Future General Purpose Caliber for US Military

[tacticalgunner]

Fine if you are boarded up in your house with a few thousand rounds of ammo taking on the golden horde

You cant have something for nothing. You pack a .308 battle rifle you get twice the carry weight and half the amount of ammo. Slower follow up shots and a more fatigued shooter. In the real world for a real soldier up against a foe with a faster, lighter weapon you will lose.

Talk to a guy who has actually used a 5.56 in combat. I think you will find that in the real world 95% of people shot center mass with a 5.56 go down when hit.

Totally agree with that last statement, and its the same about the 9mm also. Your second comment I also agree with and would like to expand if I may. Target acquisition and maintaining target are a big part of it also, gun weight to stay on target, or if you have a rifle with a ton of recoil, you can not maintain target, also if your in 3 rnd, maintaining barrel climb is a big part of it also. 5.56 is not a bad round. Big hammer or not, the bigger the hammer, the harder to swing. You gotta hit the sweet spot or the nail bends. I would honestly not want to get hit by a .22LR. The object of the military is to shoot to incapacitate, not kill. Unless your SF, shooting to kill is a byproduct, ordinarily you shoot for center mass, not head, reason more lies in the legal term of combat and also, you might want someone or more to come to the aid of that person you just shot, if their head is blown off, your enemy will bypass him to help someone that can be saved, and when they are kneeling to help that individual, you take him out also. Its a game of dominoes and a smaller tap takes out more bones.

 

[Sgt Nambu]

Yes, but correctly engineered with modern materials (like a M-14) add an upgraded Sage-like stock for the DM role.
Here's a new article by a GI medic:

Combat Medic's Advice: "Shoot the heaviest rifle round…shoot at what (you) can hit, and then shoot it again"
By Dan Zimmerman on October 9, 2014
View attachment 107165
Reader JWT writes:
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/20...oot-heaviest-rifle-round-shoot-can-hit-shoot/

Thanks erudne, a really interesting opinion. Not just because I agree either! LOL!!!

 

[mrblond]

Has anyone read up on the MK 262 Mod 1 ammo? It seems to me to be the quick and simple answer

I have a case of it.. well the IDF version. I have not, as of yet shot any of it but I hear good things.

 

[Doc In UPlace]

Oops disregard.

 

[IronMonster]

I just ordered a case of the CBC 77gr OTM. $610/w shipping for 1000 rds. Quite a bit cheaper than the buck a round the Black Hills stuff costs. I have a 1/7 barrel on my Noveske, I probably should have bought a single box to see if she likes it first.

I would like to shoot it against a 6.8 spc. I know it will out shoot the 5.56 with any weight bullet but I am curious as to how much


On another note did you notice even the guy in the trauma medic story conceded in the end and chose an AR?

 

[3MTA3]

I just ordered a case of the CBC 77gr OTM. $610/w shipping for 1000 rds. Quite a bit cheaper than the buck a round the Black Hills stuff costs. I have a 1/7 barrel on my Noveske, I probably should have bought a single box to see if she likes it first.

I would like to shoot it against a 6.8 spc. I know it will out shoot the 5.56 with any weight bullet but I am curious as to how much


On another note did you notice even the guy in the trauma medic story conceded in the end and chose an AR?

Yup, caught that even the Medic is OK with 556 as long as it uses an expanding bullet. I'm interested in how well you like the CBC ammo.

 

[mrblond]

Yup, caught that even the Medic is OK with 556 as long as it uses an expanding bullet. I'm interested in how well you like the CBC ammo.

As am I
hell of a lot cheaper then the IDF stuff.

 

[3MTA3]

I just ordered a case of the CBC 77gr OTM. $610/w shipping for 1000 rds. Quite a bit cheaper than the buck a round the Black Hills stuff costs. I have a 1/7 barrel on my Noveske, I probably should have bought a single box to see if she likes it first.

I would like to shoot it against a 6.8 spc. I know it will out shoot the 5.56 with any weight bullet but I am curious as to how much


On another note did you notice even the guy in the trauma medic story conceded in the end and chose an AR?

Also - did you order that through G & R Tactical?

 

[IronMonster]

Its kind of late in this discussion but I never really thought about it till now. I have taken a deer with a AR. Clean shot head shot dropped where I shot it. Granted it was a 50 yard shot and well placed but there is zero doubt that it can drop a large animal. I really did not intend on taking the deer with my AR. I was packing both a 7MM mag and the AR and I just looked at the shot and thought the 7MM mag was going to make a mess of things. I have also shot a deer with a 30-06 that did not drop it where it was shot, poor shot placement.

I really hope all this is speculation. I never intend to shoot anyone and I enjoy my AR's as paper punchers and steel ringers. I really do like the AR platform though and take it a little personal when its attacked. There is no "better" there is only the right tool for the job. The 5.56 is not the right tool for every job, but neither is a .308 or a .50 BMG

"The AR is the most accurate rifle ever to grace the ranges of NRA High Power (Don't believe me? Check the scores and match results) and one of the most reliable self loading rifles ever made. I will grudgingly give that the AK is more reliable but only in limited circumstances. If you are going to treat a rifle as a neglected tool, like the rusty crescent wrench in your toolbox, never oil it, never clean it, never give it a moments care or consideration, then yes, an AK is more reliable than an AR. And a length of steel pipe is more reliable than an AK"

Quote from Patric Sweeney, AR lover and book writer

 

[IronMonster]

Also - did you order that through G & R Tactical?

I did...

 

[Sam Kinard]

We definitely all have an opinion. I mean no offense to Mr. Sweeney, as he is an accomplished gunsmith and a great competitor, especially with the pistol. The bottom line and to simply cut to the chase, I have shot men with a 9x19, .45 and 5.56. I have never shot a man with a .30 caliber and I have never been in a position personally(though they do happen, however rare) where purposely wounding a combatant with the purpose of drawing out additional targets was an option. That is sniper work, generally speaking. I won't continue repeating myself and I mean no disrespect to the opinions of others, but after you put enough holes in all sorts of materials organic and otherwise you find what works and what doesn't(or in this case, what works better, as the 9x19 and 5.56 will definitely work.). I have no interest in silencing or beating up the opinion of others and completely agree that with todays projectiles(the expanding ones), the 5.56 is a fine weapon. The point of this thread was to discuss potential GP calibers for the military and any conversation of such will naturally gravitate toward bore size, 9vs.45, ARvs.AK and all of the other variables. I have gleaned info from this exchange and I hope I have helped others see different angles to what will without a doubt be a heated debate for as long as we have a military and personal firearms.

 

[IronMonster]

My feeling is that the most interesting discussions come about because of passionate folks with different views, and you have interesting things to contribute Sam. It would be no fun to have these discussion if everyone thought exactly like I did.

And I fully agree a 7.62 x 51 would be a superior choice, but only if you could somehow develop a .308 rifle that weighed 6 pounds and had the recoil of a 5.56 and had someone else to hump the ammo for ya

The long and short of the new military caliber debate is the M16/M4 is here to stay for the foreseeable future. The improved cartridges for the AR platform are great and by all accounts better suited for combat than the 5.56 however I bet "better" has little to do with anything. The only way we will get a new caliber is to get a new rifle and I bet that is a decade off minimum. There is no way they would have multiple AR calibers in general use simultaneously, that would be a nightmare. I have seen 5.56 AR's that had a .300 blk chambered and fired, basically turns the upper into a grenade. You couldn't chamber a 6.8 spc in a 5.56 but you can sure someone would be pounding on the forward assist with a 2 x 4 trying to. Nope, until we get a new platform we are stuck with the 5.56 love it or hate it.

 

[erudne]

I wish more people would understand the truth of this article and others like it. A bullet of heavier weight and a larger meplat simply does more damage. It's amazing that you truly double your chances(or better) of a one shot stop with a .45 over a 9mm. When carrying an autoloader, I only carry a 1911 and in that 1911 are either 230gr. JHP Winchester Ranger +P or 200gr. hard cast SWC. The same applies to rifle rounds. Our 5.56 would be useful if expanding ammo were used. Since expanding ammo can't be used, it is like shooting someone with a little ice pick.

I've heard people speak of their expanding 9mm ammo and high velocities. No matter the expansion, my .45 will never be less than .451 and that is why I carry a .45.

I saw a Big 4X4 PU today in a Prineville Walmart w/ a USMC bumper sticker and another that said 45 ACP, cause shooting twice is just silly!
I pack a 9mm for reasons best left unsaid

 

[Norm0931]

I wish more people would understand the truth of this article and others like it. A bullet of heavier weight and a larger meplat simply does more damage. It's amazing that you truly double your chances(or better) of a one shot stop with a .45 over a 9mm. When carrying an autoloader, I only carry a 1911 and in that 1911 are either 230gr. JHP Winchester Ranger +P or 200gr. hard cast SWC. The same applies to rifle rounds. Our 5.56 would be useful if expanding ammo were used. Since expanding ammo can't be used, it is like shooting someone with a little ice pick.

I've heard people speak of their expanding 9mm ammo and high velocities. No matter the expansion, my .45 will never be less than .451 and that is why I carry a .45.

We definitely all have an opinion. I mean no offense to Mr. Sweeney, as he is an accomplished gunsmith and a great competitor, especially with the pistol. The bottom line and to simply cut to the chase, I have shot men with a 9x19, .45 and 5.56. I have never shot a man with a .30 caliber and I have never been in a position personally(though they do happen, however rare) where purposely wounding a combatant with the purpose of drawing out additional targets was an option. That is sniper work, generally speaking. I won't continue repeating myself and I mean no disrespect to the opinions of others, but after you put enough holes in all sorts of materials organic and otherwise you find what works and what doesn't(or in this case, what works better, as the 9x19 and 5.56 will definitely work.). I have no interest in silencing or beating up the opinion of others and completely agree that with todays projectiles(the expanding ones), the 5.56 is a fine weapon. The point of this thread was to discuss potential GP calibers for the military and any conversation of such will naturally gravitate toward bore size, 9vs.45, ARvs.AK and all of the other variables. I have gleaned info from this exchange and I hope I have helped others see different angles to what will without a doubt be a heated debate for as long as we have a military and personal firearms.

I've used 9mm, 45ACP, 5.56, 7.62 NATO and larger rounds to engage targets before. With respect to rifles I feel it's really a range issue. You balance the need of distance vs the weight and capacity of ammunition. Pretty simple there IMO. I would honestly love to see the military transition to 6.5 or 6.8 for standard rifles and 6x35mm for CQC weapons.

As far as pistols are concerned, every time I hear someone give the "one shot" line I shake my head in disgust and know they two things; Either 1) they have never actually used a firearm in a combat scenario or 2) they are lying out their bubblegum about it. I've used both and I can tell you without a doubt, you roll back on training, NO ONE FIRES ONE ROUND. Having a 45 just means you have to reload more. This is time out of the fight that is more likely to get you or the people around you killed.

 

[Sam Kinard]

I've used 9mm, 45ACP, 5.56, 7.62 NATO and larger rounds to engage targets before. With respect to rifles I feel it's really a range issue. You balance the need of distance vs the weight and capacity of ammunition. Pretty simple there IMO. I would honestly love to see the military transition to 6.5 or 6.8 for standard rifles and 6x35mm for CQC weapons.

As far as pistols are concerned, every time I hear someone give the "one shot" line I shake my head in disgust and know they two things; Either 1) they have never actually used a firearm in a combat scenario or 2) they are lying out their bubblegum about it. I've used both and I can tell you without a doubt, you roll back on training, NO ONE FIRES ONE ROUND. Having a 45 just means you have to reload more. This is time out of the fight that is more likely to get you or the people around you killed.

So, anyone with a one shot put down with a .45 is a liar? You are calling a lot of good men that have done it a liar, in that case. I can't speak for you, but I have emptied magazines without a single hit and I have in fact stopped with one shot from a 9x19. You can shake your head all you like in your mock "disgust". Have you ever had rounds hit you or yours from a combatant that has been shot several times? Have you ever rolled over bodies that fought with bloody t-shirts to find 10-14 9mm holes? Have you ever seen what a .45 caliber 200gr. SWC does when it slaps the s*** out of someone's chest?

Of course range is an issue and of course we all have opinions(I think I covered that in about 3 or 4 posts now). My "people" are armed with .45's and I would NEVER want them to downgrade because I know how dangerous that truly is. If you want to argue or give your point of view, I'm all for it. If you want to tell me that what I have said is all a lie, you've shown your hand. I am not a historical figure. It would be incredible for someone to tell the deadliest men in our recent history that they are wrong, no matter their body count. Charlie Askins Jr. killed 27 white men and never kept track of the blacks and Hispanics while working the Border Patrol. He probably has a realistic count of between 60-100 kills. Jeff Cooper killed only 2 men, but then went on to basically create most all we know about pistol work. Bill Jordan did most of his BP killing with a 12ga., but knew that the only way to save his fellow law enforcement officers lives was to create the .41mag(whether they were man enough to handle the recoil is not Jordan's fault). George Parker was a borderline psychopath and Askins best friend. No one know how many men they killed on the border, but when they had their choice of arms, Askins used a .44-40 Colt New Service and Parker preferred the 1911. Askins was also the first to use the .44mag on a man in Vietnam in 1957. I wonder why he didn't carry something smaller with more capacity? Elmer Keith never shot a man, but he did such extensive testing with handgun hunting and simple practice to further confirm what all these famous men and myself found out on the field.

My opinions come from experience and I don't need to convince anyone else to carry a man's weapon. With today's projectiles, of course the 9x19 is an effective weapon. If today's projectiles make the 9mm better, they also improve larger calibers. If someone needs to tempt fate, they will find 230gr. +P Winchester Rangers or 200gr. SWC's in my magazine. 8+1 is plenty when you don't panic and carry a spare mag. All I need it to do is get me to my truck where an AK74 with mags full of 7n6 and 60gr. Hornady V-Max rounds sits. I know what works and am not about to turn my back on reality because someone's feelings got hurt by the truth. By all means speak your opinion, but don't call me a liar again.

 

[Blitzkrieg]

My preference is the 7.62 x 39 or 7.62 x 51, but have numerous 5.56 weapons, and for CQC anti personell, this is what we use in them

 

[IronMonster]

You got to admit that ice pick @ 3000/fps makes a wee bit bigger than .22 diameter wound channel. Yeah a .308 would tear the gel in half but you know damn well that somewhere there is a vet with a story about a combatant that needed a second round of .50 bmg to stop him ( yes I am serious and yes I know how silly that is. I have owned two .50's and can tell you what they do to a rock chuck. I have actually killed chucks with a .50 miss. You hit within a few inches and the impact and detritus is enough to shut them off instantly)

 

[DeanMk]

 

[Norm0931]

So, anyone with a one shot put down with a .45 is a liar? You are calling a lot of good men that have done it a liar, in that case. I can't speak for you, but I have emptied magazines without a single hit and I have in fact stopped with one shot from a 9x19. You can shake your head all you like in your mock "disgust". Have you ever had rounds hit you or yours from a combatant that has been shot several times? Have you ever rolled over bodies that fought with bloody t-shirts to find 10-14 9mm holes? Have you ever seen what a .45 caliber 200gr. SWC does when it slaps the s*** out of someone's chest?

Of course range is an issue and of course we all have opinions(I think I covered that in about 3 or 4 posts now). My "people" are armed with .45's and I would NEVER want them to downgrade because I know how dangerous that truly is. If you want to argue or give your point of view, I'm all for it. If you want to tell me that what I have said is all a lie, you've shown your hand. I am not a historical figure. It would be incredible for someone to tell the deadliest men in our recent history that they are wrong, no matter their body count. Charlie Askins Jr. killed 27 white men and never kept track of the blacks and Hispanics while working the Border Patrol. He probably has a realistic count of between 60-100 kills. Jeff Cooper killed only 2 men, but then went on to basically create most all we know about pistol work. Bill Jordan did most of his BP killing with a 12ga., but knew that the only way to save his fellow law enforcement officers lives was to create the .41mag(whether they were man enough to handle the recoil is not Jordan's fault). George Parker was a borderline psychopath and Askins best friend. No one know how many men they killed on the border, but when they had their choice of arms, Askins used a .44-40 Colt New Service and Parker preferred the 1911. Askins was also the first to use the .44mag on a man in Vietnam in 1957. I wonder why he didn't carry something smaller with more capacity? Elmer Keith never shot a man, but he did such extensive testing with handgun hunting and simple practice to further confirm what all these famous men and myself found out on the field.

My opinions come from experience and I don't need to convince anyone else to carry a man's weapon. With today's projectiles, of course the 9x19 is an effective weapon. If today's projectiles make the 9mm better, they also improve larger calibers. If someone needs to tempt fate, they will find 230gr. +P Winchester Rangers or 200gr. SWC's in my magazine. 8+1 is plenty when you don't panic and carry a spare mag. All I need it to do is get me to my truck where an AK74 with mags full of 7n6 and 60gr. Hornady V-Max rounds sits. I know what works and am not about to turn my back on reality because someone's feelings got hurt by the truth. By all means speak your opinion, but don't call me a liar again.

Just slow your roll there Green Beret Delta Ranger SEAL. Yes, I think you are full of bubblegum.

Furthmore, it's not the 50s, 60s, or 70s anymore. I kinda expect you next to throw some line about, "all you wusses should be using smooth bore muskets!. Them's a real fighting man's weapon!"

You can question my "experience" all you want but, you cheapen your word when he make reference to "a man's weapon." If you have to carry a 45 ACP to feel like a man, you have WAY more problems than deciding on a caliber.

 

[Stomper]

And we have thread splashdown in 3, 2, 1......