Gun Lost By Dealer

[uscsoldier]

Since the dealers not in business any longer lets organize a rally on the sidewalk in front of his home residence

 

[Brutus57]

It is somewhat delicate, The FFL owner is well known and well liked, I can't reveal his name here at this time, many people did business with him on a handshake basis. I have always had good experiences when interacting with him, When I dropped off the shotgun at his place of business he was very busy and just had me write down my name address and phone number to put with the gun.

I am sorry....is there any one on this forum that doesn't recognize all the guns we OWN or have owned? I can't imagine anyone not realizing when they have a gun in front of them it either belongs to them or someone else... Any one have a gun they don't remember buying or trading for? If you do, it's likely MINE and I want it back.

Brutus Out

 

[clearconscience]

How is the ATF not locking this guy up for doing business that way?
I know a lot has changed, but when your in business especially one as sensitive as that you do it right or bad things come your way.
Maybe that's why he's out of business.

 

[The Heretic]

Report it stolen and give the police and ATFE his info and a copy of the police report. Hopefully that will jog his memory. Then, small claims court.

Yes - this.

It is essentially what happened.

If that doesn't result in the return, then file a claim in small claims court against him personally and his business and find out how good his insurance is.

 

[wired]

How is the ATF not locking this guy up for doing business that way?
I know a lot has changed, but when your in business especially one as sensitive as that you do it right or bad things come your way.
Maybe that's why he's out of business.

The ATF really doesnt work like that. A few kitty stompings and baby carrying women shootings in the 80's and people think they have power. They dont exercise it much any more. Theyre kind of like the IRS in that regard. They became political liabilities and got neutered. As a dealer you have to screw up repeatedly over a period of years and multiple warnings to get shut down by the ATF and much more to get locked up. Selling a gun you werent supposed to sell MIGHT get a visit by a field agent but it wouldnt get anyone locked up. You'd have to do that sort of thing repeatedly to become a blip on the radar.

 

[The Heretic]

Every little bit helps when dealing with an incompetent (at best) or dishonest (at worst) person.

 

[mjbskwim]

Well I think you are quite nice by not putting his name out cause that's what I would have lead the thread with.
Even if he is a popular guy,his friends would see his name and maybe let him know he did wrong.

 

[Brutus57]

He should be working ASAP to make it right. as a PP said, it should become his life goal to get this fixed. Period, Excuses are useless. One thing if it was a Glock or SKS on consignment, a family heirloom is a whole nother thing.

Brutus Out

 

[elsie]

Since he is a dealer that went out of business, he has probably shipped off his 4473s to the ATF. If he hasn't, he should go through them and find out who he sold it to and arrange for its return. If he has, he should work with the ATF to get the info.
This is an object that can't be replaced. It has meaning beyond monetary value and it is his responsibility to make it right.


elsie

 

[Member 5605]

I have a picket sign ready....

 

[U8395279]

It is somewhat delicate, The FFL owner is well known and well liked, I can't reveal his name here at this time, many people did business with him on a handshake basis. I have always had good experiences when interacting with him, When I dropped off the shotgun at his place of business he was very busy and just had me write down my name address and phone number to put with the gun.

You gave him such a valuable and treasured family heirloom without asking for any receipt???

That is really quite incredible. I always got a receipt for my gun whenever I would take one in to have some gunsmithing done to it.

ATF regulations are very strict about the requirements to keep records of any firearms that FFL's take in. From your description, it sounds like this FFL holder was breaking the law with many of his customers. Was he shut down by the ATF for violating ATF rules?? Was that why he suddenly had to go out of business so very fast?? That would explain a lot of what you have been describing here in this thread.

It is beginning to sound like the man was a criminal, and he spotted you as being a naive and easy mark that he could take advantage of.

If I were you, I would call the ATF and make a complaint against him. Give them a detailed description of the gun, its serial number, and a photo of it too. That way you can prove that it really does belong to you.

 

[U8395279]

I would have some mighty initimidating conversations with him to jog his memory. Likewise call the ATF, do the police report.

Yes, he definitely needs to call the ATF and report him.

The ATF's local field office is in Eugene. The phone number to reach them is (541) 342-1525.

.

 

[U8395279]

How is the ATF not locking this guy up for doing business that way? I know a lot has changed, but when your in business especially one as sensitive as that you do it right or bad things come your way.
Maybe that's why he's out of business.

Exactly my same thoughts too.

Sounds like this FFL was a shady character. I'm getting the feeling that this "loss" of his shotgun was deliberate.

 

[U8395279]

If you cannot get the shotgun back, the Cabelas in Noblesville, IN has a really nice Model 12 in 16 gauge that is in very good condition. And they only want $600 for it.

Contact either of the two Cabelas stores here in Oregon, and they could ship the shotgun here for you to buy it. That way you could replace it, and still have something to give your son.

Cabelas also listed the shotgun on gunsinternational.com:

Winchester Model 12 16 Ga (http://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-for-sale-online/shotguns/winchester-shotguns-model-12/winchester-model-12-16-ga.cfm?gun_id=100726645)

 

[Swedish K]

The ATF really doesnt work like that. A few kitty stompings and baby carrying women shootings in the 80's and people think they have power. They dont exercise it much any more. Theyre kind of like the IRS in that regard. They became political liabilities and got neutered. As a dealer you have to screw up repeatedly over a period of years and multiple warnings to get shut down by the ATF and much more to get locked up. Selling a gun you werent supposed to sell MIGHT get a visit by a field agent but it wouldnt get anyone locked up. You'd have to do that sort of thing repeatedly to become a blip on the radar.

I beg to differ - a friend was raided by ATF and several other alphabet soup agencies (the pizza delivery guy showed up about 30 min after they hit his house with a stack of pizzas for the raid team 5 feet high). They seized several items that were not on the warrant (which was based on lies from the ATF agent who claimed a replacement M60 channel without trunion or bridge was a machinegun when its not even considered a firearm) then sat on it for almost 3 years. One day they showed up and charged him with over a dozen felony weapons violations taking him from his place of work directly to booking then a courtroom. They refused to produce requested discovery evidence or acknowledge that he was licensed for everything he was charged with as a responsible party on an 07/02 FFL with a 10 ( basically licensed for NFA and destructive devices ). After another 2 years of failing to respond to discovery requests ATF representative and the prosecuting attorney offered a plea to a federal misdemeanor for storing in excess of a pound of powder within 75 feet of an inhabited dwelling that came with 6 months probation and full restoration of rights upon completion of probation. The judge was a bit pissed at this boondoggle and said he could return to gunsmith work while on probation but, per probation rules, couldn't have his guns at home. He finally checked his guns out of the shop he works for a few months ago and took them home. All this and he had broken no laws but if he somehow lost the case his gun rights and career would be gone forever.

From my experience when I had my FFL I saw many people who screwed up that were in turn used to set up others for the ATF. As a general rule, if you hear that gun dealer X got busted by ATF for this or that felony and a few months later he comes to you trying to sell you this or that off the books so he can afford his attorney I strongly suggest that you say no thanks and immediately contact your attorney.

 

[U8395279]

After another 2 years of failing to respond to discovery requests ATF representative and the prosecuting attorney offered a plea to a federal misdemeanor for storing in excess of a pound of powder within 75 feet of an inhabited dwelling that came with 6 months probation and full restoration of rights upon completion of probation.

Is that really true? People cannot have over a pound of gunpowder stored in their home? Does that not make reloading ammo difficult??

I've never reloaded ammo myself.

.

 

[Swedish K]

I believe technically its black powder, not smokeless. He is also a licensed pyrotechnic guy so he may have had a few pounds in his garage but it also could have been they just offered it as an out so they technically got a conviction even if it was a misdemeanor and was to be sealed and not used against him should he apply for an FFL of his own in the future.
IIRC black powder in excess of a pound is to be stored in a proper explosives magazine and/or at least 75 feet from any inhabited dwelling.
As far as I know he still hasn't had any of his seized items returned, including 3 new full autos he had just completed for the shop that he took home to engrave (legal btw).

 

[Swedish K]

I believe technically its black powder, not smokeless. He is also a licensed pyrotechnic guy so he may have had a few pounds in his garage but it also could have been they just offered it as an out so they technically got a conviction even if it was a misdemeanor and was to be sealed and not used against him should he apply for an FFL of his own in the future.
IIRC black powder in excess of a pound is to be stored in a proper explosives magazine and/or at least 75 feet from any inhabited dwelling.
As far as I know he still hasn't had any of his seized items returned, including 3 new full autos he had just completed for the shop that he took home to engrave (legal btw).

Short of calling to verify what section he was charged on I looked at the ATF regs and it appears that because he had a pyrotechnic license he was required to use a storage magazine, however anyone with over 50 lb of black powder is required to use one. I'll see if I can get ahold of him sometime this week as searching the ATF info is a time consuming pain... unless I'm specifically looking for ways around a particular law lol

 

[PiratePast40]

If it's a guy in Salem that works out of a shop behind his house, might be hard to get him to do anything. Funny thing is that he runs hot and cold. Can be a great guy sometimes and other times a real jerk.

 

[wayoutwest]

SO everyone keeps saying to report it stolen, was it really stolen. OP gave it to the FFL who sub'ed it out to the GS. GS got it back to the FFL who kept it, lost it, sold it, traded it away?? OP and the FFL were in a business relationship and this sounds like its a complete matter for the court. Now i'm not a lawyer or AFT agent but I don't see it as stolen.

OP how long has he had this gun? Any paperwork trail? How long have you been trying to get it back? Is he avoiding you/your contact?