Going Off-Grid, State of Solar, and Other Questions & Musings (from "crazy cowboy")

CountryGent · Nov 27, 2018

So, we are looking at various land parcels in northern Nevada, making plans, crunching the numbers, et al. The land I'd really like is, well, really remote. Naturally, there are logistical concerns to deal with.

In a brief overview:

Water, no problem, though not cheap, to develop a well and irrigation system. Still, simple considering.
Septic is even easier. Pay to have a septic system put in and done.
Heat, also no problem, in the form of a woodstove. Though the acquisition of fuel may be harder and so this is a consideration. Right now if I need said, I can either:
- Hike up the hill, fell the trees, buck it, split it, season it, and then burn it. Done.
- Just buy some for a couple c-notes. Also done.
If not wood, maybe coal or a pellet stove? Done the latter, and it was "good enough", but have not done the former.
Communications, also not particularly difficult, though not particularly optimal. Internet via a wired or wireless (e.g., microwave) connection, or worse case satellite. Beyond that, I/we are ham and GMRS licensed.
Power ... uh-oh, we have a big problem. If on grid, no problem. If not, I am not seeing a viable option, which brings me to the main question.

From what I've seen with the current state of solar power, gathering (via panels) is not a problem. It has never been more affordable than now. Storage of said power, however, stills seems to be a serious problem. We have two adults, two little potatoheads, a household, and in this project, greenhouses to power. I freely admit to being no expert on the topic, but I can't see how we can run on solar alone, even augmented by a propane-powered generator. However, I am open to ideas, and if I am wrong on this analysis, I would be delighted to be corrected.

Thanks friends.

P.S. The parenthetical statement in the title is a personal memory, evoked for the first time in many decades. I've been corresponding with my elderly father, who is very supportive of these plans, and today he called me said appellation in a message. It was a nickname I had forgotten about, dating to a very young stage of life, and because of my youthful hijinks in our home in the wilderness of Oregon, so long ago. I had not hear that one in a long while and laughed so hard my side hurt. :s0112:

MikeInOr · Nov 28, 2018

I have read that old hybrid car batteries are used as inexpensive solar storage after their charge retention level has fallen under the level where they are useful for hybrid cars. There charge per weight to is too low for vehicles but charge to weight doesn't really matter for fixed solar storage.

Certaindeaf · Nov 28, 2018

After all is said and done, I'd still consider augmenting the system with a suitable generator.

Stomper · Nov 28, 2018

Crazy Cowboy sounds like the handle for a Chopper Pilot.... LOL.

Supplemental hampsters running on generator wheels and you can feed them pinenuts, turtles are too slow unless you have some SERIOUS gear reduction flywheel action.

What about a wind turbine(s) to supplement? The winds pick up with temperature changes, plus they kill off pesky sparrows!

notazombie · Nov 28, 2018

Wind turbines might be feasible. I ran from Carson City to Boise yesterday and had a really strong tailwind almost the entire way. Same storage quandry though. I can't help you there.
There is a whole lotta nothin' between Carson City and Boise.

techiej · Nov 28, 2018

If you have water on your property then a micro hydro system can be used in addition to everything else...in fact if you have enough water storage you can use excess electricity from wind + solar to pump water to the tank and then use the flow out to generate electricity when there is insufficient wind + solar. If you have a nice stream that is even better since you won't have to pump to storage.

Regardless, unless you have a heck of a lot of battery storage = and even then - you will want some form of generator.

KKG · Nov 28, 2018

You can use Propane for lots of things. Stoves(Oven), Frig, Hot Water, Heating and Generator. But you won't really be "off the grid".

I'd suggest you look at a 12volt system for lighting and several wind turbines. This would require things like spare parts and the mechanical skills and knowledge to do the repairs.

Building with lots and lots of insulation will also be necessary. You might want to think about putting some structures underground. Things like a heavy-duty generator, the battery store room, your Gun Vaults and your Man Cave are just some of the things I can think of.

If there isn't a lake then I'd add one.

Good Luck.

Geardo · Nov 28, 2018

KKG said:
You can use Propane for lots of things. Stoves(Oven), Frig, Hot Water, Heating and Generator. But you won't really be "off the grid".

I'd suggest you look at a 12volt system for lighting and several wind turbines. This would require things like spare parts and the mechanical skills and knowledge to do the repairs.

Building with lots and lots of insulation will also be necessary. You might want to think about putting some structures underground. Things like a heavy-duty generator, the battery store room, your Gun Vaults and your Man Cave are just some of the things I can think of.

If there isn't a lake then I'd add one.

Good Luck.

A property with a fast flowing year round stream that could be used for power and have a small amount diverted to a pond that could be stocked with fish would make things much easier.

IOM · Nov 28, 2018

I realize this has nothing to do with hydro, Solar and such, but many going off grid seem to forget about the medical aspects of accessibility...

How far away from any major medical facility will you be if something catastrophic occurs...???

Just saying...

KKG · Nov 28, 2018

Unless you are Vegans, I'd suggest a cow(milk and butter etc) or two and some beef cattle(a nice Steak). The Lake would make water storage much easier and could be stocked with fish.

justcuz · Nov 28, 2018

There is a a mennonite community in Argentina which combined solar/wind [since batts already in use] for daytime usage; propane heating H2O/cooking; pellet heaters for only common areas [sleeping areas left w/o heat]; powering genset(s) up only for cloudy days & evening hours for lighting - promptly shut off at exactly 9pm daily.

Oh, they lived under high tension power line grid but refused to pay for hook up.

Quit thinking you need power everywhere as well as combining those products which share equipment, e.g. batteries & control panels and your project will become more manageable.

Finally, buy new batts as used are quite finicky and can have internal issues which do not show up under individual testing but under load or in series will/could destroy the entire bank and control panels if they fail!

KKG · Nov 28, 2018

justcuz said:
Finally, buy new batts as used are quite finicky and can have internal issues which do not show up under individual testing but under load or in series will/could destroy the entire bank and control panels if they fail!

Yepa, Yepa!

There is a "Reason"

someone is selling the battery. It usually means that something is just not right. The Marine Grade or Deep Cycle ones are what you want.

BlindedByScience · Nov 28, 2018

I have some friends that own island property, as well as some large watercraft. Which is to say they are relatively experienced with making and using off the grid power. On the island, their solution was to have a deep cycle lead acid battery bank in the house, charged by a generator. They'd run the generator until the bank was charged in the morning, and then it'd power everything in the house just fine, with the exception of anything with a heating element in it (dishwasher, dryer, etc..). My last visit was about a decade ago so things have changed just a bit.

Given the current state of the art, I'd do the same thing with two exceptions; one, I'd investigate battery technology and see what's available. Deep cycle lead acid still isn't a bad idea, but maybe some of the newer chemistry cells would be a better choice. Simple to factor cost / performance / longevity there. Two, I'd consider augmenting the system with solar panels. They're far better than they were a decade ago, but make no mistake - they have a lifetime.

I'd also consider a propane installation that could run the generator, stove, furnace...even the clothes dryer. Bottom line is you'll have to have diesel or propane delivered, one way or the other. Propane may make a lot of sense....and, when stored in volume over time, it doesn't have the issues that a big diesel tank does.

Best of luck with your efforts - !!

P7M13 · Nov 28, 2018

I've had extensive discussions with a colleague who also wants to buy land in the area.
Your biggest problem is water.
Let me be a Loco Cabrón, wave my magic wand and et voila!, you now have all the water you need.
As others have mentioned, hydro. Most cost effective plus provides food.

Oh, wait. You're talking northern Nevada high desert. Dry as fvck, hot as h3ll in the summer, cold in the winter.

Become proficient at self medical care
Housing is best subterranean. Have ground level structures too so you guys can enjoy the natural beauty around you.
If you have geographic support, I'd look at wind first with wind being channeled by the geography.
Solar to deep cycle lead acid. Not as high of a charge density as Li technology, but better life cycle and a whole lot cheaper.
Man-power (i.e. bicycle generators) to charge the batteries as emergency backup.
Full spectrum LED lamps for your greenhouse food growing. They work well - I have seen them employed in weed grows. 1/10th the electric and very little heat signature.
Grow hemp or rapeseed in the scrub - then use bacterial process to produce ethanol for fuel.
All organic waste goes into a fermentation pit, capture the methane.

As far as water, you're going to spend a crap-ton to drill a well. I suspect the depth will be extensive, and as such you will need backup pumps, etc.
If the water available is questionable in quality, invest in water purification: deionization and reverse osmosis. At least those can be gravity fed, closed systems from a sistern.
Since you are down in that area, wander over to OIT in K Falls and tour their geothermal project.

Lots more, but those are a few thoughts that came to my head as I read your post.

[ETA]
Forgot to mention - everything you do must be geared toward conservation and reuse. Considering any form of waste system, such as a septic, is contradictory to your objective.
If you have truckloads of money, and this is a feel-good hipster project, good for you. If frugality and independence are the objective there are many ways to get around obstacles. Extensively detailed planning is critical.
Power management and backup systems are also critical. Purchased new, they can be ungodly expensive. IIRC, you do know software. You can repurpose frequency drives for both feeding AC to the batteries and taking batteries and giving clean, three phase power.

MannyGlocks · Nov 28, 2018

How far from grocery shopping?

This is not something I read about in this thread. (unless I overlooked it)

I bring it up as I've lived waaaaaaaay off the grid for about a year and the biggest problem I had was staying stocked with enough food as I wasn't about to live off just beans, rice, and canned goods alone.

Something to consider...

ROC · Nov 28, 2018

I reluctantly bought into solar, wife's idea, but now I'm sold. We worked with salespeople from 5 different companies and I got a lot of information/misinformation. We went with A&R solar. A&R will write me a check for $500 if someone I recommend buys solar from them, the purchaser of a new system will get $500 too. If anyone wants more detail on solar stuff let me know.

I don't know about about Nevada but in Oregon and Washington there are financial incentives for solar. These incentives include structural upgrades and new construction. We were able to recover about 30% of the cost to install a new roof on our garage.

Working with Puget Sound community Credit Union we got a lower interest rate on the solar install than we could find anywhere else. The loan uses the solar equipment as collateral.

Heating uses lots of electricity. If you can heat with wood, hot water too, you are way ahead.

Solar is seasonal. Most of the installers we worked with use a Solmetric SunEye to evaluate the site for sun exposure. If the annual exposure is to low then you do not qualify for the financial incentives. I cut down some trees based on this evaluation. We have a friend that generates their own power with hydro. The seasonality or hydo/solar would seem to make them a good paring if you could do it.

We are set up with a net meter from PGE. They don't pay us for the electricity we produce, you get a check in the mail in Washington, but we can bank what we don't use against future consumption. With this arrangement it doesn't make sense financially to store power, but I want storage for obvious reasons. When we installed our system every salesperson we talked to said to wait on purchasing batteries, but our system is designed to facilitate their addition.

For storage I really like the idea of sharing a battery between an EV and home use. Nissan has their leaf to home product which I think is very exciting. I called Nissan about a year ago and they did not offer it in the US, nor did they plan to. I have been told building code would prevent this here.

Currently the Tesla powerwall can only be charged with solar. They do this to meet the criteria for tax incentives. I think SMA has a comparable battery that will accept being charged from a number of sources. I have it in my head that we could use a small generator to trickle charge a house battery to meet a higher load demand; this may be to inefficient to mess with and I haven't heard of anyone else doing it.

CountryGent · Nov 28, 2018

Thanks all for the thoughts thus far. Random thoughts, replies, etc.

I should clarify, the goal of this project is not to be "off-grid". In fact, if that can be avoided, we will. The purpose is to:
- Expand our land holdings and have more flat ground for growing.
- Live in a place with a lot less rain.
- Live farther away from the mutants.
- Eventually escape the tax and regulatory nightmare that currently is, and will grow exponentially, in our present state.
However, the parcels I am interested often have limited access one or more important elements. If I can tie to the power system, I will. I strongly suspect, based upon our power needs, and what I'm finding, we will have to, but it does not hurt to explore options.
With the exception of going completely off-grid power wise, I have done, and/or was involved with implementing all the systems listed in the original post at some point in my travels.
I haven't really investigated wind power much. I did a bit back when we lived our in the plains of Gilliam County where they have windmill farms. I'll do some digging on that too. Though I seem to recall the two negatives was it is highly dependent on location and there was, unsurprisingly, some red tape involved in setting one up.
Indeed, wells and related systems aren't cheap. I know that going in.
A whole-house generator will be going in regardless. After many years of kludges for frequent outages, we put in an auto-on Generac and thing is just a workhorse. It cannot, of course, be used for day-to-day operations.
Considering the locale, I am little concerned about wood as a heat source. I've had zero problem acquiring it on the wet side of the mountain (and normally harvest it from our own land now), nor really much trouble out east where things are a lot drier and barren. Still, it has me looking at alternatives.
The off-hand comment about Prius reminded me of something Tesla was working on that was basically a "plug'n'play" giant battery (fits in a closet) for home solar systems. I'm adding this to the list, because energy storage seems to be a big issue.
Regarding logistics, we got real good at that when living out in eastern Oregon, and keep plenty of supplies on hand. Ironically, one of the easy-peasy aspects of the land I was looking at is it is only a 20-minute drive to a decent sized town. That parcel, however, is looking less attractive, and I am now looking at some farther south for a number of reasons.

Anywho, thanks again. I've got some ideas on things to research and will be checking out some other land options later today.

CountryGent · Nov 28, 2018

It looks @ROC posted a message at the same time I was. Thank you for the details. That does sound interesting. And, yes, there are various incentive for home solar in that state.