Ghost gun definition appears to be misunderstood, Polymer 80's are not illegal IMO

[KKG]

They're not illegal until you have completed the receiver and failed to put a serial number on it. That is my opinion.

 

[Bushman]

They're not illegal until you have completed the receiver and failed to put a serial number on it. That is my opinion.

Read the laws I just posted, they are not illegal as long as you have a metal slide or barrel. The receiver is not defined as a firearm under state law in this context, and is specifically excluded as a firearm under federal law in this context. Read the actual post....

The serial number or lack thereof doesn't make it illegal, that's perfectly legal as long as you don't sell it as such.

The polymer receiver is also legal as long as you don't put a ceramic or other composite slide or barrel on it.

READ the post where I cited the actual state and federal laws....

 

[awshoot]

....
And as you noted, the fact that a Glock receiver does not have the 3.7 oz required (undetectable definition) but is still legal (not untraceable gun, that's different and still legal no serial) with a barrel and slide made of steel, further reinforces my belief that Polymer 80 receivers are not illegal in WA with a metal barrel or slide. I may hire an attorney to confirm this further.
...

80percenters are not illegal in WA (See Caveat) -- what is illegal is helping someone make an untraceable firearm. See here: https://app.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=9.41.325 It is legal to make an untraceable firearm IF you don't intend to sell it, see paragraph 1(d): https://app.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=9.41.190 The reason retailers won't sell 80%s to WA residents, is because if they don't do a BGC on the sale, and the person is prohibited, they run afoul of the first link above. That is NOT the same as making 80%ers contraband, but it makes it hard to buy them.

Caveat: ALL undetecable firearms are illegal under WA and Federal law. The 3.7oz thing is not a weight requirement, it is a metal detector capability requirement, as in "must be as detectable as 3.7 oz of some specific steel is by a metal detector used in airports" AND it it has to show up on xray machines that airports use to show the outline -- this xray requirement applies to the frame or receiver alone. Although formatted differently, the Federal and WA state laws on undectable firearms are the same, so if a P80 was illegal under WA law, it is also illegal under Federal law.

For the defintion of "undetectable" see:
WA, see paragraph 33: https://app.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=9.41.010
Federal law: 18 U.S. Code § 922 - Unlawful acts See (P)(1) and (2).

WA prohibition on undetectable firearms, paragraphs 1(a) and (b): https://app.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=9.41.190

 

[awshoot]

Untraceable is different than undetectable. The first one is still legal for personal use. The second is as well as long as you use a metal slide and barrel IMO based on the laws I posted.
...

Untraceable is legal if not made to sell. Undetectable are ALWAYS illegal, federally and stately. Undetecable is a two part test -- metal detector and Xray. Adding a slide passes the metal detector, but fails the Xray, and such a gun would be a crime. The Federal Law I linked in the post above says this with respect to the Xray requirement (different from the metal detector requirement):

(B) the term "major component" means, with respect to a firearm, the barrel, the slide or cylinder, or the frame or receiver of the firearm; and

Each of those three categories must independently pass the Xray test to not be undetectable. Adding an Xray detetecable slide to an Xray UNdetectable frame, fails to meet the law and the gun is illegal.

WA law does the same thing as Federal law:

... or any firearm where the barrel, the slide or cylinder, or the frame or receiver of the firearm would not generate an image that accurately depicts the shape of the part when examined by the types of X-ray machines commonly used at airports.

SO -- adding a slide to an Xray invisible lower would pass the metal detector test, but fail the Xray test, and the gun would be undetectable and a crime to possess.

 

[awshoot]

They're not illegal until you have completed the receiver and failed to put a serial number on it. That is my opinion.

This is not correct -- it is expressly legal to make an untraceable gun IF you don't intend to sell it. https://app.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=9.41.190

(1) Except as otherwise provided in this section, it is unlawful for any person to:
...
(d) Manufacture an untraceable firearm with the intent to sell the untraceable firearm.

 

[awshoot]

Here''s how I think about the rules around DIY firearms:

 

[Bushman]

Here''s how I think about the rules around DIY firearms:

View attachment 766627

Wow that is awesome and accurate, where did you find that?

 

[Bushman]

Untraceable is legal if not made to sell. Undetectable are ALWAYS illegal, federally and stately. Undetecable is a two part test -- metal detector and Xray. Adding a slide passes the metal detector, but fails the Xray, and such a gun would be a crime. The Federal Law I linked in the post above says this with respect to the Xray requirement (different from the metal detector requirement):



Each of those three categories must independently pass the Xray test to not be undetectable. Adding an Xray detetecable slide to an Xray UNdetectable frame, fails to meet the law and the gun is illegal.

WA law does the same thing as Federal law:


SO -- adding a slide to an Xray invisible lower would pass the metal detector test, but fail the Xray test, and the gun would be undetectable and a crime to possess.

Yes, I was pointing out to him the difference between untraceable that he posted about vs the undetectable that I posted about. Both are lega with caveats as long as not intended to sell.

The part you posted about WA is the same part that I posted in my OP. The only difference between WA law and federal law is that Federal law explicitly notes that a receiver is not considered a firearm for that subsection.

WA doesn't say that explicitly, and their verbiage about barrel OR slide OR cylinder OR frame is a little weird and does follow federal law, it could be interpreted as ANY of these components individually (or, or, or) but the definition of a gun or firearm in WA is that it can fire a projectile with an explosive such as gun powder. Since the frame itself can't do that and you have to have all of the components of a gun to fire a projectile, I believe that even though they didn't explicitly exclude receivers as being counted as a firearm, the law itself does so and the or or or or is just a poorly copied copy of the federal law.

The diagram you posted is accurate and matches the laws I posted and my interpretation of them.
I'm amazed there is so much misinformation about the P 80 lowers, they are perfectly legal here so long as you don't put a non metallic slide and barrel on them, etc.

 

[turbo_vanner]

I really dont worry about it. I dont think a forest service cop is going to field strip any of my 80%s and whip out a scale to weight the metal.

 

[awshoot]

Wow that is awesome and accurate, where did you find that?

LOL -- made it at lunch. I had some work I didn't want to do so I did that to procrastinate.

 

[Flopsweat]

Is there a legal opinion published anywhere about this? I doubt our wonderful AG has weighted in but has anyone else?

 

[awshoot]

Yes, I was pointing out to him the difference between untraceable that he posted about vs the undetectable that I posted about. ....

Yeah -- I'm sure you got it down. The only part that worried me was the bit about adding a slide to an Xray invisible frame -- anyway -- I did that thing of responding while going through rather than waiting til the end. But ... I was procrastinating and so I needed something to procrastinate about!

 

[awshoot]

Is there a legal opinion published anywhere about this? I doubt our wonderful AG has weighted in but has anyone else?

Nope. Not so far as I'm aware. For me it's all just my reading of the statutory language. So it's definitely the sort of thing you'd want to check out with a non-random-internet-person.

 

[awshoot]

I really dont worry about it. I dont think a forest service cop is going to field strip any of my 80%s and whip out a scale to weight the metal.

They won't for two reasons: A) the metal detector test applies to the whole complete firearm, not just the receiver, and B) the weight of any particular part is not relevant, the whole assembled firearm just has to have enough metal so that is as easy to detect as 3.7 oz of a certain type of stainless steel. If a certain metal is as detectable when it weighs 2oz, then it passes. If it requires 5 oz to be as detectable, then it wouldn't be legal at 3.7 oz.

 

[Ruger Rich]

Another kick azz thread . . . . .

 

[Kruel J]

Another kick azz thread . . . . .

Good stuff, but I wish members wouldn't start a thread then edit it after others post their thoughts. The OP and even the title are nothing like they were when it was originally started.

 

[Ruger Rich]

Good stuff, but I wish members wouldn't start a thread then edit it after others post their thoughts. The OP and even the title are nothing like they were when it was originally started.

And I agree. But still above average

 

[Kruel J]

And I agree. But still above average

Definitely a good one.

 

[awshoot]

Maybe it's my personal reading history here, but the title seemed right on to me. There's some dude selling P80 frames in the classifieds who said it is illegal for WA residents to have them. Which is flat wrong. It's just problematic for sellers to sell them (unless it doesn't show on Xray, then yes, it is illegal to have in WA ... and the rest of the USA as well). So anyway, the title of the thread makes a lot of sense to me.

....
The States of New Jersey, Washington, or District of Columbia prohibits ownership of all receiver blanks & 80% products.
...

 

[Bushman]

Good stuff, but I wish members wouldn't start a thread then edit it after others post their thoughts. The OP and even the title are nothing like they were when it was originally started.

I originally posted it as a question but as I kept adding more legal statutes to the post I realized there really was no need for discussion, the statutes are pretty clear.

And my note about the law not being interpreted correctly (they won't ship here) and how the law surely means what I think it means considering federal and state law don't define the receiver as a firearm by itself for THIS context, then comparing it to a Glock receiver for confirmation, as in, if this law meant this was illegal here, then the Glock receiver by itself would be illegal. But federal and state law clearly define the complete gun as a firearm in this context. WA doesn't explicitly note the receiver is not a firearm in this context, but the definitions of the states RCW for a firearm states that it has to be capable of firing a projectile by means of an explosion such as with gun powder. A receiver by itself can't do that, so it's a complete firearm, not the sum of it's parts that make it a firearm for the purpose of this statute.

So I posed it as a question of, is it just me or did people misread and misinterpret this, then realized as I read more statutes at the federal level, that there is no question, it's a statement post. I was just trying to spread the word. Many people think these are illegal in WA now (most companies won't ship here) but they actually aren't.