Gun pointed at me

[Mainsail]

Sadly, it's always the people who give the words more value than the message the words convey that are the most surprised when they have an ND.

But that's sometimes how we have to teach people; we have to dumb the rules down to the lowest IQ person in attendance. Understanding the nuances of the rules is beyond them, so we force them to recite the words.

After 20 years in the AF I became vary familiar with people who know the rules by rote, yet openly disregard them in practice.

Anyone who claims they treat all guns as always loaded 100% of the time are either deceiving themselves or never clean or function check their guns. The same can be said for 'people are shot by unloaded guns' as well.

But we shouldn't discuss it, because often times civil discussions are out of reach for the people that only know the words. They usually get jobs at the gun counter of the big-box stores, mishandle the guns, and we have threads like this.

 

[Mygrainman]

Wow.

It's OK to be wrong. You're discussing like the antis discuss; mind closed.

@IronMonster is not being being closed minded at all... He is however rightfully irritated by someone poking at him by calling him out originally on semantics, then later going into a BS crusade on hyperbole, and dumbing down of rules. A word of advise... Try leading with that next time, rather than insulting a valued member of our community, then backpedaling into it. We tend to stick up for each other around here... It's an NWFA thing.
The fact is, this is a rule that needs to be dumbed down to some, and doing so has no negative effects on it, or its purpose. I told my kids when they were younger to imagine there was an invisible laser beam coming out of the muzzle... how's that for hyperbole? They knew there wasn't literally a laser in the muzzle... just as the people of this forum know how to interpret IM's post. One word... CONTEXT.

...back to the Original post...

Go into any REAL gunshop(one that has experienced, compitant salespeople) and ask to see their "UNLOADED" gun bullet collection.

It's an unwritten rule that if you are stupid enough to enter a GS with one in the chamber, on purpose or not... that round is forfeit.
In the course of a year, most GSs can easily fill a Mason jar with shells. Multiply that by the number of shops across the country, and that's enough to supply a small army with ammunition.

Everybody has "brain farts"... and complacency is a huge factor in accidental tragedy.

If everybody that ever handled a firearm knew and followed Cooper's first rule:
-All guns are always loaded.
The number of accidental deaths and injuries would plummet.
If you always assume the gun is loaded, and anytime you pull the trigger, even if it's something as routine as taking the slide off your glock... point it in a safe direction... somewhere that invisible laser beam won't hurt anything... eventually muscle memory will start to make it a reflex like your hands going to your mouth when you feel a sneeze coming on.

 

[Camelfilter]

Except safety and muzzle awareness (point of thread and part of safety) doesn't cost them the sale. My point is these guys are generally not that intelligent.

As a tech VP I had stopped going out. My GF did all the shopping and mostly still does. I just could not deal with the morons anymore. I pay more in taxes than two of the guys at the Cabelas gun shop combined GROSS in a year and then some....And don't get me started on the cashiers at grocery stores. It's like I'm dealing with children. The reality of it is a lot of your low level service people are idiots. I'm sure this will ruffle some feathers here and I'll get flamed, but it's really just those people self identifying...If these people had the intelligence and education to do something else, they would...It's not like people don't like making six figure salaries or something...

A bit harsh & a grossly sweeping generalization.

I too make a similar salary, but treat people like...people.

Some good, until proven otherwise, some not so good, until proven otherwise. Most as professional (even the checkout folk), some with an extra bit of patience.

I go an extra bit to not wave any deuch-snobbery around, unless it's being waved in my general direction.

I'll ask folk here, have you ever had a manual labor job? If you did, you should never forget! If you didn't, then try one before opening your mouth on the subject (as above) ever again.

 

[Mainsail]

The fact is, this is a rule that needs to be dumbed down to some, and doing so has no negative effects on it, or its purpose.

We won't agree on the last part of that statement; I contend it does have an effect.

I told my kids when they were younger to imagine there was an invisible laser beam coming out of the muzzle... how's that for hyperbole?

That's an excellent teaching tool- good on you for thinking of it, sounds effective. It is not hyperbole though; that's not what the word means.

... just as the people of this forum know how to interpret IM's post. One word... CONTEXT.

I understood his post- I pointed out that such blanket exaggerations are counterproductive. There was no backpedaling.

 

[Koda]

Anyone who claims they treat all guns as always loaded 100% of the time are either deceiving themselves or never clean or function check their guns. The same can be said for 'people are shot by unloaded guns' as well.

I'm one of those, Coopers rule #1 says to treat every gun as if its loaded, even when they are not. Thats how I treat them 100% of the time. I'm open minded and willing to learn, not offended by discussion... so please tell me how I cant clean my guns and especially function check them without treating them like their loaded?

 

[Koda]

Mygrainman's entire post above nails it all perfectly...

Everybody has "brain farts"... and complacency is a huge factor in accidental tragedy.

This is the reason I'm a stickler for Coopers 4 rules. Build those 4 rules in your muscle memory and you wont have an accident and even if the gun had a mechanical failure completely on its own you still wont injure or kill anyone. Its that simple, and its that "bombproof", Coopers 4 rules.

Thing is when we allow exceptions, like "Its OK I unloaded it" we then create a new rule that contradicts the 4 main rules because it allows us to handle the gun differently than prescribed in Coopers 4 rules. And if there is one exception, then there are other exceptions too so now you have an excuse to add those too...

But there really aren't any exceptions, only deceptions... because an exception means your creating a rule use condition that allows you to ignore Coopers 4 rules, like when your cleaning your gun. At some point in our lives, were all human and anyone can have a "brain fart" and you don't want to have one of those exercising an exception to the 4 rules.

Cleaning, training, function checking, administrative loading and unloading, holstering and unholstering, anything else?.... none of those require anyone to violate Coopers 4 rules or you need to reevaluate your method and technique.

 

[Mainsail]

... please tell me how I cant clean my guns and especially function check them without treating them like their loaded?

Nice try. The claim is that "all guns are always loaded". I accept that people don't really believe that- because only a fool would function check a gun that's loaded, and that it's an exaggeration. My argument is that making those sorts of exaggerations is counter productive. I've explained why already.

But to your argument- You cannot clean your gun and treat it like it's loaded. You can, however, clean your gun and treat it with the respect it's due. If you own a glock for example, you would never disassemble it without a clearing barrel (you need to pull the trigger to do so). How many glock owners own a clearing barrel?

 

[johnny bob]

You can lead a man to knowledge, but you cannot make him think.

Er... Wait. Is that the one about the horses

Well that reminds me of a shirt I saw in a garden store "you can lead a horticulture but you cant make her think". Also the "You can lead a horse to water but you cant make them drink" could be amended to add "but you can salt their oats". Even then there are some that are just too far off you cant reachem or teachem.

 

[Mygrainman]

×
hy·per·bo·le
hīˈpərbəlē/
noun

1. exaggerated statements or claims not meant to be taken literally.
   
   
   If saying there is an invisible laser beam coming out of the muzzle isn't a claim not to be taken literally, I'm not sure what is.
   
   
   Arguing semantics, grammar, and punctuation only takes away from the meat and potatoes of conversation and makes things personal. it is a pet peeve of mine when I see a thread go there, and I admittedly become a huge hypocrite and go after the culprit.
   If you disagree with a statement that was made, or have an opinion to share, even if it is an unpopular one... Great!
   People may disagree, but it's not going to hurt feelings, as long as you are addressing the issue, not the people discussing it.

 

[Koda]

Nice try. The claim is that "all guns are always loaded". I accept that people don't really believe that- because only a fool would function check a gun that's loaded, and that it's an exaggeration. My argument is that making those sorts of exaggerations is counter productive. I've explained why already.

But to your argument- You cannot clean your gun and treat it like it's loaded. You can, however, clean your gun and treat it with the respect it's due. If you own a glock for example, you would never disassemble it without a clearing barrel (you need to pull the trigger to do so). How many glock owners own a clearing barrel?

no, my claim the entire time has been to treat all guns as if they are always loaded. Ive never claimed that "all guns are always loaded" and my concern is that a new person lurking here might read into that as an excuse to an exception to the 4 rules once they've unloaded the gun.

But to the argument we might be reaching a consensus, using a clearing barrel is actually treating your gun as if it were loaded so yeah I agree with you there. You know you just unloaded it, but you still use the clearing barrel because you know your only human... thats treating the gun as if its always loaded.

I knew it, we were arguing the same thing all along

as for clearing barrels, you also can use an object you don't care about in the same manner, or maybe a structural corner in the garage that would absorb the bullet but has nothing behind it, you don't need a clearing barrel they are just ideal. If you want to function check your gun, same thing. Administrative duties, same thing.

 

[Flymph]

Sadly, it's always the people who give the words more value than the message the words convey that are the most surprised when they have an ND.

But that's sometimes how we have to teach people; we have to dumb the rules down to the lowest IQ person in attendance. Understanding the nuances of the rules is beyond them, so we force them to recite the words.

After 20 years in the AF I became vary familiar with people who know the rules by rote, yet openly disregard them in practice.

Anyone who claims they treat all guns as always loaded 100% of the time are either deceiving themselves or never clean or function check their guns. The same can be said for 'people are shot by unloaded guns' as well.

But we shouldn't discuss it, because often times civil discussions are out of reach for the people that only know the words. They usually get jobs at the gun counter of the big-box stores, mishandle the guns, and we have threads like this.

Are you trying to point out that some people are parrots with a few parlor tricks?

 

[Alexx1401]

no, my claim the entire time has been to treat all guns as if they are always loaded. Ive never claimed that "all guns are always loaded" and my concern is that a new person lurking here might read into that as an excuse to an exception to the 4 rules once they've unloaded the gun.

But to the argument we might be reaching a consensus, using a clearing barrel is actually treating your gun as if it were loaded so yeah I agree with you there. You know you just unloaded it, but you still use the clearing barrel because you know your only human... thats treating the gun as if its always loaded.

I knew it, we were arguing the same thing all along

as for clearing barrels, you also can use an object you don't care about in the same manner, or maybe a structural corner in the garage that would absorb the bullet but has nothing behind it, you don't need a clearing barrel they are just ideal. If you want to function check your gun, same thing. Administrative duties, same thing.

I tend to do all my gun cleaning in 1 or 2 places. Most common is family room where the desktop is. Large table there. My clearing barrel in the floor in front of me. Never had a red faced oops but, if I did all I would have to show for it besides the red face would be a small hole in the wood floor since it would go into the ground under. I saw this as a kid one day, just back from bird hunting. Buddy's Dad handed him his gun to take and put away. As we are walking into the living room he set his gun down and pulled the trigger on his Dad's. Made a nice golf ball size hole in a huge front window. Lesson I have always remembered

 

[Andy54Hawken]

Lets keep in mind ...
That all of the comments , say basically the same thing:
Do not point a gun at another person...
All of the posters here in this thread , do not like having guns pointed at them.

It seems that we all have different , yet safe ways to keep from pointing guns at others.
Do you have a safe method that keeps you from pointing a gun at someone? , Does it work for you and the situations that you find yourself in?
If so , then great , keep it up....If not find one , quick.
This really shouldn't be a big issue....

Now if we will , lets go back to the OP topic of a Gun Pointed at me ....
Thank you,
Andy

 

[Camelfilter]

Thanks Andy!

And I apologize for an off topic ramble!

The 4 rules always apply. Hard stop.

We go over them every time we go out shooting, no matter whom is joining in that day. Old salt or new hand, it doesn't matter, 4 rules are gone over (along with any range specifics).

-loading up the truck for some Turkey day pew pew pew...

 

[Andy54Hawken]

No worries and no need to apologize Camelfilter...
I was not pointing anyone out...Just posting a reminder to all.....
Andy

 

[orygun]

Most accidental shootings happen with "unloaded" firearms. Statistical fact.

And probably while they are being "cleaned". '

Every time I hear this about a shooting, I cringe. Some dilweed is playing around with his loaded gun and when something or someone gets shot it's always, "I was cleaning my gun." Lame-o excuse.

As far as being in a gun store, I have only handled one gun recently and the guy did it right. The handguns are in the display case muzzle towards the customer. He pulled it out, lowering the muzzle, turns away from anyone, opens the cylinder, then closes and hands to me, muzzle to the sky.

You can bet your butt I was watching.

 

[orygun]

I'm of the opinion that a pawn shop and a Gunshop should Never be remotely considered the same.

The background check BS has prompted many pawn shops to want a piece of the action. I've been to one a couple of times and see that they are actually pursuing firearm sales, sometimes with brand new guns. The folks at the store are certainly capable and nice to deal with.

But it's not a gun shop to me either.

 

[Certaindeaf]

.As far as being in a gun store, I have only handled one gun recently and the guy did it right. The handguns are in the display case muzzle towards the customer. He pulled it out, lowering the muzzle, turns away from anyone, opens the cylinder, then closes and hands to me, muzzle to the sky.

You can bet your butt I was watching.

Well that's debatable. Whenever I hand someone an empty revolver it is with my fingers/thumb through the frame (the cylinder is swung open) and with the grip towards them.

 

[orygun]

Well that's debatable. Whenever I hand someone an empty revolver it is with my fingers/thumb through the frame (the cylinder is swung open) and with the grip towards them.

In this instance I believe there is more than one right way. I'd do it as you do, but was comfortable with the way it was done. I hand people semi autos with the slide locked back.
One other thing, I immediately opened it back up because that's just what you do when handed a gun.

 

[KKG]

I'll freely admit I don't know what is happening with pawn shops in other States. In WA the pawn shops have been very, very active in the gun business because it makes them money even if they don't have a clue what Guns are all about. An FFL Dealer in WA CAN'T take a Gun in unless it's on consignment or being purchased. I'm of the opinion that pawn shops have a license to steal!