charge that will result in probation in Washington (such as grand theft auto) will result in years in prison in Idaho. I actually think quite a number of people do time for illegal firearm possession simply because if a bad guy gets caught doing something and has a gun then its real easy to prosecute. No gray area, no worrying about a trial. I think when it comes to firearms crimes it should also be about intent. You catch a felon in the act of committing a new crime and he has a gun, throw the whole damn book at him. There is no reason for lenience.

The "loophole" is a talking point. My feeling is there is a loophole in the loophole as stated below.

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed"

 

[The Heretic]

Isn't it true though in Oregon ALL gunshow sales MUST be via FFL transfer? I thought this was now the case. If so then the term 'loophole' is a moot term - at least in Oregon anyway.

Yes - it is true unfortunately.

Any transaction that started in a gun show must be completed via FFL.

You can't "take it outside" or "offline" once you start the transaction.

You might be able to take a sellers card without talking to them and contact them later - just don't ever refer to the gunshow - but I am not sure how legal even that would be.

It is screwed up.

The "loophole" anti-gun advocates want to close is not about background checks, it is the fact that the background check includes the make, model, type and serial number of the firearm. This closes the de-facto registration loophole - which is the true goal, as a prelude to confiscation. Until they get all or most guns registered this way, they won't be able to put a ban in place because it would be difficult to enforce a ban without know who owns what.

 

[RVTECH]

Yes - it is true unfortunately.

Yes - and I wonder if dealers (FFLs) were influential in changing this. I recall back in 'the day' when at gunshows there used to be MANY people walking around with guns with for sale signs hanging off them - a few went home with me back then and I NEVER stopped to even look at a dealer's 'wares' I was there to find good, private deals.

 

[The Heretic]

Yes - and I wonder if dealers (FFLs) were influential in changing this. I recall back in 'the day' when at gunshows there used to be MANY people walking around with guns with for sale signs hanging off them - a few went home with me back then and I NEVER stopped to even look at a dealer's 'wares' I was there to find good, private deals.

I doubt they supported it.

I look at every table. You never know what you will find. If I really want something and I haven't been able to find it privately, I will strongly consider buying it from a dealer.

It does depend on the firearm though - for years I wanted a .50 BMG but would only buy it privately because of all the talk of banning them (haven't seen anything recently, but they are banned in California).

 

[whiskeybill]

Enforcing laws against hardened criminals could get you hurt or killed and might also affect the flow of payola. Far easier to turn the sheep into technical criminals so you can push them around and control them more easily.

Now you're not implying that OUR government is as corrupt, if not worse, than the Mexican government?

 

[The Heretic]

Now you're not implying that OUR government is as corrupt, if not worse, than the Mexican government?

Corrupt in different and less apparent ways.

The Mexican government is so corrupt that it is dysfunctional in the sense that those who run the government can't even control what various agencies do or who controls them.

The corruption in the US government is much more subtle and a LOT more hidden and it is a lot more "functional" in the sense that those in power can actually do what they want to do within the constraints of the system.

Also, the corruption of US gov. is so subtle and hidden that most people are not aware of the degree of corruption because on the surface the government seems to work for them.

Mostly this is because those in power are intelligent enough to realize that working within the constraints of an alleged "democracy" and supposedly working legal system keeps the deep corruption hidden from the populace. Those in power have less overt power and much more covert power which allows them to remain hidden and makes their powerbase more secure. They "wisely" go with the flow instead of getting too greedy and demanding absolute power.

 

[bnsaibum]

I think when it comes to firearms crimes it should also be about intent. You catch a felon in the act of committing a new crime and he has a gun, throw the whole damn book at him. There is no reason for lenience.

Agreed. It is appalling how many get away with recidivism and even with repeated recidivism.

"But he was just getting his life turned around and back on track".

Yeah... right.

The "loophole" is a talking point.

It's more than a talking point. It's a rallying cry, albeit a fallacious one and one that far too many people believe. Don't let people walk away thinking it is true.

My feeling is there is a loophole in their loophole as stated below.

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed"

Reads better for me this way.

 

[bnsaibum]

Isn't it true though in Oregon ALL gunshow sales MUST be via FFL transfer? I thought this was now the case. If so then the term 'loophole' is a moot term - at least in Oregon anyway.

Even though there is no gun show "loophole" in Oregon and a handful of other states, there are those in Oregon as well as many of those other states who say the "loophole" still exists for private face to face sales. When you hear anyone speak about it make sure they know the facts. Private sales are specifically exempted in federal law and are in no way a loophole.

 

[The Heretic]

Private sales are specifically exempted in federal law and are in no way a loophole.

However, as far as anti-gun people are concerned, this in itself is a "loophole".

It doesn't matter that the law was intended to allow private purchases - they want ALL purchases to require a BGC - and the powers that be want them too so they can get their de-facto registration and eventually confiscation.

My dad saw this decades ago - he never bought any firearm via an FFL until he was retired. The only firearms he ever bought before he was retired, were from the NRA/DCM as WWII surplus - several Springfields, an M1 carbine and a 1911 - and that was well before the GCA.