FTF transactions...paperwork or no paperwork?

[coctailer]

Plus with a CPL (or CHL down there in Ore) you pertty much have your anti-felon BG check at least as recently as the last issue date.

CHL holders are pretty much risk free for selling to.

Unless..................

They committed a crime after they got their CPL (I'm sure it happens) not very likely though.

When I sell a gun in WA, The buyer has to fill out a 4473 and get a background check.
In WA, there is a waiting period for handguns if you don't have a CPL.

When the person returns to pick up the gun, they must sign the 4472 AGAIN to re-certify that the statements are still true from when they originally filled out the form.

This kinda means they are saying "I didn't rob a bank since I last saw you"

Having a CPL does not mean a person is legal to own a gun.
(this last statement would require a conversation over a beer, or a call to the ATF to completely explain)

Sorry about the long winded replies. I am only trying to put some over-generalities into real perspectives.

 

[tionico]

The CPL does indicate the holder WAS legal to own a handgun at the time he got the last license renewal. As has been pointed out, who knows what he could have done since then? However, odds are VERY good such a license holder is safe as a gun buying customer. One question I have.... and having just been through the whole thread on interstate FTF sales (I started that thread a couple weeks ago) this is not clear in all the legal stuff we looked into: is it mandatory, or even strongly recommended, that the seller see and record the info on some government issued photo ID, such as the driving license? What 18CFR says is that I cannot KNOWINGLY sell to a resident of another state. If I check his ID and find he's a furriner, then sell, why, I've just committed a felony and I'll hope real hard I don't get found out. However, if the "issue' never comes up in conversation, I am given no clue that he's out of state, I don't check ID, I don't see how I've committed the crime.. I have to know, or have reasonable grounds to assume (he drove into the parking lot in vancouver WA in a car with Oregon plates....) he's non resident of my state, then I am surely wrong, and culpable for it. But, suppose he answers my advert and comes calling on me in Spokane...... no clues he's an Oregon/Idaho resident... am I REQUIRED to check his ID?

Of course, given the long shot possibility he'll go off and bump a bank with MY former barker in hand, it would certainly stand me in good stead with the local constabulary should I have been so thorough as to have recorded his WDL number anad got his John Hancock on a bit of paper, along with the make, model, serial number, of the gun I'm selling. And no, holding such info is NOT pandering to the government who will (likely but hopefully not) come round knocking up my door looking to know why a pistol registered to ME was used in that bank job last week. The "classic" WHERE WERE YOU ON THE NIGHT OF....' routine could conceivably go a lot harder on me if I've got no substantiatable explanation for the whereabouts of "my" firearm on the night of...... and making the claim "it was lost overside in a boating accident" won't hold too much water, either, I fear. I can hear the man in the blue suit with the bulge just beneath his left armpit: oh REALLY., now... and just WHERE did that capsise incident occur?

I suppose one more "out" would be to record the basic details of the transaction, sans official information (DL number....) along with a complete description, including serial number, of the piece in question, perhaps date, time and place, of the sale, brief description of the purchaser (price not needed.... that could ONLY help the taxman, who needs none) seal it in an envelope and post it to yourself..... when it re-arrives, simpply file it (perhaps with brief gun description on the outside of the cover) with your gun records...... should the need ever arise, fetch it up and present it, unopened, and insist the officer open and examine it right there with you present..... preferably your personal soliciter as well.... the postmark and its being sealed would establish that you created that record and sent it on or before the date of the postmark. It is also legal precedent that a record made at the time of an occurrence on one's own hand and preserved IS prima facie evidence in support of the statements made therein. If I sold a gun registered to me, made and posted such a record of it, and it was used in a crime three years on, I'd have pretty solid proof I no longer owned the weapon in question.

Of course, for the purpose of bringing a criminal to justice before the bar, having positive identification would be an invaluable aid. And I'm all for consiging such nefarious persons to the lockup at every opportunity. They cost ALL of us far too much, and the "law" has put forth a rather miserable record in their dealing with such persons.

 

[coctailer]

Excellent reply.

I don't know about the "Required" part of your post. That question is best asked of the ATF.

Internet legal advice is worth what you pay for it.

 

[Kennedy]

So then I have a question. What about the opposite? What about buying a gun FTF from someone that you don't know? How can you be assured that it isn't hot or has been used in a crime? Granted the chance that you would ever have worry about it is rare. But lets be hypothetical, what are your options?

 

[orgreg]

I spoke with the local BATF office a few years back, and the way they explained it to me we are private citizens have no obligation to keep any paperwork, and that anything beyond recording the date that you acquired and sold/traded/dispositioned the gun is of no added value.

I asked the guy what if a gun I sell is later used in a crime? His response was that in this country you are innocent until proven guilty, and if you say you bough a gun on a particular date and then sold on a later date that is good enough because the law does not require you to prove any more than that. ...so while the authorities will definitely want to follow the paper trail as far as it goes (where licensed gun dealers are involved) you aren't suspected of anything.

These days, there is such a huge problem with identity theft that I personally refuse to provide unique identifiers and signatures to anybody unless I am compelled a legal requirement to do so. I don't mind doing a bill of sale, but it's going to be limited to the date of transfer, s/n and description of the gun, seller's name and city of residence, and buyer's name and city of residence. It's not that I distrust private parties, but when providing similar info to a licensed gun dealer, they must maintain a secure place of business, and if they close the business they have to transfer the records to the BATF. The same can't be said for the protections my personal info would have in private hands.

 

[orgreg]

You can call your sheriff's office records department to have a s/n run through LEDS (OR database) and NCIC (federal database) to see if the gun is clear, but keep in mind this only represents a snapshot in time. There are lots of things that could delay a person (or gun shop) from noticing that a gun was stolen.

If you come across a deal that is too good to pass up, think really hard about it. The seller might not know the true value of the gun (entirely possible) or just want a quick sale, but the gun might also be stolen.

 

[AOTAC]

If I'm not mistaken, Washington county will transfer you to the Oregon State Police to run the S/N of the gun in question. At least that's been my experience. The last few times I've done it, OSP wanted to know what address I was as and if I was in possession of said firearm. I was told by a friend that this is in case it's stolen, they'll immediately dispatch someone to pick it up... and ask a lot of questions.

When I've called, they always have asked my name but I've declined to give them more than my first name. They have that info from caller I.D anyway (though I started using payphones).

 

[orgreg]

If you call Washington County's Records Department directly, they will be happy to help you. I've had them run s/n's many times.

 

[bnr32gtr]

When I sell a firearm, I either have it transferred to the buyer(if time and situation permits) or, at the very least, have them fill out a detailed bill of sale, including name, DL#, phone and address. If they don't want to do that, they don't get the gun. Simple as that.

I sold a gun years ago to a good friend then, he sold it to another buddy who later had it stolen from his truck. It was used in a crime in Seattle(no one died) and the police came calling me. No records, unfortunately, but my friend and his buddy were nice enough to vouch for me on the deal. Took a while to clear up, but that is why I keep records.

The only real way to make a bill of sale 100% legal though, is to have it Notorized.

Good luck and stay safe!

 

[Bearndawoods]

This looks like an older thread , but i cant help commenting. This issue comes down to one thing and one thing only. The 2nd ammendment. There is NO registration required, period, end of story. Its our patriotic duty to support this ammendment, not to support the tyranical nancies that are actively working to strip us of our rights. If the storm troopers come asking questions tell em where to go. They strip us of our rights by getting us to comply to what at first seems like small rules, the they add more, and more , and more, until we look around and realize that we're all a bunch of sheep.

 

[Trlsmn]

This looks like an older thread , but i cant help commenting. This issue comes down to one thing and one thing only. The 2nd ammendment. There is NO registration required, period, end of story. Its our patriotic duty to support this ammendment, not to support the tyranical nancies that are actively working to strip us of our rights. If the storm troopers come asking questions tell em where to go. They strip us of our rights by getting us to comply to what at first seems like small rules, the they add more, and more , and more, until we look around and realize that we're all a bunch of sheep.

This isn't about the 2nd amendment, this is about CYA because no one else will.

 

[Bearndawoods]

sorry but i have to strongly dissagree. IMHO no one else SHOULD CYA. There's nothing to cover. If you make a sale of a firearm and someone commits a crime, youre no more responsible, than the manufacturer of the gun, or the manufacturer of the ammo, or the landlord of the building where the crime was committed. Thats all ludacris. If we all stood up for our rights more and ignored any unconstitutional law/act then the powers that be might take notice.

"all laws which are repugnant to the constitution are null and void" Marbury v. Madison 5 US 137,176

so contrare my friend, this is absolutely about the 2nd ammendment

 

[Trlsmn]

Ah but the difference between theory and reality can be very expensive. There are two worlds, the world they way it should be, and the world the way it is, which one do you live in?

 

[Bearndawoods]

I live in the world the way it should be. So therefore its not a theory its a practice. My liberty isnt decided by beauracrats.

 

[Bearndawoods]

" Live in the world, not of the world"

 

[Trlsmn]

I live in the world the way it should be. So therefore its not a theory its a practice. My liberty isnt decided by beauracrats.

That's what I thought. There are idealists and realists, I am a realist. That doesn't mean I accept a lower standard, just that I prepare for the reality of any given situation.

 

[Bearndawoods]

Well i guess ill be riding my unicorn and leading an army of leprachauns in the upcoming revolution, while you are in a work camp following orders being a realist.

 

[Trlsmn]

Well i guess ill be riding my unicorn and leading an army of leprachauns in the upcoming revolution, while you are in a work camp following orders being a realist.

Ah but being a realist means I am already geared up for the revolution. The Realist will take action real action to help his situation while the Idealist will wait for the Utopian answer that will never come.

 

[Bearndawoods]

This is getting ridiculous. All I'm stating is that it is patriotic and constitutional to practice the right of private party sales, without paperwork. Youre guns don't have to be registered, shouldn't have to be registered, and that complying with such unconstitutional laws is making the problem worse. If that makes me an idealist not a realist then i guess the constitution is just a great ideal that we should get rid of because it doesn't work in a "real world"? Reminds me of whats happening politically right now. Utopian ideals and the courage to make it real is what made this country my friend.

 

[Trlsmn]

I agree with all those rights, I'm just saying CYA because the courts and the FEDs don't care that you have rights, in court you are a defendant and they want a win not justice, as stated by Cocktailer there are innocent people in jail.

I respect your right to have a different opinion as I feel free to give mine and make counterpoints.