FTF transactions...paperwork or no paperwork?

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I have read several threads about ftf transactions where some people have advocated keeping detailed receipts of the transaction. If there is no legal requirement to do this, then why do it? I'm not trying to stir anybody up, but I want to hear a good debate on the pros and cons of this practice.

To me, the beauty of the face-to-face transaction is the ability to take another firearm "off the books". This is not to say that I wouldn't do everything to insure that the transaction is legal. Once I check somebodys state DL or military ID, and have no reason to believe they can't own a firearm, WHY would I keep a record of the transaction??? Discuss...


Nathan
 
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In case it was used in a crime. I personally would like to be able to show that I actually did rid myself of the firearm. Otherwise the conversation might go like this, in simplified terms.

Did you shoot that person with your gun?
Course not, I sold it to some dude.
Yeah, sure.

If it was used in a crime, I would like to be able to HELP the police and the family of the victim, rather than be super sneaky and keep it "off the books."

Again, there is no legal requirement so its completely up to you.

In the past, I try to take a copy of the DL unless its a close friend. I always do a bill of sale.
 
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PosterGuy
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So, would you say that you advocate gun registration across the board? Because that is exactly what you are creating, in my opinion. What you are saying is that you want to make sure that the police/government can track EXACTLY where each firearm is.


Nathan

In case it was used in a crime. I personally would like to be able to show that I actually did rid myself of the firearm. Otherwise the conversation might go like this, in simplified terms.

Did you shoot that person with your gun?
Course not, I sold it to some dude.
Yeah, sure.

If it was used in a crime, I would like to be able to HELP the police and the family of the victim, rather than be super sneaky and keep it "off the books."

Again, there is no legal requirement so its completely up to you.

In the past, I try to take a copy of the DL unless its a close friend. I always do a bill of sale.
 
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You arn't letting the government track each firearm by keeping PERSONAL records. If you were required to report the sale and that information was stored in a publicly owned database then it would be. I had a friend once who sold a car and he reported the sale with the form he was required to. A couple months later the car was used in a crime and was still in his name, when the police came to his door he said " I sold the car and reported it sold". They were able to check and cleared him of any wrong doing. If your gun that you legally sold was used in a crime you could potentially have alot of heartache before you proved it wasn't yours unless you kept PERSONAL records. Its just smart.
 
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At the risk of sounding shady, I'm one for no records. Just check ID and don't sell to anyone who looks like a criminal. It's not perfect, I know. I'm usually pretty rational, but the government having ways to find guns (they can and will order you to surrender your personal records) makes me somewhat paranoid.

-Steve
 
I have read several threads about ftf transactions where some people have advocated keeping detailed receipts of the transaction. If there is no legal requirement to do this, then why do it? I'm not trying to stir anybody up, but I want to hear a good debate on the pros and cons of this practice.

To me, the beauty of the face-to-face transaction is the ability to take another firearm "off the books". This is not to say that I wouldn't do everything to insure that the transaction is legal. Once I check somebodys state DL or military ID, and have no reason to believe they can't own a firearm, WHY would I keep a record of the transaction??? Discuss...


Nathan
You can't really take a gun "off the books" unless you do not keep the buyers info. Then the buyer is safe from being detected. You are not however.

If you bought the gun from an FFL and you sell the gun, if it is used in a crime years later..............YOU will be involved in the criminal investigation.

Any gun purchased from an FFL is "Registered" to you. People will say this is not true. They are wrong.

If you don't mind being a suspect in a crime, feel free to sell FTF.
 
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If you bought the gun from an FFL and you sell the gun, if it is used in a crime years later..............YOU will be involved in the criminal investigation.

Any gun purchased from an FFL is "Registered" to you. People will say this is not true. They are wrong.

If you don't mind being a suspect in a crime, feel free to sell FTF.
There is a price to pay, but that chance is worth it to me.

-Steve
 
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At the risk of sounding shady, I'm one for no records. Just check ID and don't sell to anyone who looks like a criminal. It's not perfect, I know. I'm usually pretty rational, but the government having ways to find guns (they can and will order you to surrender your personal records) makes me somewhat paranoid.

-Steve
I am really curious as to what your definition of someone who looks criminal is, please explain this.
 
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It's not a definition, it's just a gut feeling. Not really physical, it's just the way they act. I've been around it before, it's based on my experiences in life so far. I admit that it's not perfect, but it's gotta be worth something.

-Steve
 
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I keep personal records myself. Just to cover my tai. I also like to put on the paper that the person buying is agreeing that they are legal to buy and posses the firearm. That way I cant get into trouble for selling to a felon, if it ever comes back to me
 
OP
PosterGuy
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I completely agree about the registration part. Anytime a backround check is done, a record is created. As far as a crime being committed, if I have no involvement in the crime, why would I fear a police investigation?

Nathan

You can't really take a gun "off the books" unless you do not keep the buyers info. Then the buyer is safe from being detected. You are not however.

If you bought the gun from an FFL and you sell the gun, if it is used in a crime years later..............YOU will be involved in the criminal investigation.

Any gun purchased from an FFL is "Registered" to you. People will say this is not true. They are wrong.

If you don't mind being a suspect in a crime, feel free to sell FTF.
 
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It's not a definition, it's just a gut feeling. Not really physical, it's just the way they act. I've been around it before, it's based on my experiences in life so far. I admit that it's not perfect, but it's gotta be worth something.

-Steve



I'm with Finch and Steve.

Most of the guns that would be used for *evil* are already unregistered. So we need more of those that would be used for defense that are not registred for when The Big Turnover comes to be (you get my meaning) and would therefore not be demanded.

I suspect that our right to bear arms will be questioned and revoked, and it will not effect the criminal's guns as they will be unregistered. At that time, a lot of us will have boating accidents, I'm sure.

But keeping personal records, for CYA is also a good idea as a weapon still registered in your name would make the investigate *you* extensivly if your former gun was used in a crime.

If only there weren't zombies out there...
 
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I have never sold face to face but If i did I think I would keep a small paper trail. Maybe their name and signature. If they have a CCW or ODL that number but thats it, just enough to clear my name but not something that would ever be used unless a crime was commited.
 
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Are there civil liability considerations when selling a firearm? If so, would documenting the sale (and maybe checking ID or otherwise verifying suitability of the buyer) help to mitigate this liability?
 
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I keep records to cover my @ss, like others suggested. If you call that "gun registration" then you're mistaken, but if that's your definition... sure, I'm all for it. Nathan's suggestion that this creates a paper trail for the government to find all guns is paranoid. My records are all kept in an incendiary safe and wired to CNN. I've programmed several key words such as "gun, ban, effective, immediately, surrender, required, destroyed, invasion, nazi, Bush, walmart". Any combination of four words in one story will automatically trigger the timer for the detonator. In the event of a false story, I'll have 180 minutes to key in my password before the whole thing goes up.
I want to buy your safe :D
 
I completely agree about the registration part. Anytime a backround check is done, a record is created. As far as a crime being committed, if I have no involvement in the crime, why would I fear a police investigation?

Nathan
Good question.

Silly example:
You buy a gun for $300 and keep it for a year. You decide you don't want it anymore, so you sell it for $500.

$200 profit............pretty good.

There may be a 1% chance the buyer is a felon(guesstimate) If the police have a reason to suspect you knew he was a felon, then you will be taking a lot of time answering questions and proving you followed the rules.

There may be a 1-1000 chance (guesstimate) they don't believe you and charge you with a felony (It is a felony to knowingly sell a gun to a prohibited person)

Now,

If I offered you $200 to pick a number between 1 and 1000 and if your number comes up you go to prison, would you do it?

I know you have nothing to hide, just putting the worst case out there for all to consider.

Do the police ever make mistakes?

Are innocent people ever put in jail?
 
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Good question.

Silly example:
You buy a gun for $300 and keep it for a year. You decide you don't want it anymore, so you sell it for $500.

$200 profit............pretty good.

There may be a 1% chance the buyer is a felon(guesstimate) If the police have a reason to suspect you knew he was a felon, then you will be taking a lot of time answering questions and proving you followed the rules.

There may be a 1-1000 chance (guesstimate) they don't believe you and charge you with a felony (It is a felony to knowingly sell a gun to a prohibited person)

Now,

If I offered you $200 to pick a number between 1 and 1000 and if your number comes up you go to prison, would you do it?

I know you have nothing to hide, just putting the worst case out there for all to consider.

Do the police ever make mistakes?

Are innocent people ever put in jail?
Don't you teach classes on this stuff?

Some of your points are downright scary...


Is there any precedence showing what the prosecutor would try to do in an instance where a gun was used that was sold private-party?
 
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I agree most with Finch's and Cocktailer on this issue. After all the regret from selling every gun I ever sold I don't plan on selling any more but if I did sell one it'd probably be to a CPL holder and I would create a receipt in duplicate with their CPL info on there, gun's serial number and amount paid.

If the buyer didn't want to comply then oh well have a nice day. Trying to prove a negative ("I wasn't there") is a lOT harder than producing a receipt with the buyers' info on it.

Plus with a CPL (or CHL down there in Ore) you pertty much have your anti-felon BG check at least as recently as the last issue date.

Trusting somebody because of how they look just makes me shake my head, and ask, "why are they called confidence men?" Because nobidy trusts them? no. But to each their own (turn in the interview room.)

'nuff said.:s0155:

And LOL BennyHonda I love the keywords-triggered thermite safe. Those on sale at Bi-Mart?
 
Don't you teach classes on this stuff?

Some of your points are downright scary...


Is there any precedence showing what the prosecutor would try to do in an instance where a gun was used that was sold private-party?
I don't teach classes, but as an FFL, I get the rules(and the consequences of violating them) beaten into me.

The rules seem so stupid and trivial until there is a problem. Then they become reeeeeely clear.

You say "Some of your points are downright scary... " and they don't have to be.

Everyone is welcome to call the local ATF office and talk to a compliance inspector. You can ask any question you like.

"My buddy got a DUI, can I sell him a gun?"

"I know a dude on the internet that I never met in person. How can I sell my gun to him and still be compliant?"

The ATF is very willing to help keep you from making a mistake. Most of them are "gun nuts" just like us.

Just think about it.............what would be a cool job? Maybe working for the ATF and having to go around a check out new guns/ Machine guns/ silencers/ explosives/ grenade launchers/ etc.

The bad part of their job is when there is a problem. then all the paperwork starts.................


I'm sure 99.9999% of the time FTF transactions will be fine. I just want people to be aware, and be safe.
 

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