Gabbie: A gun almost murdered me

[The Heretic]

If you think attacking the victim of a deranged shooter is going to help our cause, then you are not thinking rationally yourself.

As I said, attack the message, not the messenger

 

[XManSV]

I am being realistic.

She was a politician.

Almost all politicians lie.

Almost all politicians "go with the flow"; if their constituents want them to ban guns, they generally will advocate banning guns.

They are not seeking office because they want to uphold and defend the Constitution, they are in office because they want power, money and to control other people's lives.

The sooner you accept that, the sooner you will understand why politicians act the way that they do, whether they are in or out of office.

The possible exception to those rules are Libertarians. Unfortunately, most people don't want to hear the truth, so they don't like Libertarians, and they don't vote for them.

In the empire of lies, the truth is treason.

OK, all entirely possible. And I'll insult, ridicule, argue against and fight them. You want to accept that's your free choice.

 

[XManSV]

If you think attacking the victim of a deranged shooter is going to help our cause, then you are not thinking rationally yourself.

As I said, attack the message, not the messenger

If you think it's ok to rationalize or otherwise justify betraying an oath to uphold and defend, then I guess that speaks for itself. I don't.

 

[The Heretic]

OK, all entirely possible. And I'll insult, ridicule, argue against and fight them. You want to accept that's your free choice.

I am not accepting her message. I am advocating using effective tactics to respond, not ineffective counter-productive tactics that do more harm than good.

But if you want to come across to the undecided and opposing factions as an ignorant and misogynistic anal orifice, then go ahead and insult her - just stand over there away from me while you are doing it.

Otherwise you are just preaching to the choir as those are the people who will agree with you. We all agree that we disagree with anti-gun advocates, but they are not all bad people - many are just misguided and emotional. It doesn't help to insult them, especially when they have been victims of violence - it just makes them look more the victim and us look more like arrogant uncaring anal orifices.

Remember, people don't think - they react emotionally. Who do you think they are going to have more empathy for? A victim of a violent crime, or some guy acting like an ***hat heaping insults on her?

 

[XManSV]

She stood on the house of representatives floor of our country swore to uphold and defend the constitution, then in my opinion, betrayed that oath. I have limits, that crosses my limits. Maybe it does not cross yours. That is your choice.

Feel free to have the last word...

 

[The Heretic]

If you think it's ok to rationalize or otherwise justify betraying an oath to uphold and defend, then I guess that speaks for itself. I don't.

I didn't say it was okay - now you are trying to put words in my mouth.

I said it is realistic to expect that of politicians; they are liars who are out for power, money and prestige. They exploit the fact that most people want to hear the lies they believe in, in order to get elected. If you don't understand that, then you are one of the poor naive voters who will keep voting for the politician that tells you the lies you want to hear.

Stop expecting them to tell the truth. That oath that means so much to those of us with integrity means nothing to them. Nothing. Get that into your head. They are different. They are NOT leaders - they are politicians. The sooner you understand that and act accordingly, the sooner you will understand why politicians do what they do.

 

[Ura-Ki]

Politicians are like Hollywood actors, And bad ones at that! They are constantly switching rolls to fit the day's seen, most don't know who they really are any more! At one time, Gabby was a nice lady, with honest intentions of public service, she had the right ideas, hopes and dreams of things she thought she could accomplish in her term! Like many, she actually cared about what she was trying to do, and she really wanted to make a difference for all in her state. Over time, she learned the hard truths of public office, in order to get things done, you have to sell out! Many have few problems becoming the whores public service makes them into, others like poor Gabby have to suffer a crises of conscious before they come to terms with what they have become! It takes a person of immovable moral character to serve with out compromising there high standards! Gabby WAS just such a person, UNTIL some mentally unhinged person almost ended her life! Imagine the pain and suffering that woman went through, and is still experiencing. How would you respond? Now put your self in her stylish shoes, a public servant, loved by the community she swore to serve, shot through the head, damn near killed, and now living with sever mental anguish, not to mention sever brain damage, and limited motor functions! It will take time, and some kindly words from a few concerned people to help set her back on the true path! That is all we can hope for!

 

[XManSV]

Politicians are like Hollywood actors, And bad ones at that! They are constantly switching rolls to fit the day's seen, most don't know who they really are any more! At one time, Gabby was a nice lady, with honest intentions of public service, she had the right ideas, hopes and dreams of things she thought she could accomplish in her term! Like many, she actually cared about what she was trying to do, and she really wanted to make a difference for all in her state. Over time, she learned the hard truths of public office, in order to get things done, you have to sell out! Many have few problems becoming the whores public service makes them into, others like poor Gabby have to suffer a crises of conscious before they come to terms with what they have become! It takes a person of immovable moral character to serve with out compromising there high standards! Gabby WAS just such a person, UNTIL some mentally unhinged person almost ended her life! Imagine the pain and suffering that woman went through, and is still experiencing. How would you respond? Now put your self in her stylish shoes, a public servant, loved by the community she swore to serve, shot through the head, damn near killed, and now living with sever mental anguish, not to mention sever brain damage, and limited motor functions! It will take time, and some kindly words from a few concerned people to help set her back on the true path! That is all we can hope for!

Nicely said. Sorry, to me knowing that you swore an oath is a very very simple thing. You either keep it or you don't.

 

[Ura-Ki]

Unfortunately, a lot of very important people swear an Oath that they have no intention of ever keeping! I have no idea if Gabby still remembers her oath, but maybe a nice letter to her would serve as a reminder of that! Her Husband also swore and Oath, the same Oath I swore so many years ago, I am compelled to uphold my oath to my dying breath, I would have assumed he would as well, but people change, and things outside there control can forever change how they see things! If it matters to you, it offends you enough, send a hand written letter to her and the Space Man, explain why you feel what she says and is doing is wrong, and goes against every thing the two of them swore oaths to! Other then that, a pointlessness has consumed this thread!

 

[XManSV]

Unfortunately, a lot of very important people swear an Oath that they have no intention of ever keeping! I have no idea if Gabby still remembers her oath, but maybe a nice letter to her would serve as a reminder of that! Her Husband also swore and Oath, the same Oath I swore so many years ago, I am compelled to uphold my oath to my dying breath, I would have assumed he would as well, but people change, and things outside there control can forever change how they see things! If it matters to you, it offends you enough, send a hand written letter to her and the Space Man, explain why you feel what she says and is doing is wrong, and goes against every thing the two of them swore oaths to! Other then that, a pointlessness has consumed this thread!

They remember, they don't need me to remind them. The point was just to chat with you fine pro 2A rights patriots, regardless of how confused myself or others may be.

 

[The Heretic]

Nicely said. Sorry, to me knowing that you swore an oath is a very very simple thing. You either keep it or you don't.

Name a politician that is alive, in office or out of office, who has served in public office, that hasn't voted for a law that is unconstitutional.

There are very few. The only ones I can think of that even come close, are Libertarian.

Anyone who voted for the Patriot Act, to continue it, or any of the laws like that - voted for an unconstitutional law.

Anyone who voted for any law that in any way restricts our Second Amendment rights - voted for an unconstitutional law.

Anyone who voted to for the so called "marriage protection" laws (restricting who can marry whom) voted for an unconstitutional law.

Anyone who voted for laws that put made the ownership of any drug illegal, voted for an unconstitutional law.

I could go on and on. There are a LOT of laws on the books that are unconstitutional, despite what SCOTUS declares them to be, and somebody, somewhere, voted for them.

Very few politicians didn't vote for at least one unconstitutional law - I am not sure there is one alive that hasn't. This started from the outset. One of the first things some of the Founding Fathers did was pass an "anti-sedition" law making it illegal to criticize the government, and then they proceeded to muzzle newspapers and put people in jail, so don't think this is something new.

 

[XManSV]

Name a politician that is alive, in office or out of office, who has served in public office, that hasn't voted for a law that is unconstitutional.

There are very few. The only ones I can think of that even come close, are Libertarian.

Anyone who voted for the Patriot Act, to continue it, or any of the laws like that - voted for an unconstitutional law.

Anyone who voted for any law that in any way restricts our Second Amendment rights - voted for an unconstitutional law.

Anyone who voted to for the so called "marriage protection" laws (restricting who can marry whom) voted for an unconstitutional law.

Anyone who voted for laws that put made the ownership of any drug illegal, voted for an unconstitutional law.

I could go on and on. There are a LOT of laws on the books that are unconstitutional, despite what SCOTUS declares them to be, and somebody, somewhere, voted for them.

Very few politicians didn't vote for at least one unconstitutional law - I am not sure there is one alive that hasn't. This started from the outset. One of the first things some of the Founding Fathers did was pass an "anti-sedition" law making it illegal to criticize the government, and then they proceeded to muzzle newspapers and put people in jail, so don't think this is something new.

I'm sorry, I disagree that everything is negotiable. I think there are some things that are absolutes. If someone swore and oath then broke it, as far as I am concerned they have sacrificed their honor. Please, tell me, are there any principles you believe there is no exception for?

 

[The Heretic]

I'm sorry, I disagree that everything is negotiable. I think there are some things that are absolutes. If someone swore and oath then broke it, as far as I am concerned they have sacrificed their honor. Please, tell me, are there any principles you believe there is no exception for?

Either you are purposely misconstruing my assertions, or you are totally missing the point I am trying to make.

You keep talking about oaths and integrity, as if that means that everybody shares your point of view, including power hungry lying politicians. They don't - especially the politicians.

I place just as much or more value on integrity and honesty as you do. I was also at one time just as naive as you seem to be in assuming that every one else shared my values too.

Then I observed that I was wrong. If nothing else, most people lie to themselves. It takes a very strong and determined person to understand that fact, to challenge everything you believe and to seek the truth, no matter how much it hurts. To think rationally and objectively because it is the only way to arrive at the facts.

So yes, if someone swears an oath and breaks it, they have sacrificed their integrity. I just got through making post after post after post telling you that! But apparently the only thing you heard was somehow interpreted as me lauding them for doing that. Not sure how you arrived at that conclusion when all I have said is that I am being realistic about their nature.

I at no point said I admired them for what they do. I called them liars. Power greedy. Two faced. Wishy washy. Whatever. And somehow you took that as a compliment?

Come on!

Stop trying to put words in my mouth and twisting what I am saying. It is getting a bit tiresome.

 

[XManSV]

Either you are purposely misconstruing my assertions, or you are totally missing the point I am trying to make.

You keep talking about oaths and integrity, as if that means that everybody shares your point of view, including power hungry lying politicians. They don't - especially the politicians.

I place just as much or more value on integrity and honesty as you do. I was also at one time just as naive as you seem to be in assuming that every one else shared my values too.

Then I observed that I was wrong. If nothing else, most people lie to themselves. It takes a very strong and determined person to understand that fact, to challenge everything you believe and to seek the truth, no matter how much it hurts. To think rationally and objectively because it is the only way to arrive at the facts.

So yes, if someone swears an oath and breaks it, they have sacrificed their integrity. I just got through making post after post after post telling you that! But apparently the only thing you heard was somehow interpreted as me lauding them for doing that. Not sure how you arrived at that conclusion when all I have said is that I am being realistic about their nature.

I at no point said I admired them for what they do. I called them liars. Power greedy. Two faced. Wishy washy. Whatever. And somehow you took that as a compliment?

Come on!

Stop trying to put words in my mouth and twisting what I am saying. It is getting a bit tiresome.

Huh I thought you started out going on about cutting her a break and understanding how she might feel that way etc. I'm sorry, not sure what the problem is but your position seems to be moving. Do you hold them to their word or not? If you do, what does that mean, nothing, something? I swear, I've been pretty steadfast in my position, but it seems like yours moves around from post to post.

Please clarify, are they responsible to uphold their oath or not? If so, and they have not, are you holding them accountable or having understanding or saying they all do it so....something... or what? Can you state a clear position???

 

[The Heretic]

Huh I thought you started out going on about cutting her a break and understanding how she might feel that way etc. I'm sorry, not sure what the problem is but your position seems to be moving. Do you hold them to their word or not? If you do, what does that mean, nothing, something? I swear, I've been pretty steadfast in my position, but it seems like yours moves around from post to post.

Please clarify, are they responsible to uphold their oath or not? If so, and they have not, are you holding them accountable or having understanding or saying they all do it so....something... or what? Can you state a clear position???

Just to be clear, I think most, if not all politicians are scum who take advantage of the populace by exploiting their gullibility in their quest for power. They know better, the populace has yet to learn.

As for Ms. Giffords, I said her behavior was not out of character and it was simple human nature; she was a victim of a violent crime, and it is simple human nature to react emotionally to the violence. Most people do.

If it isn't clear, I thin most people are idiots. That doesn't mean I think they are bad people, just idiots. I know a lot of people, including close family, who believe idiotic things. I know very few people I admire, whom I trust, whom I think have integrity (especially in the face of adversity, whom I think have wisdom (which is different from intelligence). Of those people, even fewer have the capability to have a consistently rational world view.

Part of being rational is the ability to see the truth when faced with it. Part of that is accepting human nature for what it is - human nature. Understanding that most people act emotionally most of the time. Very few think rationally some of the time and nobody, nobody, acts rationally all of the time - nobody.

So yes, I can understand her actions, although I certainly don't agree with them.

MORE TO THE POINT - I said that it does our cause more harm than good (actually much more harm than good) to attack her when she is seen at the victim by most people. To do so simply makes the attacker come off looking like an anal orifice, and since it does no good, and does more harm than good, insisting on attacking her in that manner simply does make the attacker an anal orifice, since it harms our cause and does no real good just to make the attacker feel superior.

I can feel empathy/sympathy for a victim of a violent crime without agreeing with that victim's emotional reaction to the crime. If you can't, then at least restrain yourself by realizing that every time you attack her you hurt the cause of protecting/advocating for our rights.

As for responsibilities. In an ideal world, every person would be responsible for their own actions. I take responsibility very seriously, both when I am responsible for something and when I am not. I wish everyone also took their responsibilities as seriously as I do.

Unfortunately, we don't live in that fantasy world. Increasingly, fewer and fewer people want to be responsible for their own actions and circumstances. Increasingly, they want to hold others responsible for their actions because it is easier for them to do so. Politicians exploit this flaw in human nature because it gives them more power; people not only want to hold others responsible, they want the government to assist them in holding others responsible.

This is the world we live in. This has always been part of human nature, but it has been an increasing problem because as we increase our standard of living, that brings with it greater wealth and power, and there are people out there greedy for that wealth and power, who are more than just willing to exploit that flaw in human nature, while becoming increasingly sophisticated and skilled at doing so.

So I am saying yes, you can pretty much forget about holding people responsible for anything. Most simply will not want to hear it, to one degree or another, because it is jsut easier to not hear it, to not agree. Humans are by nature lazy. On the one hand, that has brought us a lot of cool technology, start with fire and the wheel to interplanetary travel. On the other hand, it will be our downfall.

In case it isn't clear - I am not admiring human nature, I am critiquing it. I am in the least being cynical and realistic. If you can't see the nature of the problem, you can't fight against it. Stop thinking that politicians are "public servants". They are not. They are people who see an opportunity to exploit the naivete of the populace in order to gain power, prestige and money for themselves. They are among the lowest of the low.

Conversely, we only have ourselves to blame. We vote for them because they tell us the lies we want to hear. Right or left - two heads of the same snake, just pandering to a different set of lies, taking turns at the wheel.

Simply put - life isn't so simple as insisting that people uphold their "honor" - they won't. They will lie to your face. They will lie to themselves while lying to your face, and then blame you for the outcome. Don't expect people to live by your standards and you won't be disappointed. Try to understand human nature. You don't have to agree with it, you just have to understand it.

I have a pretty simple algorithm that works more often than not; I think of what I would do, then I expect the opposite of most people.

YMMV. Good luck. I need to get sleep and I don't care to explain it any further. If you don't get it by now anything more I can say isn't going to help.

 

[XManSV]

life isn't so simple as insisting that people uphold their "honor" - they won't

Sorry, again, if you "swear an oath", I expect you to keep it. Perhaps many won't. I don't give a F, I still expect it. Kind of pointless to even bother with it to begin with if you don't.

 

[Ura-Ki]

The point here is not that some one can be counted on to uphold the words they said, promising something to some body, the true nature of a human being is there actions, not mere words alluding to the potential of actions! Human nature is a complex set of ever changing rules we choose to live by, We are lazy, arrogant, selfish, and self serving, so why does it offend you when some one in public acts out in any one of these traits? You are fixated by this notion of some sacred Oath! I wonder if you have ever taken an Oath, and if you have ever been called to uphold that Oath? You expect a political figure to have any honor, some one who has forsaken what ever they were to take and hold a political position of power for profit! Knowing that You still believe in the falsehood of some old fashioned words spoken out of nothing but formality, and you expect them to keep there word? I am sorry to tell you, but that world is long gone my friend, and nothing will bring honor back to these people, they them selves have forsaken it, for Money!

 

[XManSV]

The point here is not that some one can be counted on to uphold the words they said, promising something to some body, the true nature of a human being is there actions, not mere words alluding to the potential of actions! Human nature is a complex set of ever changing rules we choose to live by, We are lazy, arrogant, selfish, and self serving, so why does it offend you when some one in public acts out in any one of these traits? You are fixated by this notion of some sacred Oath! I wonder if you have ever taken an Oath, and if you have ever been called to uphold that Oath? You expect a political figure to have any honor, some one who has forsaken what ever they were to take and hold a political position of power for profit! Knowing that You still believe in the falsehood of some old fashioned words spoken out of nothing but formality, and you expect them to keep there word? I am sorry to tell you, but that world is long gone my friend, and nothing will bring honor back to these people, they them selves have forsaken it, for Money!

Of course its their actions, their actions demonstarting if they have any integrity or not, like keeping their word. Think what you will, I don't think what you described is ok. I think honor and integrity and keeping your word are more important now then they ever were. Letting go of principles like that is one big reason the country (and for that matter the world) is going to 5hit.

 

[The Heretic]

Sorry, again, if you "swear an oath", I expect you to keep it. Perhaps many won't. I don't give a F, I still expect it. Kind of pointless to even bother with it to begin with if you don't.

Then you are truly naive and you will be disappointed a lot - but you just go on expecting people to keep their word.

People lie all the time to get what they want. THAT is why a politician makes that oath - it is meaningless to them. But you are free to go right on believing that they won't lie, cheat and steal.

BTW - I've got some nice beachfront land in Mojave Desert that is for sale real cheap and I think you are just the person who would benefit from this one time deal.

 

[DunRanull]

I thought they were pro gun, pro 2A gun owners who just wanted some "common sense" laws on the books. Funny how the true colors always come out in time.

I learned back when the 68 Gun Control bill was passed and the liberals came back for MORE control that "Common Sense" means that Gun Owners compromise more freedom to maintain what little we have left. It will never end until they have every gun except their own, of course. Then they will come back wanting "assault knives" like bowies, tantos, hunting knives over so many inches, etc etc.
There can be no compromise with these people and there must be no surrender.