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GOA wrote in their report that the "ATF has reached a point where it has converted nearly one billion records (required to be kept by FFLs) into a single, centralized, and searchable national gun registry, that is routinely searched by multiple data fields (except, reportedly, by gun owner name)."


 

ma96782

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i-m-from-the-government-i-m-here-to-help.png

interdasting.jpg

Aloha, Mark
 
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What a shocker. Ever listen to the FFL on the phone answering the questions for the BG check?
-Name
-SSN
-Firearm
-Caliber
-etc, etc….
Interesting. I'm always within earshot (right across the counter) of the call at my LGS, and all I've ever heard him say in reference to the firearm being purchased is either handgun or long gun. Been that way for as long as I can remember, up to and including a purchase I made last Saturday.
 
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It's difficult to say with any degree of certainty if the government keeps firearms purchaser's personal information longer than what is needed to verify an individual's eligibility to make the purchase.

But if one follows political events in the U.S. it is plain to see that even if a government agency breaks the law no individual will be held to account.

When government agency's outrightly lie I cannot recall any individual being held to account.

Government agency's, (and for the most part bureaucrats) can commit illegal acts with impunity.

Even if GOA is correct about BATF&E illegally keeping firearm purchaser's personal information for any other purpose than verifying the eligibility to make the purchase, not one damn thing will happen to anyone in the agency who gave the illegal order.

That's where we're at folks.
 
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It's difficult to say with any degree of certainty if the government keeps firearms purchaser's personal information longer than what is needed to verify an individual's eligibility to make the purchase.
As I have said before, I am certain they are collecting that data. It would be difficult for any org to wipe the data from their systems if they were going to do anything with it - such as running BGCs with the data.

After 30+ years as a dev, and another 7+ years in s/w QA, I know how data proliferates across computer systems. It would take a concerted effort resulting in a well designed and implemented software/data system, to take the data submitted for the BGC, then later wipe it from the systems of any non-trivial org. Given the incompetence of municipal and state orgs, I would say it is highly unlikely that they could accomplish the goal of removing any trace of that data from their systems, even if they wanted to - which I doubt they would (want to).

So, given that, I think it is safe to assume they have that data.

Federal systems where the orgs with they have a history of collecting data on everybody (NSA, FBI, ATF, now DHS including the DOJ), you can be certain they not only have the data, they have it collated, analyzed and combined with all the other data they have on citizens (financial, relationships {friends, relatives, etc.}, demographics of all sorts and so on).
 
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Agreed, they likely have the data. (Years ago I recall the NRA sueing at least one state to make them purge the data.)

Being a member of GOA I received the their email informing members of the lawsuit aganist the BATF&E. (And I applaud GOA for their efforts.)

But it is also likely that the government will fight and lie every step of the way,....And even if it's proven that they illegally kept firearms purchaser's personal data and a judge rules that they should purge the data, no one will be punished,......And, in the end, the data may not actually get purged anyway!

As I've said:
"Government agency's, (and for the most part bureaucrats) can commit illegal acts with impunity."

"Even if GOA is correct about BATF&E illegally keeping firearm purchaser's personal information for any other purpose than verifying the eligibility to make the purchase, not one damn thing will happen to anyone in the agency who gave the illegal order."

I understand the point that you are making but the greater question is how we actually fight an entity that is above the law?

I believe in the legal fight to the end for the sake of what is righteous,....even though we the people are likely to lose.

Example after example shows that, particularly our federal government, has run amuck.
 
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"Government agency's, (and for the most part bureaucrats) can commit illegal acts with impunity"
Yeah....
Just what do you think will/can change that???

Joe
Many of the historical figures that I admire most are those who have fought losing battles to the end.

That being said, we should legally fight the good fight trying to save our republic.

The answer to your question is that nothing can or will change the fact that our government is no longer accountable to "We the people."
 

EHJ

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All those photos of 4473's that the feds like to take...?
The 'new' form that places all info on the front page...?
All the easier to OCR everything into a database it seems.




 

SFischer22

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It's difficult to say with any degree of certainty if the government keeps firearms purchaser's personal information longer than what is needed to verify an individual's eligibility to make the purchase.

But if one follows political events in the U.S. it is plain to see that even if a government agency breaks the law no individual will be held to account.

When government agency's outrightly lie I cannot recall any individual being held to account.

Government agency's, (and for the most part bureaucrats) can commit illegal acts with impunity.

Even if GOA is correct about BATF&E illegally keeping firearm purchaser's personal information for any other purpose than verifying the eligibility to make the purchase, not one damn thing will happen to anyone in the agency who gave the illegal order.

That's where we're at folks.
Oh they do. About 10 years ago I got a call from the FBI about a S&W 9mm I had that I sold to a pawn shop up near Sea-Tac when I was in serious need of cash. The sale had occurred aprox. 20 years earlier. It was involved in a homicide and I got the call asking where I was and what, if anything had happened to the gun. So, 20 years later they still had the info to track me down.

About 3 years ago I got a call from the Chehalis Police Dept. saying the gun had been used in a robbery and would I like it back. Now...how in the hell did it go from being involved in a murder, and then a robbery, with NO ONE else between the original sale and me? I've got no idea. I did tell the officer the gun needed to be destroyed because the damn thing was cursed and I wanted nothing to do with it.

So yeah...they don't get rid of your info. EVER.
 
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Oh they do. About 10 years ago I got a call from the FBI about a S&W 9mm I had that I sold to a pawn shop up near Sea-Tac when I was in serious need of cash. The sale had occurred aprox. 20 years earlier. It was involved in a homicide and I got the call asking where I was and what, if anything had happened to the gun. So, 20 years later they still had the info to track me down.

About 3 years ago I got a call from the Chehalis Police Dept. saying the gun had been used in a robbery and would I like it back. Now...how in the hell did it go from being involved in a murder, and then a robbery, with NO ONE else between the original sale and me? I've got no idea. I did tell the officer the gun needed to be destroyed because the damn thing was cursed and I wanted nothing to do with it.

So yeah...they don't get rid of your info. EVER.
Thank you for mentioning your experience,...

I won't bore you with the debates that were involved in Congress regarding the so-called "Instant" Background Check system. It was emphasized in no uncertain terms that firearms purchaser's personal information was ONLY to be used to determine if that individual was legally qualified to make the purchase.

Upon approval the firearms purchaser's information was to be purged/disposed of in a reasonable amount of time.

So the fact that firearms purchaser's personal information has or is being kept is illegal under Federal Law. Yet I cannot find any record of ANY individual within a given government agency, (We're talking BATF&E here) being held to account for breaking Federal Law!

Given this, why is there any reason for optimism when we are discussing our Federal Bureaucracy?

Even law abiding citizens should be afraid of being targeted as defending yourself may well cost you everything that you have ever worked for in your life!
 
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Unfortunately for me I’m probably held in that system and I’m sure they know what I purchase. Some stuff in my past (no I’m not a felon and never have been, no I’ve never been arrested or charged with a felony or ANY crime that would ban me from owning firearms) all of a sudden started causing erroneous delays. Never a denial just delay. It got so bad that when purchasing I would have to almost always expect that I’m not coming back until the 10th business day to grab my item with still no response from the NICS check. It’s even hurt me on 1639 checks. One time I waited 2 months (filled out a second 4473 after 30 days when it expired, then when finally approved the second was expired so had to fill out another on the day I picked it up).

I dealt with it for like 2 years and finally got pissed for waiting ten days even if buying a lower or a lever gun or a shotgun. I filed for a UPIN and even in the paperwork it states something along the lines of “allowing the federal database to keep information on you to help erroneous / false delays”.

So yes I have a UPIN now and it works. Not instantly, however. I usually wait about 25-30 minutes before hearing an approval when someone else is like 5-10 minutes. On a weekend however, I don’t expect anything. The last 5 transfers I’ve done on a weekend have given me a “delay” and then I usually get a proceed Monday or Tuesday once a human gets their eyes on it and can bypass the delay. This is why usually I only do transfers or trades or whatever on weekdays.


Long story short, I’m sure they have me on file because I have a UPIN.
 
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Having read through to page 12 of 32, I think GOA misses a crucial point on the searchable database, that although the final form searchable database excludes the ability of a user to search by gun owner name or other PII, it doesn't preclude this information from being included in the results. That should be the most terrifying aspect we should be concerned about.

As a 20+ year veteran of IT, I'd be more than happy to sit as an expert witness for GOA if this ever makes it to trial, or even review the OBRIS system documentation should it ever be made available. For FREE.
 
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I think GOA misses a crucial point on the searchable database..., that although the final form searchable database excludes the ability of a user to search by gun owner name or other PII, it doesn't preclude this information from being included in the results.
I believe that's exactly the whole crux of the GOA's suit. A "registry" does not differentiate between a serial number associated with a name vs. a name associated with a serial number. It is unlawful for the government to maintain that associated data in the first place... searchable by a specific data field or not... it's still there, constitues a "registry" and is in violation of federal law.

The governments veiled argument being that if the gun owner name field seach option has been disabled, and not "intended" (at this time) to kick out results showing all firearms owned by a specific individual, it can not legally be defined as a "gun owner registry". It's mearly a serial number "forward search" database, hence, not a law violation.

A rose by any other name politicial maneuvering kind of BS.

It's all smoke and mirrors and their argument is moot anyway since there is no language on the federal books specifing "gun owner registry" in the first place.
 
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