Great design, poor execution

Messages
2,158
Reactions
5,095
Ever admire the design/style of something, but wish it was produced by a quality manufacturer? I'm talking about a KelTec Sub2000, but I'm sure there are plenty of others out there.

I've had this gun for a couple years. I actually really like it. I love how it folds into this tiny little package that you could take with you camping, hiking, etc.. It's a lot of fun to shoot. Once I got the sights aligned, it's reasonably accurate (for what it is).

That said, the ergonomics are terrible, the sights are terrible, and the trigger is absolutely horrendous. The way it's put together, with screws, glue, and plastic, doesn't inspire confidence. I wish Glock or someone would steal the design and start making them. As much as I like it, it's really just a range toy. I wouldn't want to ever have to rely on it or anything.

I think what bothers me the most is the horrible trigger. The only thing I can compare it to is the double-action pull on a Nagant revolver, only worse. I've been reading a little about ways to improve it a little. One way is with a $140 "trigger kit", but I'd really rather not spend that much on something like this. Anyone here ever worked on one of these? Taking it apart looks like it could be challenging.
 
Messages
95
Reactions
135
Everything kel tec.
The rdb was my favorite firearm of all time. It was sleek, smooth, light, and accurate. But poor quality control. Had to settle for an x95 which I love, but I miss my rdb. It broke twice and I won't own an unreliable weapon.
 

Tarawa86

Messages
838
Reactions
2,501
Anything by dodge, really. For firearms: the Remington 740.

Edit: I'll accept that the BAR MK 3 DBM is basically what I'm thinking of in terms of an (almost) well executed Remington 740/7400. Still too expensive, and the charging handle assembly still sucks.
Browning BAR MK 3 DBM Wood - 031065218.jpg
 
Last edited:

Alexx1401

Messages
10,202
Reactions
24,277
I have LONG wondered why Glock did not get into the PCC market. Look how many of them use Glock mags. I still have a 1st gen S2K that I love for what it is. Cost me $300 and for that money you can only expect so much. Red Lion for one makes some stuff to make the S2K FAR better but, by the time you do you can easily double the price on one. If you want to spend that kind of money now days you can buy an AR pistol in the caliber of your choice if you do not want just 9mm or .40. Put a LawTac folder on it, and of course any trigger you want, sights you want. Now of course this will not cost the same $400 the new S2K's cost but you do get what you pay for. Many seem to want the KT to be a 1K gun for the $400 price tag. That is just not going to happen.
 
Messages
458
Reactions
694
I own or have owned no less than 7 different Keltec products over the years. Had a pretty good idea what I was getting with each one. Every one had/has a horrible trigger with ergo’s to match. Except for the sub2000. I love mine. Only thing wrong with the trigger on mine is it’s plastic and a little heavy. Not terrible. And adding 1/4” to the rear sight would fix the ergos. I can fix all that for <$100. But, and it’s a big but, I have never had a failure, breakage, or stoppage of any kind. Yep, they’re cheap and ugly, feel terrible in your hand, but ALL of mine have worked every time. And they have been the inspiration for many of the latest trends in the industry. If you like to tinker you can usually make a decent shooter out of them. If not, buy a Glock or Sig and be done.
My suggestion would be sell the sub 2000 to someone who appreciates the design, and go buy a different pcc.
 
I can't say I'm surprised by the Keltec. It is so often what they do.

In the "great idea, terrible execution" department, I've been heart-broken by the Marlin Camp-45. Light, handy carbine in .45ACP, made by Marlin back in the day, feeds from 1911 magazines, and has a traditional stock. But it is a pile. :(
 

MechaNik

Messages
1,221
Reactions
2,758
  • National Rifle Association
  • Oregon Firearms Federation
  • Second Amendment Foundation
  • Gun Owners of America
I have LONG wondered why Glock did not get into the PCC market. Look how many of them use Glock mags. I still have a 1st gen S2K that I love for what it is. Cost me $300 and for that money you can only expect so much. Red Lion for one makes some stuff to make the S2K FAR better but, by the time you do you can easily double the price on one. If you want to spend that kind of money now days you can buy an AR pistol in the caliber of your choice if you do not want just 9mm or .40. Put a LawTac folder on it, and of course any trigger you want, sights you want. Now of course this will not cost the same $400 the new S2K's cost but you do get what you pay for. Many seem to want the KT to be a 1K gun for the $400 price tag. That is just not going to happen.
I would say Glock is so far behind the curve they're about to be lapped. BUT they do produce their single product on several sizes that generally work pretty darn well and they're kinda like a religion (I have 9, personally). And since they only do that one thing, making a carbine would probably be a mechanical nightmare and share almost no parts with all their other models which is part of their appeal. Heck, if I had a restaurant that only sold corn on the cob while making me a millionaire, I wouldn't care what the public wanted. You might get a dab of butter or some salt but that's as far as I'd care to stay from my winning formula
 
Last edited:

Alexx1401

Messages
10,202
Reactions
24,277
I can't say I'm surprised by the Keltec. It is so often what they do.

In the "great idea, terrible execution" department, I've been heart-broken by the Marlin Camp-45. Light, handy carbine in .45ACP, made by Marlin back in the day, feeds from 1911 magazines, and has a traditional stock. But it is a pile. :(
Yep as so often happens they make something very low end, ie cheap. People love them but want them to be far better. When we moved to the other side of the county I bought a new Kia. 13K for new car. Gets low 40's MPG. So works great. Now does it feel and act like a Lexus? No, I did not pay for a Lexus.
In the PCC market now the AR is one of the best ways to go. They make some DAMN nice ones now. Of course you do not get one for the price of a KT. ;)
 

Alexx1401

Messages
10,202
Reactions
24,277
I would say Glock is so far behind the curve they're about to be lapped. BUT they do produce their single product on several sizes that generally work pretty darn well and they're kinda like a religion (I have 9, personally). And since they only do that one thing, making a carbine would probably be a mechanical nightmare and share almost no parts with all their other models which is part of their appeal. Heck, if I had a restaurant that only sold clerk on the cob while making me a millionaire, I wouldn't care what the public wanted. You might get a dab of butter or some salt but that's as far as I'd care to stay from my winning formula
Got to give them that. They have a hell of a large market share for what they make so it makes sense they are not hurting for business.
 

Tarawa86

Messages
838
Reactions
2,501
BUT they do produce their single product on several sizes that generally work pretty darn well
I recently picked up a gen 5 g17. I've never liked the way glocks felt in my hand, and that somewhat includes the one I just bought. Oddly though, with the gen 5 model that awkward feeling disappears once I start firing and I'm surprised by how much it's grown on me.
 
Messages
458
Reactions
694
The only thing that I can see that may put Glock “behind the curve “ would be not having a direct answer to the p365. So what? That gun, like so many other, is not for everyone. Great gun but will not replace my g26! Considering that Glock was THE pioneer in the polymer movement, and that virtually every other polymer pistol seems to be a Glock wannabe(just my opinion), and has stayed true to their philosophy of simplicity and except reliability, not to mention their legion of “fan boys”, I’d say they were still pretty much riding high on that curve. Tried to locate a g19 lately?
 
OP
CLT65
Messages
2,158
Reactions
5,095
My suggestion would be sell the sub 2000 to someone who appreciates the design, and go buy a different pcc.
No, no, no. What I like about it is the design. The thing I like most about it is that it folds into a tiny little package, something that no other PCC does.
Maybe I just got one with a bad trigger, because it's beyond horrible. It's spongy and long, as crisp as bending plastic, must be at least 10. Just about the time you think something's broken or jammed, it finally goes off. I still enjoy it, not planning on getting rid of it. It's fun to shoot, and I'll still be happy with it if I figure out how to do something with the trigger. (Edit- just figured out a way to measure, it's more like 8 lbs. I guess it's just the super-spongy part that bugs me.)

Honestly (and some of you all might make fun of me for this), my favorite PCC is my old WWII M1 Carbine. It's the only other "PCC" I own, and it's hard to beat. I have gallons of brass for it. I can cast and powder coat thousands of little 100gr bullets that I load to about 18000fps, and they shoot soft, clean, reliable, and accurate. The kids love it and it's cheap to shoot. It may not be for everyone, but I like it.
 
Last edited:
Messages
3,661
Reactions
2,789
  • Woke Up Like This
  • Howdy Y'all
The only thing that I can see that may put Glock “behind the curve “ would be not having a direct answer to the p365. So what? That gun, like so many other, is not for everyone. Great gun but will not replace my g26! Considering that Glock was THE pioneer in the polymer movement, and that virtually every other polymer pistol seems to be a Glock wannabe(just my opinion), and has stayed true to their philosophy of simplicity and except reliability, not to mention their legion of “fan boys”, I’d say they were still pretty much riding high on that curve. Tried to locate a g19 lately?
Actually the HK VP70 was the pioneer of polymer pistols at least a decade before glock.much of the dependability and reliability is derived from expired Browning patents.
 
Messages
458
Reactions
694
If I’m not mistaken the vp70 was a machine pistol that went out of production after about 10 yrs. Didn’t have nearly the impact on the market as Glock. 30 some odd yrs later and Glock is still one of the best sellers world wide. Seems the old “one trick pony” is still king .
If it ain’t broke don’t fix it.
Ok, hijacked op’s thread far too much. Bivy53 out.
 

Camelfilter

Messages
6,026
Reactions
13,801
  • Law Around Here
  • Three Bags of Trash
  • Woke Up Like This
Always was interested in a Keltec SU 16, or variant thereof.

Would seem neat-o for a truck gun/backpack gun.

8261A528-6C3A-4A4E-AE41-9118A43173DA.jpeg

Ergonomics look allrite. Never bought one tho. Because...Keltec.

There newer iteration the RDB bull pup ergos look atrocious tho:

4B5AE1E8-F53E-4E67-B669-0D772D652229.jpeg

And someone please try and explain to me how the angle & the dangle on that front sight wouldn’t cause all kinds of problems...
 

The Heretic

Messages
17,359
Reactions
40,318
We'll just omit the 12 valve Cummins equipped trucks and call it even. The transmission problems don't count :D
But then there is the front end/steering issues.

My '97 3500 has brake/steering issues, and of course, fifth gear has slide off the splines, so no fifth gear. The transmission wasn't made by Dodge, so you really can't blame them too much for that - escept maybe that they could have spec'd it better. Still not sure what I am going to replace the trans with - I read that people have problems with the 6 speeds too.
 

UPCOMING EVENTS

Arms Collectors of SW Washington Gun Show
Battleground Community Center
912 E Main St, Battle Ground, WA 98604, USA
Cerberus Training Group - Run the Gun Pistol
Cerberus Training Group
47 Cattle Dr, Goldendale, WA 98620, USA
Cerberus Training Group - Run the Gun Rifle
Cerberus Training Group
47 Cattle Dr, Goldendale, WA 98620, USA

LATEST RESOURCE REVIEWS

  • HighLine Firearms
    5.00 star(s)
    Upstanding Vendor!
    Have worked with this business twice and both times were outstanding! Will definitely keep going to him when I'm up in that area! Shoot, will...
    • HA556
  • Oregon Arms & Ammunition
    5.00 star(s)
    Hellcat OSP
    I almost put "Limited "Covid induced" inventory" as a Con, but thought that wouldn't really be fair to them! The aftermath of Covid has depleted...
  • Vancouver Weapon Werx
    5.00 star(s)
    I have done a lot of deals here
    Gary's easy to work with when in town.
  • Vancouver Weapon Werx
    5.00 star(s)
    Excellent Business!
    I have been going to Vancouver Weapon Werx for years and know both owners quite well. The only downfall is I go there to purchase or have a gun...
  • SafeFire Indoor Shooting Range & Retail
    5.00 star(s)
    A great, safe place to go shooting
    Love this place!! Great staff, the range masters are friendly, helpful and alert. This is a safe place to shoot. The store is kind of low on stock...
    • GWS
Top Bottom