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The way it's put together, with screws, glue, and plastic, doesn't inspire confidence.
and if yours is a Gen 1 you might want to research the 'fix' for the epoxied in barrel before it loosens up.

I didn't get that far with mine. After one complete tear down and reassembly it went up for sale.

Regardless still a great design and would have been much better if built with a little more steel & alloy as opposed to plastic and a little larger over all.
 
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The only thing that I can see that may put Glock "behind the curve " would be not having a direct answer to the p365. So what? That gun, like so many other, is not for everyone. Great gun but will not replace my g26! Considering that Glock was THE pioneer in the polymer movement, and that virtually every other polymer pistol seems to be a Glock wannabe(just my opinion), and has stayed true to their philosophy of simplicity and except reliability, not to mention their legion of "fan boys", I'd say they were still pretty much riding high on that curve. Tried to locate a g19 lately?

Actually the HK VP70 was the pioneer of polymer pistols at least a decade before glock.much of the dependability and reliability is derived from expired Browning patents.

If I'm not mistaken the vp70 was a machine pistol that went out of production after about 10 yrs. Didn't have nearly the impact on the market as Glock. 30 some odd yrs later and Glock is still one of the best sellers world wide. Seems the old "one trick pony" is still king .
If it ain't broke don't fix it.
Ok, hijacked op's thread far too much. Bivy53 out.

While the VP70 did come out prior to the Glock, it was not the first and I'd say the Glock did indeed "pioneer in the polymer movement" by proving it and making it mainstream, otherwise one could go back to 1959 and the Remington Nylon 66 or 1963 and the TKB-023, which was actually the first polymer pistol.
World's First Polymer Pistol was a Makarov!? -
 
I would take rock solid reliability of innovation any day. It's great to innovate, it gives other manufacturers competition and pushes them to do the same.

EXCEPT, the other manufacturers know KT isn't any kind of competition.
 
Kel-Tec is innovative, I'll give them that much.

Ditto. In an era in which every manufacturer is, more or less, cranking out the same old tired design, at least they're trying to innovate. To bad the quality is often beyond crap. :eek:

I would take rock solid reliability of innovation any day. It's great to innovate, it gives other manufacturers competition and pushes them to do the same.

EXCEPT, the other manufacturers know KT isn't any kind of competition.

^. Indeed.
 
While the VP70 did come out prior to the Glock, it was not the first and I'd say the Glock did indeed "pioneer in the polymer movement" by proving it and making it mainstream, otherwise one could go back to 1959 and the Remington Nylon 66 or 1963 and the TKB-023, which was actually the first polymer pistol.
World's First Polymer Pistol was a Makarov!? -
The vp 70 was produced from 1970 through 1989, sold around the world, was unique in function and design, Glock was a pioneer in nothing, lifted most, if not all, of his design from browning. The nylon 66 was junk with a metal receiver by the way, the tkb 23 was a failed experiment.
 
The vp 70 was produced from 1970 through 1989, sold around the world, was unique in function and design, Glock was a pioneer in nothing, lifted most, if not all, of his design from browning. The nylon 66 was junk with a metal receiver by the way, the tkb 23 was a failed experiment.

Glock borrowed some basic mechanics (so have others) from Browning but saying the design was "most, if not all" browning is exaggerating just a wee bit.
 
I have tried to like Keltecs, but they just felt like plastic upon plastic.

Also, dad had a nylon 66 that we shot a bunch when growing up. We never had problems with it. Look how many rifles copy that one. Everything was steel except the stock. A fun accurate. 22.

Some history. NylonRifles.com » The Most Famous Nylon 66

Good marketing also included some sort of endurance test or other sensational use for the firearm. Remington decided that the Nylon 66 was worthy of world record attempt. One of the most famous old school trick shooters Adolf (Ad) Topperwein, set a world record in 1907 by shooting 75,050 woods blocks thrown into the air with only 9 misses. Remington would get one of their field representatives to try and break the record.

Tom Frye
In October of 1959 in Reno Nevada, Tom Frye, a professional and championship skeet and trap shooter for Remington, set out to surpass fry4.jpg Topperwein's world record. Frye used three Nylon 66 rifles and shot for 13 straight days, 8 hours a day at a pace of about 1,000 shots per hour . When it was all over he had only missed 6 times out of 100,010 for a new record of 100,004 two and a half inch square wood blocks. The rifles had only been cleaned three times in the 13 days. Interestingly, Remington put one of the wood blocks from the record into each of the boxes of the newly shipped rifles. I would guess those would be the holy grail for Nylon rifle collectors if one could be found and verified.
 
and if yours is a Gen 1 you might want to research the 'fix' for the epoxied in barrel before it loosens up.

I didn't get that far with mine. After one complete tear down and reassembly it went up for sale.

Regardless still a great design and would have been much better if built with a little more steel & alloy as opposed to plastic and a little larger over all.
It was for a long time. It was made with the same alloy's most AR's are made of. Problem was what this did with cost. At the time they were making the Sub9 and Sub40 they ran the same as a base AR did in those days. They did not sell well. So when they redesigned them it made the price go from around $750 to around $250. After that they were never able to make as many as sold. They were always hard to find unless you bought them from the auctions. Of course any time there is a panic going on there were even harder to lay hands on. During the great panic before Trump won the 9mm version started selling at close to 1K. The .40 version close to $800. Only reason I resisted the temptation to sell one of mine at that time was the PCC market was so limited then and it was such a hassle to find the 2 I had at "normal price". Even after the GenII came out and the market tanked these were still something that was harder to come by at local shops. Normal price now is low $400's and they still can not make them as fast as they sell. Amazingly many still want a 1K gun for that price and seem disappointed when they don't get one <shrug>
For those who still have a Gen I the Co may be still offering the upgrade they started over a year ago. There were for $150 putting the old serial # with a modification to show it was a re do, on a Gen II and sending it to the owner. They do not advertise it, you had to call them. I thought about it but decided not to bother. Figure if I finally wear the one I have left out will just buy a new Gen II assuming they are still sold by then. In the mean time these still sell faster than they can build them because of the price point. For those who want "better" there is LOT's of choices but, they of course do not sell for $400.
 
Mine is a Gen2, .40S&W Glock mag. I think I paid $399 for it. At first it had a tendency to jam, til I polished the feed ramp, chamfered the chamber edge, or something (I forget). Since then it's been completely reliable and reasonably accurate. Getting it sighted in was a challenge, what with having to loosen the front sight, move it ever so slightly, and try to tighten it without it moving again (repeatedly).

I know people say there are better PCCs out there, but I chose this one specifically for the one thing that none of the others have: the ability to quickly and easily fold into a tiny package. Other than that, I'm just not terribly interested in a PCC. I do like the looks of the Ruger; it's probably a much better gun for the money, from what I've heard. I'd probably be a little interested in one, if I had money to burn right now. I'm sure it's much more ergonomic and fun as a range gun, but still not really what I'm looking for.

I fully understand the limitations of the KelTec. I was never expecting a $1k gun. All I'm saying is that if someone else would make a similar gun that folds up so compact, but make it more like a real firearm and improve on a few of the KelTec's deficiencies, I think there would be a market for double the price. I just like the fact that it will easily fit in a suitcase or a backpack so easily. If anyone knows of any other gun that folds into such an easy, compact package, please let me know.
 
By the way, I know that not everyone is nearly as tolerant of the Sub-2000's deficiencies as I am. I let a friend shoot it at the range a while back. He tried and tried to get his face down to see through the sights. I tried and tried to explain just how you have to hold it. I even demonstrated- bang, bang, bang- ding, ding, ding- repeatedly smacking the 100 yard gong quickly and easily.

He gave up in disgust and proclaimed it to be unusable junk, even though he'd just seen me use it. I was a little offended for a minute, but to each their own. He did politely thank me for letting him try it, as he had been thinking about getting one himself and now he knew it wasn't for him. He simply couldn't handle the terrible ergonomics. Next time I'll have to let him try out an underfolding AKM. Talk about terrible ergonomics!
 
Mine is a Gen2, .40S&W Glock mag. I think I paid $399 for it. At first it had a tendency to jam, til I polished the feed ramp, chamfered the chamber edge, or something (I forget). Since then it's been completely reliable and reasonably accurate. Getting it sighted in was a challenge, what with having to loosen the front sight, move it ever so slightly, and try to tighten it without it moving again (repeatedly).

I know people say there are better PCCs out there, but I chose this one specifically for the one thing that none of the others have: the ability to quickly and easily fold into a tiny package. Other than that, I'm just not terribly interested in a PCC. I do like the looks of the Ruger; it's probably a much better gun for the money, from what I've heard. I'd probably be a little interested in one, if I had money to burn right now. I'm sure it's much more ergonomic and fun as a range gun, but still not really what I'm looking for.

I fully understand the limitations of the KelTec. I was never expecting a $1k gun. All I'm saying is that if someone else would make a similar gun that folds up so compact, but make it more like a real firearm and improve on a few of the KelTec's deficiencies, I think there would be a market for double the price. I just like the fact that it will easily fit in a suitcase or a backpack so easily. If anyone knows of any other gun that folds into such an easy, compact package, please let me know.

With the PCC market now one like the way they used to make them "may" sell. Who knows. Things are very up in the air right now so who knows if someone wants to spend the HUGE capitol it takes to tool up for a new one.
As for the KT's mine are about 20 years old so don't know if things have changed. Both of the S2K's when I got them were both dirty (I guess from test firing)and rough as a corn cob. Both of them would not even make it through one mag at first. After a couple boxes of ammo things got better. Then took them down to clean and lube and could see parts wearing in. After that there was no problems again unless I tried after market mags instead of Glock mags. Tried a few after market sticks in the 9mm one pictured and none worked 100%. I ended up giving them away to a member here.
Now as for better? Here is a great example. This is an AR in 9mm. It's shorter folded but it of course is an 8" tube. You can make these in any tube length you wish of course. It's as you can see wider when folded. A lot of that is the SB4 brace. If you put one of the blade type braces it would be much thinner but also much less comfortable to shoot. One thing I long loved about my S2K is I could carry it in a laptop case. With the laptop in there. The AR I can carry in the same case. Little harder to keep the gun and PC both.
The AR is a FAR better gun even as is. It's also able to be made as nice as I want. VERY comfortable to shoot. The KT is not at all comfortable to shoot even in 9mm.
Price? The AR as pictured is quite a bit more, and sky is the limit to price you can do. One other upside to the AR is if you wish you can make one as a Casper gun, like this one is. Another huge advantage to the AR is caliber. The KT's are currently made in 2. The AR you can have in I lost track of how many. Again though you will be hard pressed to get the AR anywhere close to the price.

PCC1.png PCC-2.png
 
Jumping away from PCC an Kel-tecs.

I just wanna say while these are great guns already, that i am about to discuss as there isn't a thread on it already.

Beretta PX4 storm models, why wasn't it made with striker fire in mind? you could delete the frame safety and keep the sleek profile and standardize a trigger pull to about the 5-6lbs mark like most. I mean P30 became VP9 and the SIG P250 went to P320. Edit to add, I am already aware of the APX for beretta but I mean the PX4 would have been dope in striker fire, heck even the classic M9!

I am just imagining some already popular hammer fired guns just converted to Striker fired mechanisms for giving the market more options/preference. I don't have a thing against hammer fired pistols I am just saying why not take great already established lines and convert them while continuing to make both?.
 
I can definitely see where an AR PCC has advantages, and I have no doubt that they are a lot easier to shoot, due to better ergonomics, but for me personally, the KelTec has one thing that I like. It's an actual rifle that can practically fit in your wallet. For some reason that just appeals to me in a practical way.

The practical side being you could take it with you about anywhere you ever wanted/needed to. The huge downside to that, though, is that you wouldn't want to actually rely on it if you had to. So there's the catch. It's a range toy with terrible ergonomics. For some reason I still like it. :)
 
I've owned and/or shot a couple different Gen 2's. For what they are, what they're designed to be, and for the price, I think they are a great concept. I've never experienced a failure with any of them.
 
I can definitely see where an AR PCC has advantages, and I have no doubt that they are a lot easier to shoot, due to better ergonomics, but for me personally, the KelTec has one thing that I like. It's an actual rifle that can practically fit in your wallet. For some reason that just appeals to me in a practical way.

The practical side being you could take it with you about anywhere you ever wanted/needed to. The huge downside to that, though, is that you wouldn't want to actually rely on it if you had to. So there's the catch. It's a range toy with terrible ergonomics. For some reason I still like it. :)
I do still regularly rely on my S2k as it's never failed after break in. Its long been carried into places like jobs with me in a laptop case. No one ever gives a second glance, yet it's there ready if needed. Since I have had it around a couple decades now no idea how much ammo it's eaten up. Suspect the way it's made it will wear out some day. If it does it will be replaced again if still made. The price point makes it something that is often traveled with since if it got stolen I would not cry nearly as much as one that cost several times as much to replace. I would certainly not take it into battle but I'm way too old for that anyway. For around the home protection? I have no problem at all with depending on it. It's kept loaded with pricey ammo, that Speer +P GDHP. Stuff turns out the same performance as a .357 in a 4inch tube. That's why it wears that light / laser combo. In case needed at night. The sights are nothing if not crude but even my old eyes can put a happy stick into an 8" target at 50'ft all day with mine. So for around the home the thing would be devastating if some drug zombie came crashing in.
 

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