Full length sizing/Neck sizing.....

[Mikej]

I was going to bump the shoulder on loaded 204s that I had not shoulder bumped. Before I did it I asked a very well respected gunsmith and he brought up that it was like a loaded round in a chamber at that point. Probably not an issue but if there is something it would be catastrophic

I thought of doing all by myself...

So let me ask how you got to having loaded rounds that were needing the shoulder bumped back? I'm thinking you missed a step where you should have checked before loading the rounds?
And do you recall how far off the shoulders were from allowing the bolt to close?

I think what I'm getting here is that you are able to get more than one/two loads out of the brass with neck sizing only, but eventually you're more than likely to need a full length sizing/shoulder bump also. On bolt action rifles anyway.

 

[Goosebrown]

So let me ask how you got to having loaded rounds that were needing the shoulder bumped back? I'm thinking you missed a step where you should have checked before loading the rounds?
And do you recall how far off the shoulders were from allowing the bolt to close?

I think what I'm getting here is that you are able to get more than one/two loads out of the brass with neck sizing only, but eventually you're more than likely to need a full length sizing/shoulder bump also. On bolt action rifles anyway.

Just so. These were on their sixth reload neck only. On load 5 they were tight but I didn't think they'd change much in one reload and they did.

This is also before I knew there were shoulder only dies.

Live you learn.

 

[Mikej]

Just so. These were on their sixth reload neck only. On load 5 they were tight but I didn't think they'd change much in one reload and they did.

This is also before I knew there were shoulder only dies.

Live you learn.

Soaking it up! Thank you.

 

[bsa1917hunter]

I started reloading pistol caliber in 1981. I reload for 38 spl/357, 44 mag, 9 mm and 45 acp.
and rifle calibers 223, 308, 30/06, 8 mm, 30 carbine and 7.5X55 Swiss.
Several thousand 45 acp and 9 mm annually for competition and practice. I have
never trimmed a pistol case. I full length size all rifle calibers with RCBS dies.
Adjust rifle sizer die for a minimal shoulder bump back using RCBS Precision Mic. For 30/06
I set the shoulder back to what new ammo measures. Since I own several different
rifles chambered in 30/06. I do not crimp rifle loads for better accuracy. I shoot
semi auto rifles AR, M-1, and M-1A and have no problems with bullets pushing back
into case. Ammo cost is not the only consideration. Do you want it to go bang or
do you want to hold the 10 ring? Cheap factory ammo is not match grade. You can reload much more accurate ammo than cheap factory ammo.
View attachment 527244
RCBS Precision Mics - RCBS

Great post Ron. Those precision mics are great tools.

 

[bsa1917hunter]

So let me ask how you got to having loaded rounds that were needing the shoulder bumped back? I'm thinking you missed a step where you should have checked before loading the rounds?
And do you recall how far off the shoulders were from allowing the bolt to close?

I think what I'm getting here is that you are able to get more than one/two loads out of the brass with neck sizing only, but eventually you're more than likely to need a full length sizing/shoulder bump also. On bolt action rifles anyway.

Exactamundo. So now you need to buy a fl die anyway. Why not just keep it simple?

 

[Mikej]

Exactamundo. So now you need to buy a fl die anyway. Why not just keep it simple?

Simple? ME? Surely you jest? I have the two die Hornady set. I'm under the impression that a full length sizing is harder on the brass. It may be a moot point though as I don't get out a lot. It may take me a long time to overwork brass by full sizing every time. On one hand I want to get as many loading as possible/On the other hand if I got seven loadings full length sizing compared to ten neck only sizing, I may as well do the easier full length size.

 

[eightyeight mag]

Just use a full length die ( i prefer RCBS) and adjust it so you just bump shoulder back enough to chamber. Like .001 or .002.
I do this for all my rifle calibers. No reason to buy a neck die only because eventually you need to bump the shoulder back.
Your standard rcbs full length die can do everything you want it to with a caliper and head space gauge bushing. ( I use the hornady head space gauge).
Obviously when you load this way it is for that specific rifle chamber but you are going to extend brass life and increase accuracy.
My .02

 

[bsa1917hunter]

I'll try to write this out as to not insult anyone and their method, but keeping it simple is the way to go. We all want good reliable ammo to go in our hunting rifles. We all want accurate precise ammo for our target rifles. Who's to say our hunting rifles can't also be some of our target rifles with our handloads? I'd like for the OP to go back and read Ron's posts, as that is part of the magic "keep it simple" approach. Most of us here know Ron is a competitive shooter. He likes accurate ammo, he also counts on it to be reliable. Ron probably shoots more than most of us here and he's been reloading since '81. That's almost 40 years of experience under his belt. I've only been reloading since '96, but use similar methods. Here are the tools I would suggest the new handloader look into:

1. RCBS or similar FL die set
2. RCBS precision mic or Lyman case length gauge
3. Any ol concentricity gauge
4. Good set of calipers
5. Reloading maunuals for every bullet brand you load for
6. Case prep center

As for some of the other other tools that have been suggested. Some are simply not needed: The hornady bullet comparitor and OAL gauge are just gizmo's that take up counter space. Learn to find the lands the old and easy way. These simple methods are shown in reloading manuals in the how to section. You need to find the lands and know how far off the lands you are loading your bullets, but those extra gadgets really arent needed.
What I'm saying here is we want our ammo to be reliable, accurate and safe in our firearms. Keep it simple. Handloading doesn't have to be a chore or too much like work. When you throw in multiple unnecessary steps, it starts looking like work to me and not so much an enjoyable hobby anymore.



Keep them in the x-ring and keep it simple...

 

[bsa1917hunter]

Simple? ME? Surely you jest? I have the two die Hornady set. I'm under the impression that a full length sizing is harder on the brass. It may be a moot point though as I don't get out a lot. It may take me a long time to overwork brass by full sizing every time. On one hand I want to get as many loading as possible/On the other hand if I got ten loadings full length sizing compared to seven neck only sizing, I may as well do the easier full length size.

Once you learn how to properly set up your FL die, you won't be oversizing the brass. Like Ron and some others suggested, buy a precision mic, lyman or wilson case length gauge or hornady headspace gauge and you'll be golden. It seems like you are being way partial to the neck sizing idea, when there are easier options out there. Also, keep in mind some of those guys that work behind a gun counter don't know their azz from a hole in the ground. Until they can convince me their rifles and loads can outshoot mine, I take what they say with a grain of salt. Listen to guys like Ron, he's a competitive shooter and generally knows what he is talking about.
Speaking of guys that work behind the counter, I met this funny older gentleman at Cabela's the other day. Likable guy and helpful, I got a kick out of all the "wallet groups" he had. 3 shot groups nonetheless. I think he even laminated them . He asked how my new savage 12fv 6.5 creedmoor was shooting and I said "around moa". He said, "that rifle should be shooting sub 1/2 moa". I said, yeah but I shoot 10 shot groups... He didn't have any 10 shot groups in his wallet.... Anyone can shoot a good 3 shot group:

Even my AR10 shoots good 3 shot groups...

 

[eightyeight mag]

A set of these headspace gauge bushings and caliper are all you need to set up you dies. Cover pretty much all rifle calibers.

Takes up less space and is much cheaper than having a precision mic for every caliber.
Throw in the lock and load insert to measure your overall length and your done.

 

[Goosebrown]

Exactamundo. So now you need to buy a fl die anyway. Why not just keep it simple?

Another option are neck/shoulder dies. I have no full length dies for me 6mm br or my 204

 

[Mikej]

A set of these headspace gauge bushings and caliper are all you need to set up you dies. Cover pretty much all rifle calibers.

Takes up less space and is much cheaper than having a precision mic for every caliber.
Throw in the lock and load insert to measure your overall length and your done.
View attachment 527786

I just ordered one of those.

 

[DizzyJ]

A set of these headspace gauge bushings and caliper are all you need to set up you dies. Cover pretty much all rifle calibers.

Takes up less space and is much cheaper than having a precision mic for every caliber.
Throw in the lock and load insert to measure your overall length and your done.
View attachment 527786

This is what I have and use.

 

[bsa1917hunter]

A set of these headspace gauge bushings and caliper are all you need to set up you dies. Cover pretty much all rifle calibers.

Takes up less space and is much cheaper than having a precision mic for every caliber.
Throw in the lock and load insert to measure your overall length and your done.
View attachment 527786

Good suggestion.

 

[bsa1917hunter]

The "Full length resizing?" and "Neck sizing only?" threads have been of interest to me, so I've got some questions for specific rifles.

At this point I've processed/loaded several thousand hand gun rounds in several calibers. I'm doin' it the old fashion way, single stage, with an RCBS Rock Chucker. I have a good feel for it and it's been enjoyable and rewarding. Now that I have a couple of old 100+ YO bolt rifles I will, at some point, be loading for them. First up will be the 1902 Swede Mauser. With handgun ammo you pretty much full length size all straight wall cases. Sizing makes the brass grow. Roll crimped brass needs to be uniform in length so it likely gets trimmed. Talking once or thrice fired range brass here. Never loaded new brass.

When it comes to the Swede. Will my once fired by me in my Swede, quality, brass need to be full length sized? If not, it means that the brass springs back enough that it will chamber, after re-loading, with only a neck size? The Swede head spaces on the shoulder(?), that would mean with the bolt face firmly against the case head when firing that a bump-back of the shoulder on sizing would not be needed?

Now, on to the SMLE BSA 1918 Enfield.....Same questions pretty much. Ammo is pretty cheap for that at $9.95/20 non-reloadable. So there's that to consider whether or not I'll ever reload for that. In some reading there have been people saying that chambers were very loose in these rifles to accommodate the filth and mud during WWI. That would indicate to me the .303 brass would likely need full length sizing after firing? where as the Swede head spaces on the shoulder it looks like the Enfield's head space on the RIM?

One other thing, after shooting that Enfield I noticed that there was some resistance when ejecting the empty brass after firing using German, MEN, surplus 1983 vintage rounds. A dependable source has told me it's good stuff. And no noticable resistance when chambering.

Eventually I plan on loading for the AR .223 also. But with the good Black Friday prices for ammo I've moved even farther into the future with that possibility.

This might seem a redundant thread, but putting it on paper, so to speak, seem to give me a better picture.

Mike, one of the reasons for my suggestions in the previous posts, is to save you the headache of adding more steps needed in the loading process. What you have is old military rifles. I also have some of these old military rifles. You are not loading for benchrest rifles, correct? Would you be happy with these results in your 6.5x55?:


Groups shot at 100 yards with iron sights with this rifle:


Again, no need for neck sizing, especially on an old military rifle with iron sights. Now, moving on to the .223 rem AR you will be loading for eventually. You will need to FL size those cartridges, for both safety and function. Some guys even go to the extent of using a small base die, but many in the know avoid those, unless absolutely necessary. If you are dead set on using the neck sizing die, I wish you the best of luck. You are going to need it.. and please don't be the guy checking every neck sized load in his house or garage and have a negligent discharge shooting the neighbors wife or something.. I've heard a lot of guys check every loaded round they produce, but I'm glad my method doesn't require me to do that. Think safe, think simple..

 

[Mikej]

Mike, one of the reasons for my suggestions in the previous posts, is to save you the headache of adding more steps needed in the loading process. What you have is old military rifles. I also have some of these old military rifles. You are not loading for benchrest rifles, correct? Would you be happy with these results in your 6.5x55?:
View attachment 528048
View attachment 528049
Groups shot at 100 yards with iron sights with this rifle:
View attachment 528050

Again, no need for neck sizing, especially on an old military rifle with iron sights. Now, moving on to the .223 rem AR you will be loading for eventually. You will need to FL size those cartridges, for both safety and function. Some guys even go to the extent of using a small base die, but many in the know avoid those, unless absolutely necessary. If you are dead set on using the neck sizing die, I wish you the best of luck. You are going to need it.. and please don't be the guy checking every neck sized load in his house or garage and have a negligent discharge shooting the neighbors wife or something.. I've heard a lot of guys check every loaded round they produce, but I'm glad my method doesn't require me to do that. Think safe, think simple..

Hey I know that place. I'd be ecstatic with those results. That's a beauty of a stock on that Swede.

This be my 1902 short rifle from this thread...
Swedish Mauser ?........


I've come to the conclusion with all the input to KISS. I'll just be using the Hornady 2 die set I've got. I wasn't dead set on using anything, only needing to know how to get the most life out of the brass. I've also been reading about small base dies and have a good grasp why and why not those are used.
RE loading my own...I take it very seriously with great attention to safety and detail. It is working with explosives after all. I like to believe I'm not "That Guy" in most of what I do. I've been working with tools since I was a young boy, and started working with micrometers in engine building in high school and for some years after that. I still have all my fingers and toes, and two eyes, though, they are fading somewhat.

 

[Member 5605]

Additional information:

Let's Talk Precision Rifle Brass (Full Length vs. Neck Sizing)