Ghost gun definition appears to be misunderstood, Polymer 80's are not illegal IMO

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For example, the Glock pistols, do they have the requisite 3.7 oz of metal in the receiver or do they go by the whole gun with barrel and slide?


Under federal law, any gun that has less than 3.7oz of metal is an illegal ghost gun. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Undetectable_Firearms_Act

But yet Polymer 80 kits are sold everywhere other than states like WA that has banned them. But the way I read the state law is that the entire gun, barrel and all is considered the firearm, not just the receiver. So theoretically as long as your slide and barrel are steel, it's not a ghost gun? I would think that's the case. Even under federal law. Why else even allow the sale of the kits when they are obviously intended to be converted into "ghost guns"? I don't think the Glock Receiver has 3.7 oz of metal when you factor it to a ghost gun 1:1.

Of particular note, an object is not an undetectable firearm or untraceable firearm unless it is first a firearm under state definition RCW 9.41.010 (11) and lowers do not meet that definition. Thus the undetectable and untraceable definitions don't kick in until the gun is complete with barrel and action, and they apply to the gun as a whole not the lower by itself.

https://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=9.41.010


(33) "Undetectable firearm" means any firearm that is not as detectable as 3.7 ounces of 17-4 PH stainless steel by walk-through metal detectors or magnetometers commonly used at airports or any firearm where the barrel, the slide or cylinder, or the frame or receiver of the firearm would not generate an image that accurately depicts the shape of the part when examined by the types of X-ray machines commonly used at airports.



(11) "Firearm" means a weapon or device from which a projectile or projectiles may be fired by an explosive such as gunpowder. "Firearm" does not include a flare gun or other pyrotechnic visual distress signaling device, or a powder-actuated tool or other device designed solely to be used for construction purposes.
(12) "Gun" has the same meaning as firearm.



This attorney breaks it down further:


The undetectable statute is listed in its’ entirety below but for comparison to the definition of a firearm receiver already in the Gun Control Act, the pertinent parts are here: Title 18, U.S.C., Chapter 44, Section 922 (p)(1) It shall be unlawful for any person to manufacture, import, sell, ship, deliver, possess, transfer, or receive any firearm–

(A) that, after removal of grips, stocks, and magazines, is not as

detectable as the Security Exemplar, by walk-through metal detectors calibrated and operated to detect the Security Exemplar; or

(B) any major component of which, when subjected to inspection by the types of x-ray machines commonly used at airports, does not generate an image that accurately depicts the shape of the component. Barium sulfate or other compounds may be used in the fabrication of the component.

(2) For purposes of this subsection –

(A) the term “firearm” does not include the frame or receiver of any such weapon;

(B) the term “major component” means, with respect to a firearm, the barrel, the slide or cylinder, or the frame or receiver of the firearm; and …
 
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The receiver is the transferable part, but the amount of metal is for the whole firearm. "Ghost gun" is generally not a term used for guns that can get past metal detectors but used for guns that aren't serialized such as P80s made at home for educational purposes. Glocks do not have 3.7 ounces of metal in the lower, neither do many polymer framed pistols.

When buying a stripped AR lower, it's marked as "receiver" on a 4473. Not firearm. You are kinda talking about two different things here. And in your bolded statement you kinda answer your own question. Maybe I'm misunderstanding you here?
 
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So under federal and state law, the receiver itself in the context of a polymer 80 or similar is not considered an untraceable firearm by itself. It has the be a "gun/firearm" capable of firing a projectile.

A receiver by itself is not capable of that. A receiver with a steel barrel and slide is.

The way I read it, a gun with a steel barrel, slide and polymer 80 lower is perfectly legal under federal and state law.
 

The Heretic

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By federal law, the "80%" guns are not firearms until they get past that not defined "80%" (not a term the ATF uses), and even after being finished into a firearm, they are not illegal by federal law. Some locales have restricted/banned them, but not federal law - yet (my guess is that when, not if, Biden wins, 80% guns will be one of the items the left goes after).
 
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The receiver is the transferable part, but the amount of metal is for the whole firearm. "Ghost gun" is generally not a term used for guns that can get past metal detectors but used for guns that aren't serialized such as P80s made at home for educational purposes. Glocks do not have 3.7 ounces of metal in the lower, neither do many polymer framed pistols.

When buying a stripped AR lower, it's marked as "receiver" on a 4473. Not firearm. You are kinda talking about two different things here. And in your bolded statement you kinda answer your own question. Maybe I'm misunderstanding you here?

Right, that's what I figured about Glocks. When you consider they are legal in WA and the US, and read the actual federal and state law definitions of what constitutes a gun or a ghost gun, Polymer 80 lowers are just as legal as Glock lowers alone, and legal also with a steel barrel and slide per the references I posted above.

Considering a Glock receiver also does not have 3.7 oz of metal just like the P80, that would mean to me sure fire proof that the interpretation of the law based on the state and federal statutes is correct, otherwise Glock's would be considered Ghost Guns even in WA since the receiver alone doesn't have 3.7 oz of metal.
 
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By federal law, the "80%" guns are not firearms until they get past that not defined "80%" (not a term the ATF uses), and even after being finished into a firearm, they are not illegal by federal law. Some locales have restricted/banned them, but not federal law - yet (my guess is that when, not if, Biden wins, 80% guns will be one of the items the left goes after).

Yup.

Seems like the same for WA law per the definitions. A gun or firearm isn't just the receiver, it has to be capable of firing a projectile by an explosive such as with gun powder.

Federal law explicitly states the receiver does not count for this purpose. Other than that WA law is written exactly the same in that it has to be capable of firing a projectile with an explosive like gun powder, and takes into account the barrel, slide, cylinder or slide.
 
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The receiver is the transferable part, but the amount of metal is for the whole firearm. "Ghost gun" is generally not a term used for guns that can get past metal detectors but used for guns that aren't serialized such as P80s made at home for educational purposes. Glocks do not have 3.7 ounces of metal in the lower, neither do many polymer framed pistols.

When buying a stripped AR lower, it's marked as "receiver" on a 4473. Not firearm. You are kinda talking about two different things here. And in your bolded statement you kinda answer your own question. Maybe I'm misunderstanding you here?

The laws I cited apply to AR receivers AND pistol receivers. Read what I posted, the receiver of an AR or Pistol is not considered a firearm in the context of ghost guns under federal or WA law.
 
The laws I cited apply to AR receivers AND pistol receivers. Read what I posted, the receiver of an AR or Pistol is not considered a firearm in the context of ghost guns under federal or WA law.
Yes, I am aware. You're original thread title and post content was a question and I was trying to help clarify. You have since edited both.
 
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Yes, I am aware. You're original thread title and post content was a question and I was trying to help clarify. You have since edited both.
I added more legal citations for federal and state law. The premise of the body of the message is the same. I just edited the title to reflect that overall opinion of the post since the laws I read already told me what I need to know, I was just sharing this to inform other members at this point. The context and purpose of it is the same: under federal and state law, the receiver is not considered a firearm by itself (though somehow it is in general cases, but even then I read several rulings throughout the country that challenges the receiver being a firearm and those cases were dismissed).

And as you noted, the fact that a Glock receiver does not have the 3.7 oz required (undetectable definition) but is still legal (not untraceable gun, that's different and still legal no serial) with a barrel and slide made of steel, further reinforces my belief that Polymer 80 receivers are not illegal in WA with a metal barrel or slide. I may hire an attorney to confirm this further.

It really is amazing how different districts interpret laws differently. In the cases where normal AR receivers (not the context of this thread) were possessed by felons, judges threw the cases out citing that despite the ATF ruling them as a firearm, and people being convicted by that definition, doesn't mean their opinion isn't subject to scrutiny in THEIR court.

And it makes sense. You can't call a knife a knife because it has a handle and locking mechanism but no blade. An overly simplified comparison, but you get the idea.
 
I added more legal citations for federal and state law. The premise of the body of the message is the same. I just edited the title to reflect that overall opinion of the post. The context and purpose of it is the same: under federal and state law, the receiver is not considered a firearm by itself (though somehow it is in general cases, but even then I read several rulings throughout the country that challenges the receiver being a firearm and those cases were dismissed).

It really is amazing how different districts interpret laws differently. In the cases where normal AR receivers (not the context of this thread) were possessed by felons, judges threw the cases out citing that despite the ATF ruling them as a firearm, and people being convicted by that definition, doesn't mean their opinion isn't subject to scrutiny in THEIR court.

And it makes sense. You can't call a knife a knife because it has a handle and locking mechanism but no blade. An overly simplified comparison, but you get the idea.
The laws stink. And the people that make them. And the fools that voted them in office.
 
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But yet Polymer 80 kits are sold everywhere other than states like WA that has banned them.

@Bushman correct me if I'm wrong but Washington hasn't banned 80% receivers or frames. What Washington has done is set up a legal definition for "Untraceable Firearms" (see below) and make it illegal for someone to aid a person prohibited from owning a firearm in the manufacturer or assembly of an untraceable firearm(see full wording below). So the actual act of building an 80% firearm isn't illegal in Washington, the law just puts those selling the kits at risk. Because of this many online retailers have stopped shipping to Washington, but I've seen some that still do. I've also seen some local Washington gun stores still selling kits but haven't checked if they are requiring background checks.

“Untraceable firearm” means any firearm manufactured after July 1, 2019, that is not an antique firearm and that cannot be traced by law enforcement by means of a serial number affixed to the firearm by a federally licensed manufacturer or importer.

(1) No person may knowingly or recklessly allow, facilitate, aid, or abet the manufacture or assembly of an undetectable firearm or untraceable firearm by a person who: (a) Is ineligible under state or federal law to possess a firearm; or (b) has signed a valid voluntary waiver of firearm rights that has not been revoked under RCW 9.41.350. For purposes of this provision, the failure to conduct a background check as provided in RCW 9.41.113 shall be prima facie evidence of recklessness.
 
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We all know how criminals follow gun laws anyways...:rolleyes:

Just glad that this stupid law is just misinterpreted by most, the receivers are not illegal in WA, converted or unconverted, based on the laws I read/posted.
 
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@Bushman correct me if I'm wrong but Washington hasn't banned 80% receivers or frames. What Washington has done is set up a legal definition for "Untraceable Firearms" (see below) and make it illegal for someone to aid a person prohibited from owning a firearm in the manufacturer or assembly of an untraceable firearm(see full wording below). So the actual act of building an 80% firearm isn't illegal in Washington, the law just puts those selling the kits at risk. Because of this many online retailers have stopped shipping to Washington, but I've seen some that still do. I've also seen some local Washington gun stores still selling kits but haven't checked if they are requiring background checks.

“Untraceable firearm” means any firearm manufactured after July 1, 2019, that is not an antique firearm and that cannot be traced by law enforcement by means of a serial number affixed to the firearm by a federally licensed manufacturer or importer.

(1) No person may knowingly or recklessly allow, facilitate, aid, or abet the manufacture or assembly of an undetectable firearm or untraceable firearm by a person who: (a) Is ineligible under state or federal law to possess a firearm; or (b) has signed a valid voluntary waiver of firearm rights that has not been revoked under RCW 9.41.350. For purposes of this provision, the failure to conduct a background check as provided in RCW 9.41.113 shall be prima facie evidence of recklessness.

Untraceable is different than undetectable. The first one is still legal for personal use. The second is as well as long as you use a metal slide and barrel IMO based on the laws I posted.

Read more here about the difference between the two.

 
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Expecting government, laws, politicians, courts, and judges to make sense and follow logic is a fallacy. Keeping it confusing is part of their agenda so they remain relevant, necessary, and in power.

Yup. The only people you can rule are criminals and dependents. They pledge allegiance, to socialism, with welfare and probation for all, one nation, in jail...
 

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