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Good example of moving to cover

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He does a great job of getting out of the vehicle and getting behind it. My only critique is that its really easy to want to hold tight to concealment/cover. However, if you ever pie around a vehicle or even something like a concrete pillar, you’ll find that backing off of it will allow you to keep concealed, while giving yourself a better view of the bad guy. This works great in a case of tactical peekaboo. The officer eventually is able to move off the car and deliver the last couple shots. Good for him.
Yuppers .

"Training" that has people crowding walls and barricades makes me twitch.
 

zenbreath

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Yuppers .

"Training" that has people crowding walls and barricades makes me twitch.
I have to disagree. (I've never had lead fly my direction, but I've ducked a fair number of paintballs.)

In paintball you always snug up to cover. You can be behind cover, watching a potential opponent position a 1 o'clock, wrap around your cover to check another position at 11 o'clock, then, return to watching your primary position at 1 o'clock.

If you were three feet behind cover and checked the 11 o'clock position, you would be fully exposed if an opponent opened up from 1 o'clock.
 
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I have to disagree. (I've never had lead fly my direction, but I've ducked a fair number of paintballs.)

In paintball you always snug up to cover. You can be behind cover, watching a potential opponent position a 1 o'clock, wrap around your cover to check another position at 11 o'clock, then, return to watching your primary position at 1 o'clock.

If you were three feet behind cover and checked the 11 o'clock position, you would be fully exposed if an opponent opened up from 1 o'clock.
I think it is situation-specific. If u have an unknown number of assailants (or unknown locations) that is quite a different scenario IMO. like the situation ur talking about hugging cover may be the right thing to do.

In this case there was one bad guy and two vehicles primarily (bad guy moved away from vehicle later).

Hugging cover in the wrong place on a vehicle can be a mistake imo (for this situation). Having some distance between the vehicle and the cop is very helpful (despite the cop shooting his own window). Here is an example of how being too close to the car can be bad:
I think the main thing is to be aware of everything, including potential for ricochets (another ricochet example below). Also being aware of what parts of the car provide better cover than others.

Now let’s say three gun-wielding guys jumped out of the car that got pulled over and headed 3 different directions, in that case it may be smart to hug the vehicle for cover (being aware that engine block, etc provides more bullet stopping mass than doors etc). But hopefully in that situation the cop would get one or two of the bad guys as they get out of the car.
 
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I remember being trained to roll down the windows and keep the door at as much of an angel as possible. Supposedly the angle, car door and glass would be better than nothing. That was almost 30 years ago though.
 

Reno

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The calmness of the vehicle in the back and the old man walking on the left was a bit weird to me. Perhaps these two bystanders didn’t realize what was happening. I guess as a gun owner who chooses to carry a gun daily I like to think I have better awareness of gun sounds and would be making a much better job getting the F out of that area. I hope if I am ever in a scenario like they were, I would be better at preserving my life by getting the F away as fast as possible.

Also if you want to learn what it sounds like to be in the presence of gun fire while driving. Just drive around Browns Camp on the weekends. Chances are you might even get the opportunity to be down range of volley fire like this video if you drive around long enough.
 
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bbbass

bbbass

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I have to disagree. (I've never had lead fly my direction, but I've ducked a fair number of paintballs.)

In paintball you always snug up to cover. You can be behind cover, watching a potential opponent position a 1 o'clock, wrap around your cover to check another position at 11 o'clock, then, return to watching your primary position at 1 o'clock.

If you were three feet behind cover and checked the 11 o'clock position, you would be fully exposed if an opponent opened up from 1 o'clock.
I'm guessing that use of cover could be an entire class all by itself. IMO it is so situational!! More of a decision making process.

I can see where hugging cover gives some shelter, it's good for mag changes, and it's gotta be better than standing out in the open. But you would be blind to people sneaking up if you stayed there. Gotta move. Don't stay in one place. When moving, if you hug cover you are vulnerable to being disarmed, or shot, by the guy on the other side of the wall. The primary example is during CQB or house clearing.

I wonder what @Cerberus Group would say...
 
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I'm guessing that use of cover could be an entire class all by itself. IMO it is so situational!! More of a decision making process.

I can see where hugging cover gives some shelter, it's good for mag changes, and it's gotta be better than standing out in the open. But you would be blind to people sneaking up if you stayed there. Gotta move. Don't stay in one place. When moving, if you hug cover you are vulnerable to being disarmed, or shot, by the guy on the other side of the wall. The primary example is during CQB or house clearing.

I wonder what @Cerberus Group would say...
Good points! In the movies people r always hiding behind walls, desks etc but the reality is that bullets can go through walls. Being aware of that allows you to use the knowledge either for offense or defense.

I think it’s helpful when you see a shooting or videos of a shooting we can ask ourselves “what would i do if I were in place A, B, C” for that situation. The Las Vegas country music concert shooting for example.

Another example is that guy who shot out the glass in the ammo case in Walmart in the Seattle area. Then he ran out of the store and shot his way into stealing a car in the parking lot. So in that example we can ask, what would I do if I were: in the ammo isle?, somewhere else in the store?, at the store entrance?, in the parking lot?

The more often we do this the less of a surprise it will be when the real thing happens because you have already went through hopefully similar situations in your head. Thats why I do it at the range (sort of like mental reps for a quarterback). Or another example is airline pilots who have practiced numerous emergency situations hundreds of times.

You can’t really mimic the physiological affects of fight/flight/freeze such adrenaline, raised heartbeat, etc. that the real situation would create but you can practice your responses, and also your personal rules for “when would I intervene?” etc. So then u can be more clear-headed and hopefully more calm, collected, and confident when the real thing happens.

Imo if we react with panic we are probably going to have a bad result (or at least less than optimal). If we react with confidence, knowing that “I got this”, we are probably going to have the best result possible for that situation. And that only comes via practice (even if all we can do is mental reps at the range). That’s why I don’t do slow fire practice at all with my edc. It makes for mental practice in a calm, relaxed, slow environment which is the exact opposite of what u want to practice for (the potential real world situation). I’m talking about personal defense practice, not target practice at the range for fun, competitive target shooting etc. where slow fire is fun.
 
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bbbass

bbbass

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In the movies people r always hiding behind walls, desks etc but the reality is that bullets can go through walls. Being aware of that allows you to use the knowledge either for offense or defense.
Absolutely! I mis-spoke... most walls are concealment rather than cover. Big diff. However, actual gunfight evidence has shown that often concealment works like cover because the psychology of humans has us tending to think of it as impenetrable and not shoot thru it. BGs rarely shoot thru the wall, thru the cabinet, thru the desk, etc. I wouldn't want to count on it, but if that's all I got I'm using it! But I'll either be shooting back or looking for better cover, or a way to escape!!! (Defenders forget to escape, one often doesn't have to stand and fight!)
 
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A few points to ponder;

I was having a conversation with a mentor of mine who's been in numerous gunfights on the street, and after looking over hundreds...possibly thousands of videos over the years, as well as sitting in on some LE AAR's / Debriefs etc., we've noticed a trend that training sometimes doesn't always override;

More often than not...If a gunfight starts in the open, it ends in the open. LE tends to be more cover oriented then the civilian population, but training and a lot of it can, but not always fix this.

Retaining a dropped magazine has never affected the outcome of a gunfight. I can see where it would be more beneficial if you're with a group and your mission is to assault multiple positions, But for a lone civilian...doesn't happen. I think IDPA mandates something like this?

Shooting from retention. The mind likes a reference point. It needs something to triangulate with...eye, muzzle, threat. No matter how close the threat is, the shooter will always push the gun out in front of themselves enough to be able to see it.

Transitioning from right to left hand (pistol) - right to left shoulder (rifle) during a gunfight, for engaging around a barrier.

Kneeling - I'm a heavy proponent for staying on your feet. The lower you go the more loss of visibility and mobility you have.

Training everyone to sling shot the slide, than use a slide stop / catch etc. The theory goes, if you need to pick up another gun, you won't get confused...KISS. Again, has never affected the outcome of a civilian gunfight...or a LE gunfight that I can recall.

No one-hand manipulation. Has happened in group assaults, Miami 1986 FBI shootout comes to mind...but for civilians...no record of it that I've heard of.

@bbbass , you nailed this one! People won't shoot through barriers, meaning...if they can't see the person, they won't take the shot. I don't know of any training on this...except for my SAT class.

The problem I see with some of the above, most folks don't train enough to get used to using some of the techniques...such as right/left hand transitions, right/left shoulder transitions, one hand manipulations. Without consistent training, they will stay with what the brain knows.

Then there's low/no light. Hopefully everyone carries at least a handheld light and/or weapon mounted light. Discussions are numerous and hundreds of dollars are spent...how much time is spent working with them?

@bbbass stated above, the use of cover/concealment is very situational. Every incident will dictate what you do, and how you will do it. Remember, as a defensive shooter we are reacting to an incident, which means we need to use everything we have to turn the tables so the threat is now reacting to us.

I despise the word "defensive" in a gunfight or to describe any training. Once you employ the firearm, the hunted becomes the hunter. To effectively put down a rabid dog of society, one must be prepared to use way more force than what was initially applied to you.
When I say, put down a rabid dog of society...I coud care less if they die right then, tomorrow, next week, month or whenever. My point is to stop the threat/aggression ASAP...and you can't do that, if you don't have it in you to do it.

You can't train for every possible incident, you have to fight through what is dealt you at the time.
 
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Xaevian

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Absolutely! I mis-spoke... most walls are concealment rather than cover. Big diff. However, actual gunfight evidence has shown that often concealment works like cover because the psychology of humans has us tending to think of it as impenetrable and not shoot thru it. BGs rarely shoot thru the wall, thru the cabinet, thru the desk, etc. I wouldn't want to count on it, but if that's all I got I'm using it! But I'll either be shooting back or looking for better cover, or a way to escape!!! (Defenders forget to escape, one often doesn't have to stand and fight!)
This was going to be my reply.
 
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bbbass

bbbass

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Retaining a dropped magazine has never affected the outcome of a gunfight. I can see where it would be more beneficial if you're with a group and your mission is to assault multiple positions, But for a lone civilian...doesn't happen. I think IDPA mandates something like this?
Yes, it's an IDPA rule that a mag with rounds still in it must be retained. Given the available evidence, I'm also one of those that sees no benefit. AFAIK, most civilian gunfights don't even necessitate a mag change.


Transitioning from right to left hand (pistol) - right to left shoulder (rifle) during a gunfight, for engaging around a barrier.
I'm also aware of this.... I need to spend more time training on it.


Thanx for taking the time to reply!!!
 

EPS

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I have to disagree. (I've never had lead fly my direction, but I've ducked a fair number of paintballs.)

In paintball you always snug up to cover. You can be behind cover, watching a potential opponent position a 1 o'clock, wrap around your cover to check another position at 11 o'clock, then, return to watching your primary position at 1 o'clock.

If you were three feet behind cover and checked the 11 o'clock position, you would be fully exposed if an opponent opened up from 1 o'clock.
I have played plenty of paintball.
It's not the same paintballs break when they hit something bullet's don't.
And bullets travel a long walls and Skip and frag off cars walls the ground .
Whole different thing.
I do believe paintball can teach you some tactics just like airsoft.
But its not the same.
 

zenbreath

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Good points! In the movies people r always hiding behind walls, desks etc but the reality is that bullets can go through walls. Being aware of that allows you to use the knowledge either for offense or defense.

I think it’s helpful when you see a shooting or videos of a shooting we can ask ourselves “what would i do if I were in place A, B, C” for that situation. The Las Vegas country music concert shooting for example.

Another example is that guy who shot out the glass in the ammo case in Walmart in the Seattle area. Then he ran out of the store and shot his way into stealing a car in the parking lot. So in that example we can ask, what would I do if I were: in the ammo isle?, somewhere else in the store?, at the store entrance?, in the parking lot?

The more often we do this the less of a surprise it will be when the real thing happens because you have already went through hopefully similar situations in your head. Thats why I do it at the range (sort of like mental reps for a quarterback). Or another example is airline pilots who have practiced numerous emergency situations hundreds of times.

You can’t really mimic the physiological affects of fight/flight/freeze such adrenaline, raised heartbeat, etc. that the real situation would create but you can practice your responses, and also your personal rules for “when would I intervene?” etc. So then u can be more clear-headed and hopefully more calm, collected, and confident when the real thing happens.

Imo if we react with panic we are probably going to have a bad result (or at least less than optimal). If we react with confidence, knowing that “I got this”, we are probably going to have the best result possible for that situation. And that only comes via practice (even if all we can do is mental reps at the range). That’s why I don’t do slow fire practice at all with my edc. It makes for mental practice in a calm, relaxed, slow environment which is the exact opposite of what u want to practice for (the potential real world situation). I’m talking about personal defense practice, not target practice at the range for fun, competitive target shooting etc. where slow fire is fun.
A good plan executed Right NOW, beats a perfect plan executed too late.

Simple questions with fast answers.
Flee, Hold or Attack?

Where are my people?

Where is the exit?
 

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