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Frontsight training

Discussion in 'Education & Training' started by BUZO71, Sep 7, 2009.

  1. BUZO71

    BUZO71 Emerald Valley, Oregon New Member

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    Has anyone been here? I was thinking about getting a membership but it seems someone told me this guy was having legal issues. It seems like a fairly decent deal looking at Thunder Ranch, Blackwater, etc.
     
  2. wichaka

    wichaka Wa State Well-Known Member

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    I would stay away from that place. Have observed some of the classes, and some of the techniques they use are questionable.

    Go with Insights, OFA, or FAofS.
     
  3. BUZO71

    BUZO71 Emerald Valley, Oregon New Member

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    Yeah, FAS would be ok... not really impressed with OFA... they're ok for beginning shooters. Which techniques specifically?
     
  4. BUZO71

    BUZO71 Emerald Valley, Oregon New Member

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    So, no one with actual experience with this place?
     
  5. Randini

    Randini Salem Member

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    Yeah this guy started Frontsight with the Firearm training and then started plans on a Master plan comunity, took peoples money but the community was never built, he's been getting sued for some time now it just keeps getting dragged out.
     
  6. wichaka

    wichaka Wa State Well-Known Member

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    I'd have to go back thru my notes on them, let me dig them up.

    Their basic courses seemed ok, if I recall correctly. It was some of their advanced stuff stuff that was a bit on the dangerous side of things.
     
  7. parallax

    parallax eugene, or-gun Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter

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    I went there a few yeaars ago for basic automatic weapons training. faucility is the desert in nevada, i believe it was west of vegas,( i stayed in vegas at night after the end of ths days classes.) learned some good stuff, but was kind of nervous about some of the students there with no real weapons background, handling autos, Since then have taken some other training, with a different facility, and realized frontsight was not so good. Also they are having financial difficulties and try to get ya to buy a liftime membership, gold membership, etc.etc.etc.
     
  8. doug

    doug Tacoma Member

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    lots of commentary at www.defensivecarry.com if you do a search. Mostly good about the training, not so good about the character of the founder. My disclaimer is I have no personal experience just read lots from defensivecarry.com I did not stay at a Holiday Inn last night, so take everything I say with a grain.
     
  9. thelendog

    thelendog Milwaukie Member

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    just google "ignatius piazza", that's all the info you need.
     
  10. fromotoc

    fromotoc Downtown Portland, OR Member

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    Scientology FTW!
     
  11. MikeIsh

    MikeIsh Portland Member

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    I have a buddy who belongs. He sings their praises all the time to me. He has talked me into going, and taking my son. If you look at Amazon.com search for front sight or firearms training, there are many training, and memberships for sale. There is lawyer crap going on there, I have heard the guys he hired to manage some of the properties were less than honorable. I haven't heard if it is going well or poorly. But you can buy a two day handgun training for $100 from them. Amazon has the four day for lots less than the $2000. good luck
     
  12. keitha300wsm

    keitha300wsm Lebanon, OR Member

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    I'm going back in November, I'm going down for a 3rd time for a 4 day handgun class. I learn new stuff everytime and have a lot of fun. It's a very safe, controlled environment. Classes are scripted w/very little down time. About 30% women in the two classes I've taken. 400 students the first time, 250 the 2nd. Break up 40 per range. All ages from 16yr to 80yr most 40yr - 60yr range. I got a lot out of the class time learning when to shoot and what to expect if I did. It really made me think through different situations before they happen. They have a $1200 course where you get a semi auto xd and all the gear you'll need for the class plus 5 days of training and a utah cwp. All you need is 800 rounds of ammo and you're ready to go. They have alot of Email specials so I wouldn't get a membership while at class, if you want to go back. My shooting skills improved a bunch, easy 2 shots to center mass from holster in 1.5 sec. I know I must sound like a salesman, but I really look forward to going and I would highly recommend.
     
  13. MikeIsh

    MikeIsh Portland Member

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    I have heard that from everyone I meet who has been!

    I can't wait til my son gets some time off so we can go.
     
  14. ikona

    ikona west of pdx Member

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    Why not try the Firearms Academy of Seattle and take a class with a guest instructor like Ken Hackathorn or Massad Ayoob? MUCH cheaper and a class by a known top tier instructor. Or even Clint Smith down at Thunder Ranch. Both those are a lot less money and taught by instructors that are well known in the industry and get the training from the source rather than a wannabee. Frontsite is too much money and the instructors are not even in the same league.
     
  15. keitha300wsm

    keitha300wsm Lebanon, OR Member

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    It' called FRONTSIGHT. How can you critize some place you have never been or know nothing about. I wish I had had FS training 30 years ago. These are not wannabees, they are retired military, sheriff and LEO that are willing to share there expertise and experience with us. FS also trains 250 to 450 students every week including law enforcement and military personel. My first trip there I shared a range with several military on leave, sheriff deputy, DEA officer, a veterinarian and wife, and an emergency room physician. If you want to maintain any credibility, comment on something you know about.
     
  16. ikona

    ikona west of pdx Member

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    Sorry to irritate you or cause you too much grief but I know plenty about the place. Sorry that I misspelled the name, that happens sometimes. But the simple fact is that I suggested that there would be better places to spend one's hard earned money than at a place that has had as much money issues as FRONTSIGHT or Mr. Piazza have. Having trained and taught with credible credible instructors I know a little about what is good training and what is not. And since my son is a Tennessee state instructor, and has trained with top tier instructors, and was sought by FRONTSIGHT (is that better?) to be an instructor, and has been there and seen what exactly they do, perhaps I might have a little more information about the place than some. Save some money and head off to FAS, InSight,Thunder Ranch, Lethal Force Institute, Gunsite, or or get invited to the NTI, or train with Farnham, Givens, Hamilton, Cirrillo (now deceased), or Col. Jeff Cooper (also deceased), or the myriads of those who have been in the training industry and have a proven track record before you get too mad. The OP was asking an opinion and I gave one, how is it that you got so bent out of shape over an opinion? FRONTSIGHT (happy now?) training is overly expensive and offers nothing that one can't get better training for a better price from a better instructor. Don't get mad at me because someone chose to go to a overpriced school and fell for a "free" XD, belt, and t-shirt offer to get them in. But this is America, go where you want to. I simply want the most bang for my buck.:thumbup:
     
  17. keitha300wsm

    keitha300wsm Lebanon, OR Member

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    The thing that upsets me is being critical about FS training when you have never been there. They try very hard and do get top notch instructors, your son must be in that catagory, if they offered him a position. There are always deals at FS for the first class you take, $100 for 2day class or gun & equipment plus 5 days training w/ utah CC license for $1199. Any time I make a purchase, I shop for the best value. I seperate the FS financial from the training, they are seperate issues. To become a member from there websight at regular prices is probably not a very good value. Some one looking for a life membership or any long term relationship w/ FS may want to look hard at their financial situation. To take a class from FS I think anyone would find the experience well worth the time and money. Spend a hundred bucks and 2 days and then tell me about their training.
     
  18. ikona

    ikona west of pdx Member

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    If someone wants to spend their money in a certain way who am I to stand in the way. My opinion is that why take a class from those who teach from the book rather than take a class from those who wrote the book. We have a great opportunity to still train under Ayoob, Farnham, Hackathorn, et. al., those who have fantastic reputations. I feel very fortunate to have taken training from Jim Cirrillo before he passed on, and my time with the others are also high on the list. Front Sight does not have the same reputation to me, their money issues and all the other problems combined with unknown instructors are not a draw. Again, why not take advantage that one has now to train with the big dogs?
     
  19. keitha300wsm

    keitha300wsm Lebanon, OR Member

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    Found this, is this the same guy that wrote the book? source. Wichaka Sept 01 2008

    I'm not going to go over every article he's written, but here's a taste of what I mean. I originally wrote this back in '05, in response to an article Ayoob posted in Combat handguns. But his style hasn't changed.........

    Ayoobs spectacle......uh.....I mean article.......
    Self-Defense & The Law A Court-Proof Trigger? The case for the Double-Action Only; 16 Case Reports.

    In the Feb 2005 issue of Combat Handguns, Ayboob jacks his jaws as usual and mixes fact with his own made up fiction that gives the reader an impression that a DAO is the only way to go. What is also interesting is the sub title on the page where the article starts, "Pistol Design is important in court - sixteen cases show you why!"

    From the above you would think that there are 16 "cases" where the trigger and/or gun design was liability **** or saved the shooter from the same.
    Read on...........

    Case 1; A newspaper headline saying a gun was blamed, but the Officer was cleared of any wrong doing and no follow-up against the gun's maker, Glock. Both the officer and Glock were clear. So is the Glock and its trigger court proof? It survived this legal process, but Ayboob wants you to believe that using a Glock would cause problems.........WOW!

    Case 2; An Officer fired a DA Ruger during entry, did not decock, then struggled with unarmed suspect and the gun discharged killing the suspect. The officer was not charged with anything, nor does Ayboob mention it. He did point out a massive lawsuit, but failed to give the outcome. We don't know if the trigger and/or gun is court-proof or not.

    Case 3; An unarmed suspect is killed during a struggle with an Officer with a DA Sig. In trial the officer was acquitted. Oddly enough, Ayboob writes that many observers felt that had the pistol been DAO, the Officer would not have been falsely accused. The fact of the matter is that the trigger did survive court, something Ayboob left out........Again!

    Case 4; An officer fired a Beretta intentionally once, and then unintentionally once. The department switches to Glocks. This case has nothing to with court.........why was it mentioned in an article about court proofing your gun!

    Case 5; A citizen kills a suspect with a "light-triggered" High Standard .22 target pistol. He fired the first shot intentionally and a second shot unintentionally after the suspect turned away. The citizen was not indicted, so his light trigger must be okay? Not according to Ayboob. The guy was financially ruined and Ayoob says that a gun with a heavy DAO trigger could have prevented the incident. More jaw jacking......as the trigger did survive the legal processes, but Ayboob still thinks it was a bad thing.
    A heavier trigger may or may not have prevented a second shot as Ayboob fails to elaborate on the subject. It isn't the gun or trigger at fault, its the shooter, and the shooter wasn't indicted. Remember one of the basic gun safety rules; KEEP YOUR FINGER OFF THE TRIGGER UNTIL YOUR SIGHTS ARE ON TARGET!

    Case 6; A Deputy shot himself twice with his Beretta, while reholstering with his finger on the trigger after shooting an attacking dog. This happens with revolvers and autos as well, so Ayboobs conclusion that a DAO trigger would have prevented this is stupid. Again, this didn't go to court.......so why is it in the article?

    Cases 7-14 are Glocks being put into wrong hoslters and discharging. Think a heavier trigger would have prevented this? It happens to revolvers too.
    Cases 7-14 didn't go to court again Ayboob.........so why the inclusion?

    Case 15; A gun mishandled by an officer that discharged. It didn't go to court either.........see a pattern?

    Case 16; A friend of Ayboob's. No shots fired, and nobody went to court.

    Results?

    3 cases went to grand jury or court and none returned any type of guilty verdict.

    1 case resulted in a lawsuit, but we don't know the results.

    12 cases didn't go to court.

    Ayboobs arguments are very poor for DAO court-proof trigger.
    In Case 16 no shot was fired and he includes it as a point for DAO triggers, the boy is off his rocker........how can he say this if nothing happened?
    He's supposing again..........as usual.

    He makes a case for DAO, but routinely carries a 1911 cocked & locked.......go figure.

    Ayboob is supposed to be a court expert. I hope he does a better job in court than he does here.........

    Back in 1991 Ayboob was a guest at our Wa. State Firearms Instructors week long seminar and 3 gun shoot. Its put on every year and we invite guest instructors........in the past we've had Cooper, Taylor, Hackathorn, Clint Smith, Awerbuck, Todd Jarrett.......and many other 'big' names in the industry.
    Along with having classes for us, we put on a friendly 3-gun competition.
    That year when Ayboob was there, he entered himself in our 3 gun shoot. He had an AD with his rifle, while other shooters were still getting ready for a particular stage........so many of us didn't have hearing protection on. He just looked around as if it was someone else, then when called on the carpet about it........he made up alot of excuses, then made a fuss when the Range Masters told him he was done because of it. The guy has no class, and many of writings are suspect.

    They guy has wore out his welcome in alot of the L.E. circles across the nation......... he's no longer thought of so highly as he was many years ago.
     
  20. eriknemily

    eriknemily Tillamook County (Cheese!) Member

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    I'm kind of confused:confused: He thinks people should use glocks or other striker fired pistols or they shouldn't? It's hard to make sense of these last few posts. They're pumped full of testosterone:D