Good example of staying calm

[Medic!]

Whenever I critique somebody's actions. I run it through a very personal filter.
I'll try and describe it. Maybe others have had a similar thing happen?

I won't give a lot of detail. [I'll explain this later].
And I don't share this story often for the same reasons.

Once I tried to save a friend that went down.
He was maybe 12' away. With no way to reach him.

It took 45 minutes, and more guys almost getting themselves killed to get to him.
And in the end he died.

At the time I kept a calm head. I had trained for situations like this. [But not this!]
I was creative. And this did help get to him sooner.
But it was a lousy scenario.

In the weeks and months that followed. I heard people talk about what happened that day.
People with none of the facts. And all of the answers.

I learned people can't except the no-win scenario. Or even one with them not coming out on top.
It's too scary! So they make up the answers. Hindsight 20/20 style!
Just human nature.

But until the bear is chasing you around the tree. And it's you there. In that moment!
You don't know what it's really like.

Now about that lack of detail?
I found the more detail I give to people about this happening.
The more answers they give on what THEY would have done.

It's upsetting. They have it all figured out.

 

[Stomper]

Bottom line, the guy prevailed and was still standing when it was over.

There's overachievers, there's underachievers, then there's those who vapor-lock on the inane details and "intellectualize" and achieve nothing at all. In these situations how you won is irrelevant, that you won is everything.

 

[x2ndxall]

Bottom line, the guy prevailed and was still standing when it was over.

There's overachievers, there's underachievers, then there's those who vapor-lock on the inane details and "intellectualize" and achieve nothing at all. In these situations how you won is irrelevant, that you won is everything.

101

 

[Hal Jordan]

Once I tried to save a friend that went down.
He was maybe 12' away. With no way to reach him.

One of the best quotes ever is this:

For a rescue to be successful, both the rescuer and the rescued must survive.

And then here's another good one:

You can't save everyone.

I am sorry that happened to you...and him.

 

[jbett98]

I've been shot at, six times to be exact.
I had an alcoholic neighbor who was making his own blackberry wine and after drinking some of it to excess, decided that I was trying to screw him out of a load of firewood that I had promised him for the use of his chainsaw while mine was in the shop being repaired.
The pick up load in question was stuck in the mud just 25 yds away from his house and in plain view, but it didn't deter him from calling me out of my house and yelling at me in a drunken stupor why I was trying to rip him off.

When I walked down my driveway to try and explain to him that I needed a tow out of the mud, he pulled a .38 revolver from his pocket and tried to shoot me from 15' away.
As I stood there when he pulled the trigger on the first shot, my mind couldn't believe what was happening and then everything slowed down while my brain was arguing with my body to run like hell, he then got another shot off.

He was so drunk that he could barely stand upright and my brain or my body decided that standing still was safer then turning my back to him and the remaining four shots were even more wild then the first two.
When the gun was finally empty, I ran back into my house and had my wife call the County Sheriff, while I loaded up my 12 gauge shotgun in case he decided to pursue me.

Long story short, they arrested him after I had to call them back (they said they had no proof that he had attempted to kill me) so when they left, he started spraying a .22 rifle around his property, all the while yelling he was going to kill me.
They had parked just out of sight to do their paperwork when he went ballistic again and they heard his intent on wanting me dead.

 

[MisterLe]

There's a difference between studying a situation on tape to try to learn what can be learned from the event -- and just critiquing to critique to boast about how you'd do something better.

I feel most of the folks here are doing the former much more than the latter.

I think these videos are extremely valuable and any discussion of tactics that evolve out of them are valuable too.

Coach going over last Friday's game tape with the team isn't productive if he's just using it to belittle and degrade his players -- but that's not what most coaches use game tape for and that's not what people here are doing for the most part.

For example, I totally agree with the folks who noticed that he never seemed to give attention to the first scumbag he downed after those shots. I was thinking in my head the whole time "just look behind you bro, make sure he's still down, just a quick glance".

Making such an observation and discussing it isn't armchair quarterbacking, for the most part. It's simply making observations and trying to learn from them.

I would only hope that I was as cool, calm and effective as policia flaco there in the video -- but surely if he was able to join our discussion, he'd probably analyze and think about what he could have done even better with us.

 

[decklin]

There's a difference between studying a situation on tape to try to learn what can be learned from the event -- and just critiquing to critique to boast about how you'd do something better.

I feel most of the folks here are doing the former much more than the latter.

I think these videos are extremely valuable and any discussion of tactics that evolve out of them are valuable too.

Coach going over last Friday's game tape with the team isn't productive if he's just using it to belittle and degrade his players -- but that's not what most coaches use game tape for and that's not what people here are doing for the most part.

For example, I totally agree with the folks who noticed that he never seemed to give attention to the first scumbag he downed after those shots. I was thinking in my head the whole time "just look behind you bro, make sure he's still down, just a quick glance".

Making such an observation and discussing it isn't armchair quarterbacking, for the most part. It's simply making observations and trying to learn from them.

I would only hope that I was as cool, calm and effective as policia flaco there in the video -- but surely if he was able to join our discussion, he'd probably analyze and think about what he could have done even better with us.

Well said.
I too am surprised that people are so against a discussion. And here I thought conducting an AAR was the responsible thing to do.

 

[2A2Dend]

I learned in short order, as with any forum, to watch from afar. I read, analyze comment to absorb bits that makes sense. And what does not. To build from scenario, as my means in logic as a database my rationale needs for food and awareness.

Situations as in the topic of this thread, is food for my mental preparedness. I have tendency to read, people, in general. The look, demeanor, mindset, presentation, they are my built in barriers. And not easily passed.

On that note, I have few I call (if you will) true....friend. Though many acquaintances. Strange breeds everywhere.

 

[Stomper]

Strange breeds indeed... some refer to them as "mutts".

 

[Medic!]

OK then. Here is an observation.
And it's really about me. And my limitations.

I'm trying to consider his body's physiological response to a second deadly threat.
And be realistic on what I may or may not be able to actually do in this state?

It looks like he may have tunnel vision dealing with the second guy?

He just shot one man. And now must face another deadly threat.
And he's not sure how it's gona go down.
He may not be able to look back and cover the first guy he shot. His brain is only able to focus on one deadly threat at a time. And it's stuck right there!

The lesson I take from this. Is to understand how stress in a shootout may cripple my ability to perceive and deal with more than one deadly threat at a time.

I may need to resolve a threat completely. Or not get a second chance?
It would be smart of me to prevent the possibility, ''it comes back and kills me later''. When my brain is locked on another threat. And I just may not be able to juggle multiples?

Now it's possible I can stay calm. But it may be prudent to anticipate. That my mind may do things that are beyond my body's control?
Fighting two guys? Three guys? Five guys? All are possibilities. And my rational mind must have a limit?

And I will be fighting emotions and mental responses. Just like I'm fighting the bad guys.
So I better anticipate all my enemies.

I think the guy in the video did great!

 

[jbett98]

At the 20 second mark, he retrieves the pistol dropped on the floor by the second bad guy and quickly ejects the magazine which can be seen sliding across the floor.
He then drops the pistol at his feet.
Also, right after he shoots the first guy and moves towards the second bad guy, he does give the downed guy a quick look.

 

[Joe13]

I was out in the boonies at a job site around the back of a small building, more of a big box though.

Anyway, the wind was blowing really hard and with all the trees I couldn't hear my co-worker pull up to the site.

As I was going back to my truck for equipment He and I rounded the corner right at the exact time to suprise us both.

My reaction was to swing a right hook at him - his reaction was to fall back on his rear. Had I punched a jab I'd have probably connected with his jaw before he had moved.

We both laugh about it here and there (we will most likely always be friends - I have very few close people) but it was scary at the time.

I tend to react in such a way when I perceive a threat that my family stopped trying to "startle" me when my fear of actually hitting one of them had me begging them to stop.



Will I do as well in a LorD situation? I have no idea.

The closest I've come to being shot was at 16 and a gang banger (his race isn't important) accosted a friend and I in a parking lot. He pulled his shirt up to show us he had a gun. My first thought was to grab said gun as it was easily within reaching distance but my fear that he had 3 friends in the car he just got out of would out gun me/us if it came to a shootout overruled that thought.

I deescalayed the situation long enough to get my buddy and me Into my car and the heck out of there.

I was still calm when I called 911 a mile away at a gas station but after that the adrenaline dump kicked in and I started to crash and shake.

Police never found them even though we had most of the plate number and it was a very distinct car. That incident started my knowledge that I was on my own and police couldn't be counted on to help.

The people in the pizza joint we just left just watched out the window - I don't think anyone in there even bothered to call the cops.


If you ever want to see how you will do in a fire fight - while not 100% accurate, paintball is a very good activity as far as understanding line of sight and what will and won't "get you killed".

 

[mjbskwim]

(they said they had no proof that he had attempted to kill me)

WTF did this happen? The cops didn't think,after he shot at you 5?6? times,that he was trying to kill you?
Holly cow batman
Watch it again. He looks at the guy 4 times before he drags the other guy down and puts his foot on him. After that he must have been sure the guy wasn't regaining any semblance of a threat.
I'm guessing he's been down this road a time or two
I didn't mean to sound like I didn't think discussion was good. I just get a kick out of how some folks have it all figured out. I watch these things and hope I would do just like that guy did.
But I haven't been in battle or had anyone point or shoot a gun at me,so I can't say for sure what I would do.
Like in jbett98's post. I would like to think I would go down and pound the guy senseless after shooting at me and missing (with my temper it wouldn't be far off,after shaking the poo out my pants).but in reality,I would probably just go home and clean my pants out and call the cops

And if you are LEO or combat vet,then preface your post with that info, so we can learn from you instead of calling you an armchair quarterback

 

[jbett98]

My drunk neighbor was a very big lout and very drunk. I'm 155 lbs and other then kicking him in the gnads, I don't think any punch I could throw would have had any effect on him.
The loaded shotgun was the first thing on my mind as I made it back into my house.

The cops said that it was my word against his and until they had evidence, they couldn't/wouldn't do anything.
The neighbor kept yelling in front of them that I was just a lousy renter (I was renting the rural house) and after the cops arrested him, they asked if I hadn't paid my rent to him.
I explained that he wasn't my landlord and they then apologized to me because they thought it was a dispute between a renter and landlord.

When they did reappear the second time he did state that he would kill me as soon as they left.
That was all they needed.

As far as when this happened, it was over 30 years ago, but in my mind, it's as if it just happened last week.

 

[Joe13]

My drunk neighbor was a very big lout and very drunk. I'm 155 lbs and other then kicking him in the gnads, I don't think any punch I could throw would have had any effect on him.
The loaded shotgun was the first thing on my mind as I made it back into my house.

The cops said that it was my word against his and until they had evidence, they couldn't/wouldn't do anything.
The neighbor kept yelling in front of them that I was just a lousy renter (I was renting the rural house) and after the cops arrested him, they asked if I hadn't paid my rent to him.
I explained that he wasn't my landlord and they then apologized to me because they thought it was a dispute between a renter and landlord.

When they did reappear the second time he did state that he would kill me as soon as they left.
That was all they needed.

As far as when this happened, it was over 30 years ago, but in my mind, it's as if it just happened last week.

Bigger nads then I have bro. I'm big and would have been hustling my arse to my front door as soon as I saw that revolver - not sure I'd have had the presents of mind to stand still.

You said rural so I'm guessing no other neighbors near enough to you to verify they heard the first gun shots?

 

[jbett98]

The guy was the nicest person you could ever want to have as a neighbor, until he drank alcohol.
I was not the first renter to move from that house because of him I found out later.
The place sat on five acres, located on a dead end road sandwiched between BLM and private land.
The rent was incredibly cheap for such a nice house, as the owner wanted someone to keep a watch over his 90 year old mother-in-law who lived alone next door in a tiny homemade cabin.
I think I was in complete shock and rooted to the ground when he pulled out that .38 and tried to aim it at me.

Ever since that event, I always sit facing the door in public places, avoid large crowds and for a long time afterwards, I would get these weird flashes in my brain when talking to strangers that they may suddenly freak out and attack me.

Edited.


When I read about PTSD and returning combat veterans I kinda understand what they are going through.

 

[Joe13]

they may suddenly freak out and attach me.

I wouldn't want to be "attached" to someone either - and it brings to mind some very strange images... Human centipede anyone



Seriously, though PTSD is no joke... My dad has it from VN undiagnosed but you never dared to wake him up when he was/is sleeping because he is just as likely to wake up swinging at anything in front of him. Never got hit but learned to wake him up in other ways. I have similar issues for different reasons and have some empathy for the nervous in public, back to the wall is a necessity, covering all entrances and exits and large groups bother me.

I actually woke up hitting the mattress of our water bed so hard repeatedly once before my wife was screaming for me to wake up that I bruised my hand and wrist before I was awake - I still thank the big G man for not having ever hit my wife during one of those nightmares. Scares me senseless when it happens and I have to sleep on the couch for a few nights before I can get myself to sleep in bed again.

Good times

 

[clearconscience]

Just remember run in a zig zag pattern

 

[Provincial]

Just remember run in a zig zag pattern

From the descripton of the encounter, the zig zag pattern couldhave increased jbett98's chance of being hit by that drunk!

 

[clearconscience]

True. Freezing like a popsicle was genius!