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Other State Gun Purchase Registry
- Thread Starter FreedomPI
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Correct - from my understanding (not a lawyer or legal expert though) the FOPA in 1986 banned a national registry of guns but states that already had them were grandfathered in.
FFLs are required now to keep all their 4473s for at least 20 years (thanks for the correction @Rkangel), and if they go out of business the records go to the ATF.
FFLs are required now to keep all their 4473s for at least 20 years (thanks for the correction @Rkangel), and if they go out of business the records go to the ATF.
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This.
Although I would add that the ATF collects info from manufacturers -> distributors at the outset from my understanding. Also, the ATF has been increasingly collecting info from the POS (point of sale), i.e., the retail FFL.
As for a registry, I think it is safest to assume that there is a registry - not a complete registry (which is why the gov is pushing for universal BGCs) - but whatever data the gov (state & feds) do collect, they almost assuredly keep that data in some DB somewhere.
As I have pointed out before, as a retired IT pro with 30+ years experience, I know that data gets shared and backed up - multiple times. Most every IT system that has data that is used for decisions/etc., almost always has the same data shared (often in different forms) among different systems - e.g., the software I worked on at DTNA had at least 4-5 different systems that the same data went thru in order for a truck to get spec'd and ordered, then sold and delivered - probably 5-10 more systems after the fact (not including the data we used from dealers/etc. to fix their data and test our systems). These are different systems, ranging from laptops at the dealers, to dev systems (dev, QA, staging and prod) to all of the other engineering and manufacturing systems.
It takes a concerted and diligent effort to scrub that data from all those computer systems, and even IF the gov did try to scrub it (which I doubt they even try, much less are capable of it), data leaks from systems and somebody somewhere has that data.
So just assume that any firearm you have bought that went thru a BGC/FFL or otherwise thru any gov system that had your name associated with it, wound up, or will wind up, in some gov DB somewhere.
Was it as long as they are in business or 20 years?
Either way it is a safe bet that anything with a serial number is in a database somewhere...even if it is not supposed to be. Laws don't seem to apply to the powers that be.
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I just did a search and you're correct (will edit my original post) it appears it is 20 years, it looks like the ATF "prefers" FFLs to keep records as long as they are in business however after 20 years it is not legally required.
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It's 20 years under federal law, though in practice and my experience most shops just keep them forever.
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This is why I have often wondered if a private sale (in say Oregon) that takes place through an FFL, but later if sold FTF ILLEGALLY, then later again LEGALLY through an FFL might somehow be discovered due to the current seller NOT showing as the current owner of the gun.
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There is also no federal prohibition on states creating their own databases. But even where a state has a law prohibiting that state's government from creating a gun registry it is safe to assume one exists on a computer somewhere, as Heretic explained above. .gov can combine manufacturer and original FFL sale records with other records (emails and gun website messages) to trace many guns if they want to go to the effort of obtaining search warrants and subpoenas.
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It might - with the right DB query and data, it certainly could be.
If (when) confiscation comes around, I think that data will just be used to go around and knock on doors for those people who did not turn in their guns, or all of their guns. It would be useful in court.
There is the exemption for close family, and what about those people who are deceased and owned guns? Is the gov going to be knocking on the doors of the family members?
It depends on how hard the gov wants to press. I am thinking - given what little I have heard of other first world countries that went that route (OZ, NZ) - that the gov will just rely on voluntary compliance, but in the USA, they won't get much - at least, if they did it today they wouldn't (indeed, they would risk a civil war if they did it today). Who knows what the mindset of the populace and gun owners will be in 20-30 years. Hopefully we will never know, but I think that is wishful thinking.
What about the USA states that have banned or implemented registration for certain guns?
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The NSA records and analyzes almost all electronic data comms that it can acquire, which is almost everything (at least in the USA). Also, the gov has implemented relationship metadata analysis to know who has relationships with other persons and what kind of relationship they have. They gather info from financial transactions, phone/text/email, employment and income records, and so on.
So yeah, unless it is a gun show handshake deal in a "free" state with a FTF private sale and cash exchanged, the gov knows a lot about what you buy/sell and the parties involved. Guns, ammo, whatever - they know it.
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True but what about older guns that were bought in pre-computer BGC era, never sold or sold FTF when it was legal or in states where it still is?
I bought some guns several years ago (pre SB941) that had been purchased new in the '70s and I am only the 2nd owner.
Hence the reason they are attacking privately made or un-serialized firearms, and digitizing 8+ billion paper FFL records, and playing games with the 4473, and pushing for universal background checks. It has nothing to do with reducing crime and everything to do with creating more criminals and control.
For pre SB941 sales they will simply go after the last person on their books and make that person's life hell. The psychological chilling effect is the same. They want people thinking to themselves, "If I've ever been associated with a serial number or transfer or purchase, I may be a future tyrant's target, therefore I should distance myself from all firearms." As such they achieve multiple goals. Create fear then use that fear to reduce the number of people who would exercise their rights. They have used this formula to great success in social and mainstream media when it comes to silencing the first amendment. The second amendment is no different to them.
For pre SB941 sales they will simply go after the last person on their books and make that person's life hell. The psychological chilling effect is the same. They want people thinking to themselves, "If I've ever been associated with a serial number or transfer or purchase, I may be a future tyrant's target, therefore I should distance myself from all firearms." As such they achieve multiple goals. Create fear then use that fear to reduce the number of people who would exercise their rights. They have used this formula to great success in social and mainstream media when it comes to silencing the first amendment. The second amendment is no different to them.
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Well now there is an online permanent record of those 70's guns.
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Then those guns are relatively "off the books". But that may not help if the owner of record remembers who they sold it to - usually that is not the case, but it depends on the person.
Correct me if I am wrong, but the other day I thought I read that Biden's latest EO included wording that said the 20 year limit on record keeping was no more. FFLs must maintain all records no matter how old going forward, with all records going to ATF if business closed.
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Oregon law requires a background check for all transfers including those that take place at a gun show and between private citizens. Per OR statute, Records of the transactions are kept for five years.
If you believe the OSP actually deletes the records after five years I have a bridge that I would like to sell you.
So, if you bought a firearm from an OR FFL ten or fifteen years ago, OSP know about it.
If you believe the OSP actually deletes the records after five years I have a bridge that I would like to sell you.
So, if you bought a firearm from an OR FFL ten or fifteen years ago, OSP know about it.
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Ca keeps those records. Recently they started requiring a background check to buy ammo. There is a form you can fill out to see what the State knows about, and I was surprised at what showed up on my record. Some I did not think there was any way they knew about, and some that did not show up that I thought would. There were still others that I no longer own. So they have records, not complete records , or even up to date records, But they have them. DR
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