JavaScript is disabled
Our website requires JavaScript to function properly. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser settings before proceeding.
That got your attention, didn't it?

But it's not so dramatic ... I'm an American living in England. Until 1920 over here, you could go to the hardware shop and buy a revolver and even carry it concealed. The Law didn't care.
Then came WWI, the Russian Revolution, and a lot of social unrest. The British ruling class got worried about guns in the hands of militant workers, so they passed a law requiring them to be licensed. Now, only farmers and wealthy businessmen who hunt can own guns. Handguns are absolutely forbidden. You can shoot at a range if you're a member. I'm on a waiting list. By the way, if you check the homicide rate for Britain in 1898, when guns were freely available, and in 1998, when they weren't ... you may be surprised. (Or you may not.) In any case, the homicide rate was a lot lower then than it is now.

(I shoot my nephew's AR15 when I go back to the US every summer, but I pretty much got satiated with shooting that model when I shot its granddaddy the M16, fifty years ago, thousands of rounds all paid for by Uncle Sam.)

Anyway, I'm here because I've gotten increasingly worried about the direction the US is taking. Politically, I'm probably closest to a JFK/FDR 1960 Democrat. (I grew up in Texas in the 1950s and we were all Democrats -- there was supposedly a Republican in Dallas but no one really believed it.) But that's long gone, and the Democrats, or a lot of them anyway, seem to be being pulled far to the Left ... or up into outer space .. by some really sinister forces. I've watched the latter slowly take over American academic life (I'm an academic myself), where they have spread a deep anti-Americanism, which now seems to be turning up everywhere.

So ... I want to talk to people who might also be concerned, get your ideas about what is happening, why it's happening, and what we can do about it. I've got some ideas of my own, as well, one of which I have already posted.
 
There is a guy who owns another forum I belong to. He lives in the UK also. This is a picture of his firearms (minus an Auto Mag and an AMT-IV that didn't make it into the picture).

As tac pointed out, you can have them.

View attachment 619724

Yup, you CAN have any kind of handgun you want, IF you live in Northern Ireland, also part of the UK.

OR, if you live in Great Britain - the island of England, Scotland and Wales - and you are prepared to pay a fortune to first buy and then keep your guns in one of eleven secure locations in England - none in Wales or Scotland - and visit it to shoot it.
 
Doug1943 wrote some interesting comments about the UK and guns. Owning a gun in Britain is not for the faint of heart. There are definite restrictions (e.g. Black Powder pistol after the carnage in Scotland) Yes for the 'few' a long gun or pistol can be owned legally. However there as here, there are more than a few illegal weapons circulating in the populace. Ammo is the hardest to obtain but can be purchased off the 'back of a lorry', also guns, but you have to know or be accepted by the 'right' people. When my relatives (very close) come to visit they are shocked at the sight of guns readily available for sale in the major sporting good stores! And they are overjoyed by the easy opportunity to be able to shoot at a indoor or outdoor range. Shooting (plinking) is what I like and since leaving Britain in the mid - seventies I get to do it whenever I wish here in the States and I don't need to belong to any formalized club etc.

Just like swords, guns are available in the UK!
 
Brexit has not happened because while the majority (barely) of people voted for it, the majority of their representatives in Parliament are against it.
I don't know any more than that. Even if I had a strong opinion about it, I wouldn't be very forward in offering it, since people tend not to like foreigners getting involved in their affairs, although I've lived here a long time. About half the people I know are for it and the other half, against.

I will say this, though. When all this started, Mr Obama said that in any renegotiation of trade deals, if it left the EU, Britain would be "at the back of the queue".

And my reaction was a bit emotional when I read that, as I wanted to say, "Back of the queue? Back of the queue? That would be a new experience for them, since, in 1940 and '41, up until 7 December, they were at the front of the *****ing queue facing the Wehrmacht and the Luftwaffe, and in fact they were the only people in the bloody queue, and in Korea, they were at the front of the queue again, on Hill 235 at the Battle of the Imjin River where if they had run to the back of the queue the Chinese Army might have captured Seoul and we might have lost the war; and in Afghanistan they weren't at the back of the ******ing queue either for the last sixteen years and a thousand of them are still there, and 405 of them took their last breath there, having been killed, at the front of the queue, while serving alongside us; and they weren't at the back of the ******ing queue in Iraq either, where 178 of them were killed during the six years they were with us there ..... so .... you President Commander-in-Chief who doesn't even know what a 'platoon' is ... go ... .... .... oh well... got to watch that blood pressure at my age.... Can't go out and burn up a couple of magazines to let off steam.
 
@Idaho44 - Here we are talking about the LEGAL acquisition of firearms for sporting purposes, NOT something to bling up your rep in the 'hood.

I really have no idea what you mean about the 'few', so I'd be grateful if you could take a moment to explain.

It's a FACT that shooting here in UK is a minority sport, in spite of the year on year increase in the number of LEGALLY-held firearms being held by sporting shooters. You seem to be implying - and forgive me if I've gotten this all wrong - that the general public are clamouring their millions to get hold of guns, but somehow they are being prevented from doing so because they are not 'wealthy' enough or don't know the 'right people'. As a sport, shooting is misunderstood b y most people, most people, that is, who live in cities and who might not EVER have come into contact with any kind of shooter or shooting.

The average Joe or Joette really does have NO idea how many people DO shoot, or even it it's legal. Ask anybody walking down the street in London about shooting, and IF they speak English, they'll look at you as though YOU don't.

As for me, you seem to know far too much about getting hold of illegal guns, and the ammunition purchases off the 'back of a lorry' for my liking. I'm a legal gun-owner, and I do none of these things. Not does anybody I know.

Let's get down to the gritty here with your comment about owning a gun in 'Great Britain is not for the faint-hearted' - what do you mean by that comment? I've explained, countless times, even on THIS forum, that you have to be a member of a gun club to justify ownership of a target rifle or handgun. What's the problem with that in a country where gun ownership is a paid-for privilege, and not a protected right? Just like you have to have a good reason to go shooting pests, or game, or engaging in professional conservation.

Why should it be something that is 'not for the faint-hearted' - are you for real?

Sure, it COSTS.

£80 - that's around a hundred dollars, for FIVE years.

Twenty bucks a year?

Hardship?

Gimme a break.
 
Doug,

Thanks for your insight into Brexit.

From what little I've gleaned on my own Conservatives are for Brexit - The left is against it - I 'think' that's right.....?
 
You are overlooking the ones in the middle - the Liberal Democrats. I've spent the last few years trying - not too hard, I'll admit - to figure out quite how you can be a hard-line middle-of-the-road politician.

Anyhow, without getting too political about it, Mr Corbyn, the socialist who looks a lot like the late V I Lenin, and models himself strongly on his hero, is a dyed-in-the-wool follower of political fashion. Political fashion, that is, that was the mainstay of the original Soviet Union.

More than that I'm not saying.

Right now there is a VERY good thread over on sister forum sigforum.com that has been, so far, without the usual detractors of anything remotely construed as being British getting much space in it. I've learned a lot by reading it, and I commend it to anybody here with a modicum of interest in what goes on over here.

Needless to say, since I'm as foreign on THAT forum as I am here, I've stayed well away, since I prefer to let national politics remain the property of the nationals concerned with and affected by them.
 
The U.K is not all that bad you can acquire firearms just a few firearms licensing courses and permit to acquire. All the same welcome aboard

WARNING LONG POST! READ AT YOUR PERIL, KINDA.....

'kaaaaaaaay. I live here and it is definitely NOT like that at all. There is no such animal as a 'firearms licensing course', as firearms are not licensed. You have a 'certificate' that certifies that you are a suitable person to be allowed to acquire and possess a firearm [or, in my case, nineteen of 'em].

At the risk of becoming a PITA, here is the skinny on the whole deal here on mainland GB - Northern Ireland is slightly different, as they count ALL airguns as firearms and they are allowed to have modern cartridge-firing handguns that look just like those in your LGS.

Take a deep breath, pour yourself a large coffee - or beverage of your choice, and read on...................

This post does not include much detail about game shooting [deer, feral hogs, feral goats], pest control [professional or amateur] or shot-gunning of any kind. These are all different here in UK, and require a different approach to authorising. So, although they might be mentioned in passing, there is no detail. Suffice it to say that there is NO handgun hunting in the UK, and NO black powder mammalian hunting either. NO bow-hunting, or crossbow hunting.

I'd be grateful if this could make this a sticky, as it would help me out from having to dig it up and post if for our newcomers who might be interested to know what goes on over here, in our 2500+ gun clubs of all kinds.

Here goes - please ask questions, but any attempt at flaming will be met with silence from this end, 'kay? It might be unpalatable to anybody raised in the USA, but here it is all the LAW and not negotiable. You comply, or you take up frog-stretching or tree-fondling instead.

Here in UK[except Northern Ireland] , if you go along with a pal to his gun club as a guest [usually twelve times a year, for members to show their spousal units and pals/colleagues what they get up to], and think to yourself, WOW!!! I could get interested in THAT for sure!

Sooooooooooooooooooooooooo,

1. You join a gun-club that does the kind of shooting that you think will appeal to you. Apart from a few commercial ranges - not open to the general public who are not part of the firearms industry - and a VERY few private individuals who have their own land and facilities, there are NO ranges that do not have gun-clubs, and NO gun-clubs that do not have ranges. No matter what kind of range it is, EVERY range in the country is an official government-sanctioned range, and EVERY gun-club is part of the National Rifle Association or National Small-bore Rifle Association. So every member of every gun-club right from the start is also a member of either or both of these two national associations, by association. That's the insurance thing settled, although you can, of course, take out private insurance with the British Association of Conservation and shooting [BASC] as well. BASC are good to have on your side when the inevitable conflict of interests occurs - they have their own team of lawyers.

2. You then serve a three-month/six probationary period, during which you learn all about shooting lots of different guns and disciplines simply by getting to shoot lots of different guns and taking part in different shooting disciplines. Just about anything you care to mention happens here in UK, except for what I call 'proper' handgun shooting with a modern-style handgun that still LOOKS like a handgun – more of that later. Most noobs get a mite bewildered by the club members offering them lots of different guns to shoot [I have nineteen, so it can take a while], and most, at first, ask if they can pay for the ammunition. The answer to tosh like this is simple - when YOU are a full member, YOU let a noob shoot your gun, and pass it all on along, right? You CAN buy ammunition at the club, in four or five calibres, but you cannot take it away with you. THAT, friends, is a criminal offence. You can, if you wish, take empties away for future use for reloading when you get your Firearms Certificate [FAC or 'ticket']. Here in UK, and in the much of the rest of the world, an empty cartridge case is a piece of brass with a hole in one end, and not any kind of live round – unless, of course, you live in Washington DC or the Republic of Ireland. As a noob without any form of gun-owning documentation, the only guns you cannot shoot on a club range are shotguns that shoot more than three rounds, or any shotgun firing slugs, or any kind of long-barrelled handgun of the kind permitted on mainland UK. Northern Ireland does NOT subscribe to this, BTW, and you can shoot anything that another club member puts in your hand. This sad stricture is a Home Office thing, and applies to EVERYBODY on mainland GB, not just noobies/probies.

3. During this time, you are, of course, being watched like a hawk for anything odd that might give people cause for concern about your suitability to own firearms of any kind. Standing in a corner muttering to people that only you can see is a sure-fire way of NOT getting any kind of gun certificate. Notice that it is called 'certificate' and not a license. Lots of folks get confungled about that.

A certificate CERTIFIES that you are deemed to be suitable person to be allowed to acquire and possess a firearm that would otherwise be illegal to do so.

A license LICENSES you to do something that you would otherwise be unable to do legally without the benefit of that document.

Clear?

No?

Don't worry, very few of us here can tell the difference either.

So, back to the guy muttering in the corner. Many of us shooters are a mite odd, but just not THAT odd. And anyhow, shooting is a social thing - people who do it like to talk to other people about it. This is called 'instinctive teaching' or, more correctly, 'bragging'. If you don't like to talk to people, then you are most likely not a suitable candidate for any kind of shooting sport. Michael Ryan, the Hungerford mass-murderer, wasn't a member of a gun club, and didn't like people much, as he later proved by killing sixteen of them and wounding another fifteen for life. Here in yUK we like to think that the way that the FAC application form is now laid out [after a massive revision of the terms of reference and the conditions demanded in it], render this kind of appalling act of violence a lot less likely.

4. During the probationary period, you are tested, at least twice, on safety and safe handling and general knowledge on the firearms use scene.

5. At the end of the three/six months, the secretary tells you that you have done just fine [after the usual committee meeting about prospective new members], and to go ahead and fill out your application for your FAC. This can be found online - it's called an FAC1 if you want to look for yourself. In this application, you get to ask for permission to 'acquire and possess' the guns that you think that you would like to shoot.

So, your first application will be multiple firearms of the rifled-barrel type - usually a .22 rimfire rifle or carbine, a .223 centre-fire rifle or carbine, maybe a .308Win for target work, maybe a 38/357 or .44/44 underlever rifle or carbine for the sheer fun of it, or any kind of black powder firearm or rifle, carbine or handgun [of the kind permitted on mainland UK]. You also ask for as much ammunition for each gun that you think that you will need at any one time. You provide two referees who have known you for at least two years - NOT a serving police officer, or official of the club or any person with a police record. You also have to give permission for the licensing authority to ASK your GP if you are epileptic or a habitual user of hallucinogenic powders or liquids, if they feel that it's necessary. Some county authorities are requesting a letter from your doctor - one of our national associations, BASC [look it up] is fighting this imposition into our privacy. Alcoholism IS a problem, if you are a noted or documented sot, as is any record of violence, threat of violence or the threat of or use of threatening behaviour. Having such a record will usually stop your application dead in the water. Note that you will have made a 'Declaration' to the fact that you are NOT a habitual drug-userv of illegal substances, or epileptic, nor in the habit of taking mind-altering meds etc, in the body of the FAC application form. Lying about this will get you 3 - 5 years pokey, as the application form is, in UK legal terms, a 'sworn document', and you will be rightly guilty of attempting to obtain a firearm/firearms by deception. Your FAC application, BTW, costs ATM £80, and is non-returnable IF, in the unlikely event, you are refused a FAC. BTW, implicit in the FAC is the fact that having been granted it in the first place, that you can reload your own ammunition, up to the legal amount you are permitted to possess for each calibre. No course is necessary for this, although the UK NRA DO run such a useful little course as a money-spinner. Looking at the the young lady who runs it is well-worth the fee, so I'm told.

6. You buy and fit a suitable gun-safe – usually made right here by Bratton who know a thing or two about such furniture. As such it conforms to the British Standards Institute requirements for domestic and professional security furniture. Nothing else than a made-for purpose gun-safe is permitted, not even, as I saw once, a refrigerator converted into a 'gun-safe' that had been painted a natty shade of Rustoleum silvery blue.

Note that the fitting of a domestic alarm is NOT a compulsory requirement, until you have around 12 or 16 Section 1 [Rifled] firearms. I live in an outlying village, so it makes sense to have at least one [I have two]. Here in UK it makes not the slightest difference in the level of police response, no matter how many and of what kinds your alarms. If you get burglarised then the police will come around the next morning, maybe flap a few bits of paper around - even take a photograph or two for the station album to show willing, give you a crime number and b&gger off. You are unlikely ever to see them or hear from the again unless your guns were stolen, in which case they get a trifle concerned, make a note of your FAC details and circulate a list of your guns around the nation.

Given the extreme unlikelihood of any self-respecting crook holding up a corner store with your 1862 Snider or F-Class target rifle and getting caught in the act, that is the last you'll ever hear of it.

When I asked if any enhanced level of response in terms of rapidity of attendance might accrue from having a monitored alarm system fitted, one wag in uniform said that tearing round to the location with 'blues and twos' alight in an immediate response to 'attend the scene of the crime' was unlikely in the extreme, since the miscreants were, at that very moment, armed, albeit with MY guns. Suffice it to say that where I live, the Chief Constable supports the idea of people having monitored alarms, in spite of the fact that the Home Office guidelines make absolutely NO mention of the necessity for fitting even a basic system. The words say ' secure accommodation', so if you have seen any crime-buster TV programmes where the boys in blue have been trying to gain access to some scumbag's dreary little domestic unit on a sh&tty estate in Buttwipeville-on-Glum, you'll have seen with your own eyes just how hard it is to gain any kind of access to a house fitted with even the most basic modern double-glazing uPVC doors and windows, let alone do it surrepticiously.

We digress.

Back to the process.......About three weeks after you submitted your application, the representative of the county police Firearms and Explosives Licensing Department, a guy called the Firearms Enquiries Officer [a civilian] comes around for coffee and biscuits/cookies, finds that you are what you say you are, checks out your safe, mentally agrees with your referees, shakes your hand and bids you good day. In our club there are five such people - invariably shooters of all kinds themselves, widely experienced in most, if not all aspects of the shooting sports, they are usually retirees from the police or military or conservation, in one case, all three.

7. Your FAC plops into your mail box a couple of weeks later, and off you go to the gun dealer to spend all your money on guns, and, if you want to give it a try, any and all reloading gear to get you started making your own ammunition, like 90% of all other shooters do here.

8. After a while, you give another discipline a try and find that it takes your interest, so you apply for a variation to your FAC for another firearm of the type you wish to shoot. It costs atm £40 to do this, but if you wait until renewal time, it's free. Same if you wish to swap out same calibre guns on a one-for-one basis.

9. Your FAC lasts five years and cost £80 to renew. Renewing it does not require you to justify your reasons all over again - you've already done that over the previous five years, and, in any case, anything aberrant that might cause concern has been notified to the licensing authority by the club secretary...it is not being a snitch, it is his or her legal duty to do so as part of the Home Office guidelines he or she has agreed to abide by on taking on the duty.

Any infringement of range safety that shows that you are acting irresponsibly where live firearms are concerned is, of course, a matter for everybody around you, and whereas a simple and thoughtless action such as touching your gun while folks are forward of the firing point will earn you a loud ticking off, pointing it at anybody with obvious malice will get you kicked out of the club instantly and permanently. The club secretary is obliged to inform the licensing authority without delay, and you WILL lose your FAC as a result. No club membership = no 'good reason' to own any target firearm, since that is THE condition under which you are able to acquire and possess a firearm in the fust place. Since the inception of the UK's HOLMES [yup, true], that information may have been passed to all 51 mainland county licensing departments and the PSNI, and you'll have to take up knitting.

As with most things, the more you do, the more you learn, and you improve as you get more familiar with your guns. There are always club coaches, like me, an NRA coach and former British Disabled Shooting Association instructor, to help and advise, and the opportunity for you to put something back into the club by doing an RCO course, like almost 30% of our 400+ membership has already done.

I've been asked by an interested person if all this personal instruction/mentoring and so on costs the probie anything extra to his or her initial joining fee.

'course not. Everybody HAS to learn initially and safety is of paramount importance where firearms are concerned. It stands to reason that somebody who is safe and sure in his or her handling of guns is, uh, safe and sure...experience comes with confident handling of the firearm, and that comes with use and 'doing it' under the watchful eyeball of the person alongside you on the firing line.

The only things that cost are extra-mural courses like those run by the NRA at Bisley, and the RCO qualification course that so many of our club have successfully completed. The NRA black powder RCO course is at your expense, but it's a hoot, and well-worth the time and effort these days with so many shooters turning to BP firearms because of the sheer fascination of the things. It's also the only way that most folks on mainland UK are EVER going to hold a full-sized big-bore revolver that still looks like a big-bore revolver. It is usual to save up the number of RCO course applicants to around ten or so, and get the peripatetic NRA RCO course instructor to come to us - cheaper all round, too. We have also a number of club members who are instructors for the British Deer Society qualifications, at all three levels of expertise, but that's really outside the remit of this post, which is primarily concerned with the target-shooting aspect of shooting sports.

I've ignored Practical Shotgun so far. A fast-growing branch of the shooting sports, it requires a Section 1 [Rifled] firearm FAC, even though the shotgun is still a smoothbore, and is VERY exclusive. If you are NOT the certificate-holder, then you can't shoot it to try it out - simples. Same goes for long-barrelled handguns. Revolvers are in any calibre, as they are manually-operated, but semi-autos are, well, semi-autos, and only available in .22LR.

Hope this is useful.

As a matter of interest, one well-respected member of another forum wrote me off-post, saying -
'But I disagree that one person has the authority to kick a person out. (Secretary) The reason could simply be a personality conflict. Maybe I did not understand the total process to remove people. Maybe it is from reports by more than one member and then action by the Secretary of the Club? That would make perfect sense.'

Apart from the very obvious mention of a 'personality conflict], something I've never encountered in ANY of the gun clubs of which I've been a member, ALL of us on the range at any time with the probie are going to be VERY aware of his or deportment around live firearms. It will be perfectly obvious, VERY early on, whether or not the person is going to be a safe pair of hands to own a gun of any kind. We can ALL talk to the club secretary, after all, at one time or other many of us have actually BEEN the club secretary. At any time there are likely to be a 50/50 split of qualified RCOs/shooters on the line. If the person displays any obvious quirks, as, indeed, one such candidate for membership did a few years back, he or she will just be advised that perhaps shooting is not for them, and earlier rather than later. This particular person came and would arrive and stand very quietly behind the line, but did not engage in conversation with anybody, although he responded when spoken to. He never offered an opinion on anything, nor did he ever engage with anybody else, except when shooting a club gun. He did it all competently, but without any obvious enjoyment, and then left without speaking, saying goodbye or KMA. He obviously suffered from some kind of social inadequacy and in THIS country, after the few mass shootings had taught us the hard way, we don't like such loners to have legal access to guns. It's best to nip it in the bud rather than say later at County Crown Coroner's court that yes, we knew he was a total dwong and wholly unsuited to owning anything more lethal than a spoon, but.......................

The decision was taken by the committee, based on the recommendations of the club secretary who is, of course, an active participant on the shooting line, just like any other club member. So WE tell him/her of our misgivings, he/she listens to us and makes his or her own mind up, and takes it to the committee who then say yea or nay. The county police HQ Firearms & Explosives Licensing Department are informed of the decision of the club committee, and the probie is asked, gently, to leave the club. There is, of course, nothing to prevent him or her from shooting an air rifle or pistol in a club that caters for that kind of shooting, or from joining an Airsoft group, or even a re-enactment group, so long a no live firearm is involved. But NOT a Section 1 [rifled] firearm or even a shotgun. Remember that part of the application involves the declaration that you are not on any kind of meds for any mind-variant condition, or epilepsy, or the kind of diabetes where you are prone to passing out with no warning. Mental illness, including clinical depression, can also be a factor here, although so far nobody has mentioned PTSD.

And lastly, after reading elsewhere about the horrendous club fees in USA, let me just add that it costs us £130.00 per year for single membership [£110 if you are an old f*rt AND a Veteran as well, and have been there for more than five years], and £180 for family membership for up to four family members. For that, we can shoot on our outdoor every day of the week between certain hours – obviously, it gets dark even here in the northern latitudes, and up to four times a week in our separate indoor range, located in a town about three miles from our outdoor ranges.

You can see the outdoor ranges on Youtube – tac's guns. Oundle Rifle & Pistol Club is the name, folks.
 
Last Edited:
tac,

Fantastic post.

Let me add something: I don't socialize any longer due to the fact that when I speak it's terribly painful.

Yes, I've been to specialists and they're only helpful to the degree of telling me it's not cancer or some other horror...

So, when I go to my range, I shoot by myself.

By nature, I'm very gregarious so being forced into being a loner is additionally painful, but my condition doesn't rend me depressed.

I've simply adapted.

So, not all loners are so by choice...
 
tac,

Fantastic post.

Let me add something: I don't socialize any longer due to the fact that when I speak it's terribly painful.

Yes, I've been to specialists and they're only helpful to the degree of telling me it's not cancer or some other horror...

So, when I go to my range, I shoot by myself.

By nature, I'm very gregarious so being forced into being a loner is additionally painful, but my condition doesn't rend me depressed.

I've simply adapted.

So, not all loners are so by choice...

Understooded. Lucky for us here, we don't have anybody in your predicament, but if we were told of an ongoing medical condition like yours, you'd be overwhelmed with help, if needed. Us shooters are like that, no matter where we live. We have four club members who get around in wheelchairs - if they need any kind of assistance, we all know each other well enough to ax for it.

You take care now.
 
No war between the sexs here. Just pretty much the same wars as wars within the sexes. Glocks are great vs Glocks are ugly and their grip angle is wrong. Capacity, capacity, capacity vs, hey, get a real gun, like a SW 686 or 629, a fine old revolver. And there's always the good old ".45acp is outmoded vs. 9mm is wimpy and ineffective." And that's just handguns.
If it fits your hand and hits where you're aiming it....
 
WARNING LONG POST! READ AT YOUR PERIL, KINDA.....

'kaaaaaaaay. I live here and it is definitely NOT like that at all. There is no such animal as a 'firearms licensing course', as firearms are not licensed. You have a 'certificate' that certifies that you are a suitable person to be allowed to acquire and possess a firearm [or, in my case, nineteen of 'em].

At the risk of becoming a PITA, here is the skinny on the whole deal here on mainland GB - Northern Ireland is slightly different, as they count ALL airguns as firearms and they are allowed to have modern cartridge-firing handguns that look just like those in your LGS.

Take a deep breath, pour yourself a large coffee - or beverage of your choice, and read on...................

This post does not include much detail about game shooting [deer, feral hogs, feral goats], pest control [professional or amateur] or shot-gunning of any kind. These are all different here in UK, and require a different approach to authorising. So, although they might be mentioned in passing, there is no detail. Suffice it to say that there is NO handgun hunting in the UK, and NO black powder mammalian hunting either. NO bow-hunting, or crossbow hunting.

I'd be grateful if this could make this a sticky, as it would help me out from having to dig it up and post if for our newcomers who might be interested to know what goes on over here, in our 2500+ gun clubs of all kinds.

Here goes - please ask questions, but any attempt at flaming will be met with silence from this end, 'kay? It might be unpalatable to anybody raised in the USA, but here it is all the LAW and not negotiable. You comply, or you take up frog-stretching or tree-fondling instead.

Here in UK[except Northern Ireland] , if you go along with a pal to his gun club as a guest [usually twelve times a year, for members to show their spousal units and pals/colleagues what they get up to], and think to yourself, WOW!!! I could get interested in THAT for sure!

Sooooooooooooooooooooooooo,

1. You join a gun-club that does the kind of shooting that you think will appeal to you. Apart from a few commercial ranges - not open to the general public who are not part of the firearms industry - and a VERY few private individuals who have their own land and facilities, there are NO ranges that do not have gun-clubs, and NO gun-clubs that do not have ranges. No matter what kind of range it is, EVERY range in the country is an official government-sanctioned range, and EVERY gun-club is part of the National Rifle Association or National Small-bore Rifle Association. So every member of every gun-club right from the start is also a member of either or both of these two national associations, by association. That's the insurance thing settled, although you can, of course, take out private insurance with the British Association of Conservation and shooting [BASC] as well. BASC are good to have on your side when the inevitable conflict of interests occurs - they have their own team of lawyers.

2. You then serve a three-month/six probationary period, during which you learn all about shooting lots of different guns and disciplines simply by getting to shoot lots of different guns and taking part in different shooting disciplines. Just about anything you care to mention happens here in UK, except for what I call 'proper' handgun shooting with a modern-style handgun that still LOOKS like a handgun – more of that later. Most noobs get a mite bewildered by the club members offering them lots of different guns to shoot [I have nineteen, so it can take a while], and most, at first, ask if they can pay for the ammunition. The answer to tosh like this is simple - when YOU are a full member, YOU let a noob shoot your gun, and pass it all on along, right? You CAN buy ammunition at the club, in four or five calibres, but you cannot take it away with you. THAT, friends, is a criminal offence. You can, if you wish, take empties away for future use for reloading when you get your Firearms Certificate [FAC or 'ticket']. Here in UK, and in the much of the rest of the world, an empty cartridge case is a piece of brass with a hole in one end, and not any kind of live round – unless, of course, you live in Washington DC or the Republic of Ireland. As a noob without any form of gun-owning documentation, the only guns you cannot shoot on a club range are shotguns that shoot more than three rounds, or any shotgun firing slugs, or any kind of long-barrelled handgun of the kind permitted on mainland UK. Northern Ireland does NOT subscribe to this, BTW, and you can shoot anything that another club member puts in your hand. This sad stricture is a Home Office thing, and applies to EVERYBODY on mainland GB, not just noobies/probies.

3. During this time, you are, of course, being watched like a hawk for anything odd that might give people cause for concern about your suitability to own firearms of any kind. Standing in a corner muttering to people that only you can see is a sure-fire way of NOT getting any kind of gun certificate. Notice that it is called 'certificate' and not a license. Lots of folks get confungled about that.

A certificate CERTIFIES that you are deemed to be suitable person to be allowed to acquire and possess a firearm that would otherwise be illegal to do so.

A license LICENSES you to do something that you would otherwise be unable to do legally without the benefit of that document.

Clear?

No?

Don't worry, very few of us here can tell the difference either.

So, back to the guy muttering in the corner. Many of us shooters are a mite odd, but just not THAT odd. And anyhow, shooting is a social thing - people who do it like to talk to other people about it. This is called 'instinctive teaching' or, more correctly, 'bragging'. If you don't like to talk to people, then you are most likely not a suitable candidate for any kind of shooting sport. Michael Ryan, the Hungerford mass-murderer, wasn't a member of a gun club, and didn't like people much, as he later proved by killing sixteen of them and wounding another fifteen for life. Here in yUK we like to think that the way that the FAC application form is now laid out [after a massive revision of the terms of reference and the conditions demanded in it], render this kind of appalling act of violence a lot less likely.

4. During the probationary period, you are tested, at least twice, on safety and safe handling and general knowledge on the firearms use scene.

5. At the end of the three/six months, the secretary tells you that you have done just fine [after the usual committee meeting about prospective new members], and to go ahead and fill out your application for your FAC. This can be found online - it's called an FAC1 if you want to look for yourself. In this application, you get to ask for permission to 'acquire and possess' the guns that you think that you would like to shoot.

So, your first application will be multiple firearms of the rifled-barrel type - usually a .22 rimfire rifle or carbine, a .223 centre-fire rifle or carbine, maybe a .308Win for target work, maybe a 38/357 or .44/44 underlever rifle or carbine for the sheer fun of it, or any kind of black powder firearm or rifle, carbine or handgun [of the kind permitted on mainland UK]. You also ask for as much ammunition for each gun that you think that you will need at any one time. You provide two referees who have known you for at least two years - NOT a serving police officer, or official of the club or any person with a police record. You also have to give permission for the licensing authority to ASK your GP if you are epileptic or a habitual user of hallucinogenic powders or liquids, if they feel that it's necessary. Some county authorities are requesting a letter from your doctor - one of our national associations, BASC [look it up] is fighting this imposition into our privacy. Alcoholism IS a problem, if you are a noted or documented sot, as is any record of violence, threat of violence or the threat of or use of threatening behaviour. Having such a record will usually stop your application dead in the water. Note that you will have made a 'Declaration' to the fact that you are NOT a habitual drug-userv of illegal substances, or epileptic, nor in the habit of taking mind-altering meds etc, in the body of the FAC application form. Lying about this will get you 3 - 5 years pokey, as the application form is, in UK legal terms, a 'sworn document', and you will be rightly guilty of attempting to obtain a firearm/firearms by deception. Your FAC application, BTW, costs ATM £80, and is non-returnable IF, in the unlikely event, you are refused a FAC. BTW, implicit in the FAC is the fact that having been granted it in the first place, that you can reload your own ammunition, up to the legal amount you are permitted to possess for each calibre. No course is necessary for this, although the UK NRA DO run such a useful little course as a money-spinner. Looking at the the young lady who runs it is well-worth the fee, so I'm told.

6. You buy and fit a suitable gun-safe – usually made right here by Bratton who know a thing or two about such furniture. As such it conforms to the British Standards Institute requirements for domestic and professional security furniture. Nothing else than a made-for purpose gun-safe is permitted, not even, as I saw once, a refrigerator converted into a 'gun-safe' that had been painted a natty shade of Rustoleum silvery blue.

Note that the fitting of a domestic alarm is NOT a compulsory requirement, until you have around 12 or 16 Section 1 [Rifled] firearms. I live in an outlying village, so it makes sense to have at least one [I have two]. Here in UK it makes not the slightest difference in the level of police response, no matter how many and of what kinds your alarms. If you get burglarised then the police will come around the next morning, maybe flap a few bits of paper around - even take a photograph or two for the station album to show willing, give you a crime number and b&gger off. You are unlikely ever to see them or hear from the again unless your guns were stolen, in which case they get a trifle concerned, make a note of your FAC details and circulate a list of your guns around the nation.

Given the extreme unlikelihood of any self-respecting crook holding up a corner store with your 1862 Snider or F-Class target rifle and getting caught in the act, that is the last you'll ever hear of it.

When I asked if any enhanced level of response in terms of rapidity of attendance might accrue from having a monitored alarm system fitted, one wag in uniform said that tearing round to the location with 'blues and twos' alight in an immediate response to 'attend the scene of the crime' was unlikely in the extreme, since the miscreants were, at that very moment, armed, albeit with MY guns. Suffice it to say that where I live, the Chief Constable supports the idea of people having monitored alarms, in spite of the fact that the Home Office guidelines make absolutely NO mention of the necessity for fitting even a basic system. The words say ' secure accommodation', so if you have seen any crime-buster TV programmes where the boys in blue have been trying to gain access to some scumbag's dreary little domestic unit on a sh&tty estate in Buttwipeville-on-Glum, you'll have seen with your own eyes just how hard it is to gain any kind of access to a house fitted with even the most basic modern double-glazing uPVC doors and windows, let alone do it surrepticiously.

We digress.

Back to the process.......About three weeks after you submitted your application, the representative of the county police Firearms and Explosives Licensing Department, a guy called the Firearms Enquiries Officer [a civilian] comes around for coffee and biscuits/cookies, finds that you are what you say you are, checks out your safe, mentally agrees with your referees, shakes your hand and bids you good day. In our club there are five such people - invariably shooters of all kinds themselves, widely experienced in most, if not all aspects of the shooting sports, they are usually retirees from the police or military or conservation, in one case, all three.

7. Your FAC plops into your mail box a couple of weeks later, and off you go to the gun dealer to spend all your money on guns, and, if you want to give it a try, any and all reloading gear to get you started making your own ammunition, like 90% of all other shooters do here.

8. After a while, you give another discipline a try and find that it takes your interest, so you apply for a variation to your FAC for another firearm of the type you wish to shoot. It costs atm £40 to do this, but if you wait until renewal time, it's free. Same if you wish to swap out same calibre guns on a one-for-one basis.

9. Your FAC lasts five years and cost £80 to renew. Renewing it does not require you to justify your reasons all over again - you've already done that over the previous five years, and, in any case, anything aberrant that might cause concern has been notified to the licensing authority by the club secretary...it is not being a snitch, it is his or her legal duty to do so as part of the Home Office guidelines he or she has agreed to abide by on taking on the duty.

Any infringement of range safety that shows that you are acting irresponsibly where live firearms are concerned is, of course, a matter for everybody around you, and whereas a simple and thoughtless action such as touching your gun while folks are forward of the firing point will earn you a loud ticking off, pointing it at anybody with obvious malice will get you kicked out of the club instantly and permanently. The club secretary is obliged to inform the licensing authority without delay, and you WILL lose your FAC as a result. No club membership = no 'good reason' to own any target firearm, since that is THE condition under which you are able to acquire and possess a firearm in the fust place. Since the inception of the UK's HOLMES [yup, true], that information may have been passed to all 51 mainland county licensing departments and the PSNI, and you'll have to take up knitting.

As with most things, the more you do, the more you learn, and you improve as you get more familiar with your guns. There are always club coaches, like me, an NRA coach and former British Disabled Shooting Association instructor, to help and advise, and the opportunity for you to put something back into the club by doing an RCO course, like almost 30% of our 400+ membership has already done.

I've been asked by an interested person if all this personal instruction/mentoring and so on costs the probie anything extra to his or her initial joining fee.

'course not. Everybody HAS to learn initially and safety is of paramount importance where firearms are concerned. It stands to reason that somebody who is safe and sure in his or her handling of guns is, uh, safe and sure...experience comes with confident handling of the firearm, and that comes with use and 'doing it' under the watchful eyeball of the person alongside you on the firing line.

The only things that cost are extra-mural courses like those run by the NRA at Bisley, and the RCO qualification course that so many of our club have successfully completed. The NRA black powder RCO course is at your expense, but it's a hoot, and well-worth the time and effort these days with so many shooters turning to BP firearms because of the sheer fascination of the things. It's also the only way that most folks on mainland UK are EVER going to hold a full-sized big-bore revolver that still looks like a big-bore revolver. It is usual to save up the number of RCO course applicants to around ten or so, and get the peripatetic NRA RCO course instructor to come to us - cheaper all round, too. We have also a number of club members who are instructors for the British Deer Society qualifications, at all three levels of expertise, but that's really outside the remit of this post, which is primarily concerned with the target-shooting aspect of shooting sports.

I've ignored Practical Shotgun so far. A fast-growing branch of the shooting sports, it requires a Section 1 [Rifled] firearm FAC, even though the shotgun is still a smoothbore, and is VERY exclusive. If you are NOT the certificate-holder, then you can't shoot it to try it out - simples. Same goes for long-barrelled handguns. Revolvers are in any calibre, as they are manually-operated, but semi-autos are, well, semi-autos, and only available in .22LR.

Hope this is useful.

As a matter of interest, one well-respected member of another forum wrote me off-post, saying -
'But I disagree that one person has the authority to kick a person out. (Secretary) The reason could simply be a personality conflict. Maybe I did not understand the total process to remove people. Maybe it is from reports by more than one member and then action by the Secretary of the Club? That would make perfect sense.'

Apart from the very obvious mention of a 'personality conflict], something I've never encountered in ANY of the gun clubs of which I've been a member, ALL of us on the range at any time with the probie are going to be VERY aware of his or deportment around live firearms. It will be perfectly obvious, VERY early on, whether or not the person is going to be a safe pair of hands to own a gun of any kind. We can ALL talk to the club secretary, after all, at one time or other many of us have actually BEEN the club secretary. At any time there are likely to be a 50/50 split of qualified RCOs/shooters on the line. If the person displays any obvious quirks, as, indeed, one such candidate for membership did a few years back, he or she will just be advised that perhaps shooting is not for them, and earlier rather than later. This particular person came and would arrive and stand very quietly behind the line, but did not engage in conversation with anybody, although he responded when spoken to. He never offered an opinion on anything, nor did he ever engage with anybody else, except when shooting a club gun. He did it all competently, but without any obvious enjoyment, and then left without speaking, saying goodbye or KMA. He obviously suffered from some kind of social inadequacy and in THIS country, after the few mass shootings had taught us the hard way, we don't like such loners to have legal access to guns. It's best to nip it in the bud rather than say later at County Crown Coroner's court that yes, we knew he was a total dwong and wholly unsuited to owning anything more lethal than a spoon, but.......................

The decision was taken by the committee, based on the recommendations of the club secretary who is, of course, an active participant on the shooting line, just like any other club member. So WE tell him/her of our misgivings, he/she listens to us and makes his or her own mind up, and takes it to the committee who then say yea or nay. The county police HQ Firearms & Explosives Licensing Department are informed of the decision of the club committee, and the probie is asked, gently, to leave the club. There is, of course, nothing to prevent him or her from shooting an air rifle or pistol in a club that caters for that kind of shooting, or from joining an Airsoft group, or even a re-enactment group, so long a no live firearm is involved. But NOT a Section 1 [rifled] firearm or even a shotgun. Remember that part of the application involves the declaration that you are not on any kind of meds for any mind-variant condition, or epilepsy, or the kind of diabetes where you are prone to passing out with no warning. Mental illness, including clinical depression, can also be a factor here, although so far nobody has mentioned PTSD.

And lastly, after reading elsewhere about the horrendous club fees in USA, let me just add that it costs us £130.00 per year for single membership [£110 if you are an old f*rt AND a Veteran as well, and have been there for more than five years], and £180 for family membership for up to four family members. For that, we can shoot on our outdoor every day of the week between certain hours – obviously, it gets dark even here in the northern latitudes, and up to four times a week in our separate indoor range, located in a town about three miles from our outdoor ranges.

You can see the outdoor ranges on Youtube – tac's guns. Oundle Rifle & Pistol Club is the name, folks.
Whoa ... thank you very much for this reply, which I will put on my reading list, and get around to sometime next week.
 
No. When I lived in New York and California, I was still a Texan. Can't get that stuff out of your blood.
Just work honestly for a living and obey the local laws and customs, and who's going to complain?

Okay, if ten million Texans moved to the UK, they might not be so comfortable with it, but just one or two,
they can tolerate. They're pretty tolerant now. The values here are pretty much the same as in the US.
 

Upcoming Events

Tillamook Gun & Knife Show
Tillamook, OR
"The Original" Kalispell Gun Show
Kalispell, MT
Teen Rifle 1 Class
Springfield, OR
Kids Firearm Safety 2 Class
Springfield, OR

New Resource Reviews

New Classified Ads

Back Top