gold/silver questions

[Grunwald]

HollisOR, I don't trust Wikipedia as the authoritative source of factual information, and this article that you have linked to is a perfect example why.
The author ran "loosie goosie" with definitions. Maybe I'm just anal but even though the population at large does not seem to know it, technically there is a difference between currency and money.
Money does have real value, and is anything of value that can be used to buy goods and services.
Currency is what does not have any real value.

 

[Burt Gummer]

It is fortunate that the 98% have faith in the dying fiat currencies and what their TVs tell them. If that we not the case it would not be possible for the informed to purchase silver at $38.00 which still the greatest financial opportunity of our lives.

All fiat currencies fail. To believe the dollar won't collapse is delusion. You can't print trillions of dollars out of thin air and not expect to destroy the currency. Even a child could figure that one out, no need for an economist.

Watch Peter Schiff, Gerald Celente, Max Kaiser videos on YouTube, learn, understand; protect yourself before it is too late and you are starting a bonfire with useless cash.

 

[Brown Trout]

Grunwald, Maybe it was my writing, but I never said a person should not invest in gold or silver. Just like today, if a person is buying gold and silver they see value in it. Again Money needs no intrinsic value. Just like your VISA card, for all practical purpose it is worthless in it self. Trading commodity for commodity is still done, I still barter to some extent. Anyone on this forum who barters should know it's pros and cons. Most places that I acquire stuff do not barter, that good old VISA card works very well in those occasions.

Brown trout in 1965, you are talking about silver certificate, they were not made out of silver. No, I am not talking about silver certificates. I am talking about the silver coinage that was in regular circulation that was, as you say, 90% silver. Coins were 90%. There are plenty of books about the money stock. Maybe, then, in light of what is happening to our Dollar, it is time to put down your Keynesian books of economic theory that espouse this circular flow crap and pick up something with a little Austrian flavor to it. Start out small, maybe Road To Serfdom. As I mentioned in the SHTF, was a worse case, where survival was number one problem and there are no markets. Weird, I didn't take you for a protectionist.There will always be markets. Always. There always has been (me caveman, me hungry because me spent whole day making fire, me trade fire for meat from hunter with no fire) The Value in any money is what you can exchange it for. If no body wants it, it is worthless. Same with commodities in a barter society.Finally something we can agree on. This is why I say, the value of gold or silver can be debated, but the value of the dollar cannot. It has no intrinsic value.

it is wiki, so it is short: Money - Wikipedia, the free encyclopediaI really hope wiki is not where you are getting all of your ideas.

I think we are just going to have to agree to disagree. SHTF--gold and silver will have value. It may not to you, but it will to someone. The Dollar--when not backed by something, can be manipulated whenever desired. We have seen that since the incarnation of the Fed. Reserve Board. The dollar is losing value daily, as evidenced by how many of them it takes to buy an ounce of silver. When we have an economic collapse, if you think dollars will pay your bills, I wish you the best of luck. If you think all creditors are going to accept bullets or wheat as payment, I wish you the best of luck. At that point you will learn the true value of silver or gold as compared to the Dollar.

 

[EZLivin]

...When we have an economic collapse, if you think dollars will pay your bills, I wish you the best of luck. If you think all creditors are going to accept bullets or wheat as payment, I wish you the best of luck...

+1.

-----------------------------------

Dollars (or whatever the name of the currency will be) will pay bills, but it will take a helluva lot more of them than it does now. Wages will not keep pace with currency debasement/inflation. As Sinclair points out, "...it is the currency that breaks, not the country.” The U.S. will still be here; those who think their supplies will be the "new currency" will be spending a lot of their time on Craigslist trying to raise cash. Our living standards here in the US (and western world) peaked three years ago. Check your ancient history folks (1950s, 1960s, 1970s). Everyone didn't own a McMansion and have an expensive and crappy British SUV in their driveway back then, but those were not such bad times (except for the idiotic war). We are headed back to those days.

(If instead of a continued economic collapse we get hit with an asteroid, or experience a pole shift, then I will admit that I was wrong.)

 

[djm68]

Gents and NWFA Memebers ;-)

I think we have a failure to communicate -- specifically, it would seem that we understand the term "SHTF" in different ways. I think much of the disagreement on this thread would be mitigated/reduced we had a common understanding of "SHTF".

If we understand "SHTF" and total and complete loss of society/culture, as in "The Road", then I totally agree: gold/silver have not value.

If we understand "SHTF" as a war, major long term civil unrest, massive disease, currency collapse, etc, then without doubt silver/gold will have value, just as it has many, many times throughout history during times of extreme duress.

The former scenario has never occur, while the later scenarios has occurred and re-occurred through history. I wonder how many of you have read-up on the dark ages -- a terrible time in human history and, to those living through it, it am sure it seemed like the end of the world...and yet silver/gold retained their worth.

Cheers,
DJM

 

[Thebastidge]

Well, you have a couple major categories of preppers. End timers have a very different view of what they are prepping for than the rest of us.

 

[MikeE]

All I can say is when I converted my life savings to silver at $12.80/ounce a lot of my friends were laughing. My accountant also thought it was nuts. Unbelievably, many still do. That is how powerful the propaganda regarding the dollar and our ponzi economy really is; makes you step back in disbelief. A nation with 14 trillion in debt (actually 60+ with unfunded liabilities) is still out waging worthless wars. The bankers, which are nothing more than crows by the roadside, have won.

All things related to paper will go 'poof' - IRA, stocks, savings; not if, but when. I feel pity for the unprepared, especially older folks. 98% of the American people are swamped in delusion - YouTube - THE REALITY DETACHED AMERICAN : a SGTbull micro-doc

That was great!

 

[huntpotter]

I thought I was smart, recently, by cashing in some silver, at $35 an oz, that I origionally paid $15 an oz for. Then I was talking with the silver guy, and he said that it was up to $50 an oz, back in the 1970's. So I guess you just have to ride the wave. Market goes up and down. Invest smart. Obviously I'm not buying silver now, but if it goes back down to $15 an oz, I'll stock up some more. For now, I'll hold on to what I got. Metals are a good investment, but I still put $100 a month into a mutual fund. I also put away $100 worth of ammo, gun stuff, and canned food each month. Be prepared, but not paranoid. Silver is a good investment, if you are ahead of the price inflation.

I'm investing for my retirement, not the end times. If the end of the world happens, I hope I go in the rapture. Silver won't do me any good in that case. I prepare for the near-end times, which could be now, by stocking up on ammo, and keeping my shooting skills honed. Who knows................

 

[EZLivin]

Taking a profit once in awhile is not necessarily a bad thing, particularly if it goes into essential things that one needs. I just feel sorry for those who do not understand or see where we are in the monetary/debt cycle, and thus have not prepared for what is unfolding.

 

[Grunwald]

Taking a profit once in awhile is not necessarily a bad thing, particularly if it goes into essential things that one needs. I just feel sorry for those who do not understand or see where we are in the monetary/debt cycle, and thus have not prepared for what is unfolding.

Majority of American will be just fine if the US Dollar collapses. Consider the fact that most people have more debt than savings and you'll realize that it is only those that live prudent lives that get screwed by monetary collapses. Those who are in debt up to their eye balls actually benefit from it.
I am not suggesting that people put themselves in debt, but those are the facts.
I still need to do something about my IRA accounts to insulate them from what I believe is coming. Unfortunately, unless I change jobs I am stock with my 401K being in stocks or bonds.

 

[EZLivin]

Majority of American will be just fine if the US Dollar collapses...

I have to disagree with that. I would suggest the citizens of Argentina, Brazil, Chile, Germany, Mexico, and scores of others would also disagree. I understand the idea that having debt during a devaluation may have benefits, but any benefit will, in my opinion, be dwarfed by the negatives associated with a much higher cost of living (cost inflation outpaces wage inflation during these events). Add in the inevitable decreases in social spending/programs and you have a worsening standard of living for most people. The "broke" Americans now will still be "broke" then, but just about everything they purchase will cost significantly more. I don't think most Americans will be "just fine," but we shall see.

 

[Barefoot343]

I have to disagree with that. I would suggest the citizens of Argentina, Brazil, Chile, Germany, Mexico, and scores of others would also disagree. I understand the idea that having debt during a devaluation may have benefits, but any benefit will, in my opinion, be dwarfed by the negatives associated with a much higher cost of living (cost inflation outpaces wage inflation during these events). Add in the inevitable decreases in social spending/programs and you have a worsening standard of living for most people. The "broke" Americans now will still be "broke" then, but just about everything they purchase will cost significantly more. I don't think most Americans will be "just fine," but we shall see.

I have to agree. Any way you look at a devalue or complete dollar meltdown, it isnt a good situation for anybody. Paying $20.00 or more for a loaf of bread doesn't sound to exciting. Now if I could be paid $20.00 to pinch a loaf that would be something.

 

[EZLivin]

...Now if I could be paid $20.00 to pinch a loaf that would be something.

Bet you could find a guy with a video camera who would pay you. Try Craigslist or Backpage.

---------------

Couple of mainstream media examples of what I was saying. This is how it shows up at first. Don't even have to read the articles; the headlines say it all:

News Headlines

US consumers use savings to pay for basics - Telegraph

 

[nubus]

Paying $20.00 or more for a loaf of bread doesn't sound to exciting. Now if I could be paid $20.00 to pinch a loaf that would be something.

I did the math, and if I take my time, I can make $20 pinching a loaf.

 

[Barefoot343]

well, after I made that comment I immediately started to regret it because I wasn't sure if folks would find the humor in it or not. I feel a little better seeing there are others with a good sense of humor on here too.

 

[Grunwald]

The stories that EZLivin pointed to unfortunately are nothing new. I actually noticed this being done with candy bars back in the late 70s and though the 80s.
There used to be commercials on TV where the manufacturer would be making claims of "now 20% bigger, same price". This would occur over and over again every so often, yet I've noticed that somehow with all these supposed increases in size the candy was not any bigger. Even as a teenager I smelled a rat, and concluded that they must be shrinking the candy bar, just so later they can claim that they are making it bigger. Back then however I've only noticed this sort of a game being played with candy bars.

This have changed a few years ago however. Does anyone remember what the standard size for ice cream container was? It was 1/2 gallon. That changed a couple of years ago, and now you'll be hard pressed to find one that size. They all seem to be 1.5 or 1.75 quarts.
I know a couple years ago these same sort of stories about shrinking sizes were in the news also.

There are other ways that these companies use to try to fool us, and that is to change the formula or ingredients that go into a product. Did you know for instance that Hershey has reduced the amount of cocoa butter that goes into their chocolate? They replaced it with some oil, but I don't remember which anymore as I have read that story over a year ago.

 

[EZLivin]

The stories that EZLivin pointed to unfortunately are nothing new...

For sure; not new, but I suspect happening more often now. I think we are nearing the point where we go into hyperdrive. (But I don't know how soon; I am usually too early in my estimates). There is more than one way to fool the public when one wants to increase price per ounce. It has been a gradual increase for decades, but my thoughts are we will get to a point where it can't be hidden (the point where everyone realizes we are in trouble). In severe inflation costs rise faster than the manufacturers ability to adapt, so prices noticeably increase on a regular basis. One place it can't be hidden is at the pump. I guess we could be like Canada though; price gas in quarts or liters.

 

[Grunwald]

EZLivin, agree with you completely about the cost rising so much that they will not be able to hide them.
My mom, who is a very frugal woman has already been complaining about the increase in food costs.
She's very sensitive to it, and notices right away. I'm lucky enough to have a good paying job and not a lot of time, so I do not really notice these things as much right now.

 

[Burt Gummer]

Walmart's CEO spoke out yesterday about extreme inflation coming.

From the Economic Depression Blog; sums up the case for buying silver/gold pretty well:



People to believe we will never see inflation and that hedging against it with precious metals or other commodities is a waste of time.

Eventually the Chinese and others will stop trading real tangible things/goods for monopoly money backed by nothing. The dollar will be removed as the world reserve currency. ALL fiat currencies have failed historically. Savings, IRAs, checking, mutuals, stocks, CDS, anything paper will greatly devaluate, if not evaporate.

Many millionaires will be turned into ‘thousandaires' in short order, within hours or days. Of course, some event can be arranged to take the blame for this planned grand theft. The banks collect up all the ‘real things' like land and homes while Joe Stooge is stuck holding a sack of worthless dollars.

Wall street and the banks have taken over via the private Federal Reserve cabal of banksters. They own all the important politicians. Politics is worthless. The two-headed one party system is a fraud. Same agenda, nothing changes. They are selected, not elected. Politicians don't give a damn about you, at all.

How would you like to run a business where you are handed money at .01% interest and then you turn around a charge 21 % interest + penalties to poor saps using credit cards to stay afloat?

The mob never had it that good. They bathe in money and pay out billions in bonuses to themselves, sell out their stock positions (4000:1), buy commodities, and prepare. Meanwhile, Sheeple America is so deluded, so distracted with entertainments, they simply don't care as the Titanic slowly sinks. Will Tia will American Idol or will it be the country guy?

In 1893, the people figured it out – it was all the banksters. They actually dragged them out and hung them from the street posts. In 1929 it was also all the banksters (they hoarded dollars vs mass printing them then) in order to bring down the economy and do their looting. Surely now with the internet people aren't so naïve and they can figure out who is bending them over, yet again!? Wrong. YOU can figure it out though. YOU can prepare.

 

[Brown Trout]

Walmart's CEO spoke out yesterday about extreme inflation coming.

From the Economic Depression Blog; sums up the case for buying silver/gold pretty well:



People to believe we will never see inflation and that hedging against it with precious metals or other commodities is a waste of time.

Eventually the Chinese and others will stop trading real tangible things/goods for monopoly money backed by nothing. The dollar will be removed as the world reserve currency. ALL fiat currencies have failed historically. Savings, IRAs, checking, mutuals, stocks, CDS, anything paper will greatly devaluate, if not evaporate.

Many millionaires will be turned into ‘thousandaires' in short order, within hours or days. Of course, some event can be arranged to take the blame for this planned grand theft. The banks collect up all the ‘real things' like land and homes while Joe Stooge is stuck holding a sack of worthless dollars.

Wall street and the banks have taken over via the private Federal Reserve cabal of banksters. They own all the important politicians. Politics is worthless. The two-headed one party system is a fraud. Same agenda, nothing changes. They are selected, not elected. Politicians don't give a damn about you, at all.

How would you like to run a business where you are handed money at .01% interest and then you turn around a charge 21 % interest + penalties to poor saps using credit cards to stay afloat?

The mob never had it that good. They bathe in money and pay out billions in bonuses to themselves, sell out their stock positions (4000:1), buy commodities, and prepare. Meanwhile, Sheeple America is so deluded, so distracted with entertainments, they simply don't care as the Titanic slowly sinks. Will Tia will American Idol or will it be the country guy?

In 1893, the people figured it out – it was all the banksters. They actually dragged them out and hung them from the street posts. In 1929 it was also all the banksters (they hoarded dollars vs mass printing them then) in order to bring down the economy and do their looting. Surely now with the internet people aren't so naïve and they can figure out who is bending them over, yet again!? Wrong. YOU can figure it out though. YOU can prepare.

+1000

I wish the men of this nation weren't the castrated lot they appear to be, or these thieves would be swinging from the light poles, right next to all the (R)'s and (D)'s that are selling us down the river.

"Capital must protect itself in every possible manner by combination & legislation. Debts must be collected, bonds & mortgages must be foreclosed as rapidly as possible. When, through a process of law, the common people lose their homes they will become more docile & more easily governed through the influence of the strong arm of government, applied by a central power of wealth under control of leading financiers. This truth is well known among our principal men now engaged in forming an imperialism of Capital to govern the world. By dividing voters through the political party system, we get them to expend energies fighting over questions of no importance. Thus by discreet action we can secure for ourselves what has been so well planned & successfully accomplished."
— USA Banker's Magazine (August 25, 1924)