Got any plans for the Pistol Brace apocalypse?

[Yarome]

Braces are stocks so when it has a brace on it it will be an SBR. Come back in December and agree with me.

Study this in the mean time.

https://www.atf.gov/files/publications/download/p/atf-p-5320-8/atf-p-5320-8.pdf

In your opinon. Until the rule is published and unchanged from what we've seen so far, that may be.... "kind of true". But it hasn't and a brace is still a brace and a pistol with a brace is currently not an SBR.

Look it up! I'll wait. (as you are so fond of saying)

If you really took the time to read, you would realize that the ATF is not exactly trying to reclassify a brace as a "buttstock". What they are doing is saying that... even though it has a brace it may still qualify as an SBR under the new rule. That's a fine line, but even the worksheet distinguishes between "stocks" and "braces".

 

[Yarome]

Your refusal to read the regs is your problem not theirs.

https://www.guntrustlawyer.com/files/2015/02/Transport-a-Title-II-as-a-Title-1-across-state-lines.pdf

I just read them now. That provision doesn't apply to me so... does that mean I can lie on a federal form to get permission for a year, anyway??



(Sorry. Sometimes I forget your opinions, interpretations and desires are always right. I'll try to work on that.)

 

[User 1234]

That doesn't stop the ATF from prosecuting you. It just keeps the state from prosecuting you or assisting the feds in their prosecution. NFA prosecutions are ALWAYS federal . 2nd amendment sanctuary laws are futile.

Unfortunately this is true. People want to believe it gives them protection against federal prosecution when it doesn't.

 

[wired]

I just read them now. That provision doesn't apply to me so... does that mean I can lie on a federal form to get permission for a year, anyway??

You can lie all you want.Ive only known 7-8 people who've gone to prison on NFA charges. Not internet know. Actual acquaintances and friends. I say 7-8 because one just skipped the country to avoid jail time on his machine guns. Best man at my wedding . Runs a burger stand in Thailand now. I take this stuff more seriously than most people so I learn the regs and stick to them you can do whatever you want

No problem filing the 5320.20 for a year btw.Totally legal. I do about 30 a year. Just keep them in a word file and change the dates and email them. Takes 15 minutes.

 

[Yarome]

Ive only known 7-8 people who've gone to prison on NFA charges.

No problem filing for a year btw.

Selecting special provisions of rules that don't apply to me and calling it "good enough" to apply for a full year as SOP... because I probably won't get caught, and probably won't catch any heat over it, isn't exactly the route I would choose when it comes at the potential risk of my firearms rights.

I really wouldn't be encouraging others to do it either without them fully understanding they may be assuming some risk by doing so.

But thanks for the info.

 

[wired]

Selecting special provisions of rules that don't apply to me and calling it "good enough" to apply for a full year as SOP... because I probably won't get caught, and probably won't catch any heat over it, isn't exactly the route I would choose when it comes at the potential risk of my firearms rights.

I really wouldn't be encouraging others to do it either without them fully understanding they may be assuming some risk by doing so.

But thanks for the info.

What are you talking about? You, anyone, can file for a year of travel time interstate to wherever you want that allows NFA items on. 5320.20. Absolutely legal. What part are you obviously confused about?

 

[Yarome]

What are you talking about? You, anyone, can file for a year of travel time interstate to wherever you want that allows NFA items on. 5320.20. Absolutely legal. What part are you obviously confused about?

It's difficult to believe you're actually serious. Are you just trolling or trying to be funny?

"From the ATF's own NFA handbook...

One-year approval. If a person will be transporting his/her firearm(s) to the same location on a
continual basis, ATF will approve a transportation request for up to 1 year. Example: the person lives in
State A, has a farm in State B (State B allows possession of the particular firearm), and wants to take the
firearm to the farm throughout the year. The person may request permission for a 1-year period to
transport the firearm interstate to the farm. Any other interstate transportation would still require a
separate request and approval."

Form 20's do not allow for 12 month blanket permissions for interstate travel with any NFA item to any destination. UNLESS that special provision applies to you (transporting to and from the same locations on a continual basis) you may request for up to 1 year.

"Any other interstate transportation would still require a separate request and approval."

What part of that are you obviously confused about?

I can tell this is turning into a waste of time, so on this topic... you're on your own from here. The info is all there and most people can read.

 

[wired]

It's difficult to believe you're actually serious. Are you just trolling or trying to be funny?

"From the ATF's own NFA handbook...

One-year approval. If a person will be transporting his/her firearm(s) to the same location on a
continual basis, ATF will approve a transportation request for up to 1 year. Example: the person lives in
State A, has a farm in State B (State B allows possession of the particular firearm), and wants to take the
firearm to the farm throughout the year. The person may request permission for a 1-year period to
transport the firearm interstate to the farm. Any other interstate transportation would still require a
separate request and approval."

Form 20's do not allow for 12 month blanket permissions for interstate travel with any NFA item to any destination. UNLESS that special provision applies to you (transporting to and from the same locations on a continual basis) you may request for up to 1 year.

"Any other interstate transportation would still require a separate request and approval."

What part of that are you obviously confused about?

I can tell this is turning into a waste of time, so on this topic... you're on your own from here. The info is all there and most people can read.

Good lord. The 5320.20 allows you unlimited transport across state lines to wherever you want as I said up to a complete years duration. You put that place on a 5320.20 and you can travel to that place one time or hundred times .If you have 12 places you shoot in another state spend 10 minutes changing your pdf to reflect those places and email those in too. Major tragedy. The Place Of Your Choosing. Wherever You Want. Wherever you want is a place with an address. As I stated I have put the latitude and longitude of the entire state of Washington before and it was approved so they obviously don't care all that much. You can put an address and it will be approved as well. 12 adresses? 12 approvals. Easy button.

 

[mhayd93]

Good lord. The 5320.20 allows you unlimited transport across state lines to wherever you want as I said up to a complete years duration. You put that place on a 5320.20 and you can travel to that place one time or hundred times .If you have 12 places you shoot in another state spend 10 minutes changing your pdf to reflect those places and email those in too. Major tragedy. The Place Of Your Choosing. Wherever You Want. Wherever you want is a place with an address. As I stated I have put the latitude and longitude of the entire state of Washington before and it was approved so they obviously don't care all that much. You can put an address and it will be approved as well. 12 adresses? 12 approvals. Easy button.

You're arrogance never ceases to amaze; it's almost as strong as your zeal for the ATF and NFA lol.

Since you are obviously being facile in an attempt to deflect that your statement is not entirely true, let's spell out Yarome's point clearly:

Example: Let's say I just got an invite to go shooting at my buddy's property in Idaho next weekend; how does my "blanket approval" to travel to my farm in Washington cover the trip to Idaho with my SBR? It clearly doesn't.

Your scenario is only valid for individuals who know a specific location they will be going to, in advance.

Considering how rigid your thinking is, I am not shocked that you can probably plan out your entire year and only ever go to those exact places, so kudos to you!

Reality is that, for many individuals traveling, a blanket approval isn't going to cut it.

 

[wired]

You're arrogance never ceases to amaze; it's almost as strong as your zeal for the ATF and NFA lol.

Since you are obviously being facile in an attempt to deflect that your statement is not entirely true, let's spell out Yarome's point clearly:

Example: Let's say I just got an invite to go shooting at my buddy's property in Idaho next weekend; how does my "blanket approval" to travel to my farm in Washington cover the trip to Idaho with my SBR? It clearly doesn't.

Your scenario is only valid for individuals who know a specific location they will be going to, in advance.

Considering how rigid your thinking is, I am not shocked that you can probably plan out your entire year and only ever go to those exact places, so kudos to you!

Reality is that, for many individuals traveling, a blanket approval isn't going to cut it.

Prior Planning Prevents Piss Poor Performance. Remember the 6 P's? You know you have SBR's. You know you have friends in neighboring states that you go shoot at or you have ranges in those neighboring states you go shoot at. . Steel your mind. Spend that 10 minutes once a year and fill out a pdf. email it in. Put every address you think you might go shooting at. None of this is a surprise.. Be an organized person who plans things in advance.

Lets just ignore the fact that the ATF has ZERO statutory authority to tell you you cant go anywhere in said neighboring state once you have legally passed the border. Just leave that out. .One of my favorite things to do is to cite applicable court cases . In this instance looking for a cite of where someone has been convicted of travelling in a state with a approved 5320.20 to travel even though they were at a different location you know, just to determine legal precedence in the matter because thats how courts int he US work. . Nope couldn't find one. 53 years since the GCA and 88 years since the enactment of the NFA . Nothing. Tell you anything?.

If it sounds like I'm not giving a lot of credence to "Thats not good enough for ME " argument yeah. Thats true.

 

[Yarome]

just to determine legal precedence in the matter because thats how courts int he US work.

Just exactly WHERE do you think precedence in the US courts come from? Magic? If no previous precedence exists pertaining to a particular law, I guess those ones don't count and can't be used against us, hu!?

What would be more interesting to learn is how many people have got their hands caught in the cookie jar and entered a plea bargain. Settled with surrendering the firearm.. maybe along with a fine... to have charges dropped. Possibly with a period of probation and loss of firearm rights for a period of time. On the books, the offense is a fine and up to 5years. Like many federal laws though, that's more of a threat only applied to gross crimes. More typically... SOP is a slap on the wrist and dimissed or lessened under conditions.

I highly doubt many of those cases would be cited and indexed as any type of legal precedence.

If we were using our brains instead of just trying to make a "I'm right dammnit!" argument, anyway......

 

[wired]

Just exactly WHERE do you think precedence in the US courts come from? Magic? If no previous precedence exists pertaining to a particular law, I guess those ones don't count and can't be used against us, hu!?

What would be more interesting to learn is how many people have got their hands caught in the cookie jar and entered a plea bargain. Settled with surrendering the firearm.. maybe along with a fine... to have charges dropped. Possibly with a period of probation and loss of firearm rights for a period of time. On the books, the offense is a fine and up to 5years. Like many federal laws though, that's more of a threat only applied to gross crimes. More typically... SOP is a slap on the wrist and dimissed or lessened under conditions.

I highly doubt many of those cases would be cited and indexed as any type of legal precedence.

If we were using our brains instead of just trying to make a "I'm right dammnit!" argument, anyway......

Couldnt find one either huh? Boy you'd think almost 90 years of a "law" that really kinda doesn't exist would poop up one person convicted of travelling intrastate with a SBR in a state they were legally allowed to enter. Just one. In 90 years. One. To be honest though Ive never found a standalone conviction of anyone who didn't file a 5320.20 to travel at all. Almost like its not much of a priority. Huh.

You know one time I sold a can as an individual not a dealer. Didnt suite me. Ive sold a few over the years usually integrals. It was a few years after I had moved to a different state and had to give up my SOT. Didnt files a 5320.20. Forgot about it. An ATF agent called me and asked if I had moved and I told them I did and the agent said " Honey , you need to send a 5320.20 when you move to a different state. Could you email me one so I can do this transfer" Sure. No problem.

 

[nehalemguy]

This is starting to remind me of the discussions surrounding giving notice to the CLEO when you file a Form 1 or Form 4. A lot of people overthink that one as well.

Every year I fill out a 5320 in preparation for an annual camping trip in NW Nevada. I never quite know when we will go due to weather conditions. Sometimes we go as early as April. Sometimes as late as June. Each year is different on timing.

When I fill out the form, I list a date range and a location of "Black Rock Desert, NW Nevada". No physical address since there isn't one to give. I have never had a form not approved in the 8-9 years of doing this. and in the same 8-9 years I have never been asked or checked anyway.

My gut feeling is that while it is still "the law", the ATF looks at it as a legacy rule that really doesn't have much meaning in 2022 and doesn't put much effort into over thinking it or over enforcing it.

-E-

 

[Yarome]

Couldnt find one either huh?

Might be, might not. I probably don't take your word for it though. You had an FFL for 20yrs and didn't know you were exempt from having to file form 20's all that time, so..... makes a guy question the source, right?

I see absolutely no reason to waste my time trying to look for one. I'm not getting paid and the entertainment value just isn't there. Not everyone requires the validation in their lives and not everyone is so fanatical trying to prove their opinions "right" just for the sake of it.

The info has been posted and anyone is free to reseach it more if they like. Most people can read. "Most" are pretty good at reading comprehension and can make decisions all by themselves.

Carry on, Buddy!

 

[Member 53328]

This is starting to remind me of the discussions surrounding giving notice to the CLEO when you file a Form 1 or Form 4. A lot of people overthink that one as well.

Every year I fill out a 5320 in preparation for an annual camping trip in NW Nevada. I never quite know when we will go due to weather conditions. Sometimes we go as early as April. Sometimes as late as June. Each year is different on timing.

When I fill out the form, I list a date range and a location of "Black Rock Desert, NW Nevada". No physical address since there isn't one to give. I have never had a form not approved in the 8-9 years of doing this. and in the same 8-9 years I have never been asked or checked anyway.

My feeling gut is that while it is still "the law", the ATF looks at it as a legacy rule that really doesn't have much meaning in 2022 and doesn't put much effort into over thinking it.

-E-

Some people are so blinded by their "patriotism" or "refusal to comply with whatever" that there is simply no point in arguing or trying to explain your logic. Even if it is simply written and can be sourced with little effort.

People make something simple so much more difficult to validate their reasons on why they/we shouldn't do it, comply or blah blah blah.

They can do what they want while the ones who own NFA items will continue doing what they want. Without having to look over their shoulder, read a score sheet, or send photos. Yes I know the conspiracy of registration, confiscation, etc. if you bought your firearm legally your argument is void. Do what you want. And I'll do what I want. It's really pretty simple.

Freedoms are under attack. Yes.

It's been this way sense the foundation of America and will continue until the fall of this great country. Pick your battles and draw your lines. Each line will be placed in a different location for each individual.

 

[wired]

Might be, might not. I probably don't take your word for it though. You had an FFL for 20yrs and didn't know you were exempt from having to file form 20's all that time, so..... makes a guy question the source, right?

I see absolutely no reason to waste my time trying to look for one. I'm not getting paid and the entertainment value just isn't there. Not everyone requires the validation in their lives and not everyone is so fanatical trying to prove their opinions "right" just for the sake of it.

The info has been posted and anyone is free to reseach it more if they like. Most people can read. "Most" are pretty good at reading comprehension and can make decisions all by themselves.

Carry on, Buddy!

Haha. I had an FFL off and on for 20 years and haven't had one for 12 years now. 1991 to 2000 and 2003 to 2010 . Most of last 12 Ive lived in border towns and did them frequently because its never been something I'd consider a difficulty. I dont do them much at all now since I live in the middle of my state and when January comes this year I probably wont be filing at all given the great ranges and clear cut areas I have to shoot at locally.

In any case its not a big deal to fill one out and be in compliance but to be honest its not an issue if you dont bother.

 

[wired]

T

My feeling gut is that while it is still "the law", the ATF looks at it as a legacy rule that really doesn't have much meaning in 2022 and doesn't put much effort into over thinking it.

-E-

I think a lot of this stuff is just going through the motions for them. Im sure they would rather be doing just about anything other than dealing with eh brace thing but its getting pushed from on high.

 

[nehalemguy]

I think a lot of this stuff is just going through the motions for them.

Agreed. How exciting can it really be? "Oh look. Another law-abiding citizen sending us paperwork. Someone.......yawn......hit the alarm."

-E-

 

[billdeserthills]

That doesn't stop the ATF from prosecuting you. It just keeps the state from prosecuting you or assisting the feds in their prosecution. NFA prosecutions are ALWAYS federal . 2nd amendment sanctuary laws are futile.

Just as soon as I see a Sanctuary city not allowed to collect Federal matching funds, I'll agree

 

[billdeserthills]

Unfortunately this is true. People want to believe it gives them protection against federal prosecution when it doesn't.

The ATF is accustomed to being helped by local law enforcement when they make a bust--2nd Amendment Sanctuary States forbid local LE from assisting Feds