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From the other side of the fence "Shoot first or be killed"

Discussion in 'Legal & Political Archive' started by chariot13, Mar 8, 2012.

  1. chariot13

    chariot13 Near Eugene/Springfield Well-Known Member

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    Last edited: Feb 9, 2016
  2. Toxic6

    Toxic6 Higher then a PDX hipster (~10,000 ft higher) Active Member

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    I thought the supreme court already decided a long time ago that citizens were justified in using force to resist unlawful arrest? Why would it be any different in your home?

    (afterthought...i think i see what they are doing there, but it's bs. They want to counter already existing laws through bad examples maybe? If getting a warrant required as much homework as it should (maybe used to), there shouldn't be as many issues with illegal search & seizure or unlawful arrests.)
     
  3. dmancornell

    dmancornell Portland, OR New Member

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    The sheer contempt these cops have for "Mr. Homeowner" is staggering.

    One cop says, "Our biggest fear in the police world is that a great many people will not educate themselves as to the narrow scope of this legislation". In the same article, the reporter states, "In virtually every documented case when police did not have legal authority to enter a home, they believed they did". Then the same cop actually says, "Civil litigation has always been a safe and effective way for citizens to be compensated for official errors or malfeasance,”

    So the cop expects the civilians to go limp and obey or risk of getting a beatdown or worse, because the law is too complicated for us dimwitted peasants, but when the cops screw up, we peasants have to fight them through the legal system, and at the end of the maze, face some government bureaucrat wielding a "justified" stamp.

    The chutzpah of it all. And they wonder why they are hated.
     
    chemist and (deleted member) like this.
  4. chariot13

    chariot13 Near Eugene/Springfield Well-Known Member

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    Ya, its a challenge to existing law. Which is why the house passed the bill to clarify existing law. But whats odd is the police departments are letting their spokesmen take the stance, that it is ok for them to do an illegal search & unlawful arrest. That everyone should just go along with whatever the officer wants at that perticular moment. Anotherwards if an officer wrongly sends a bullet your way, don't resist by trying to avoid it, take it like a good obedient citizen.
     
  5. dtcgc32

    dtcgc32 central oregon Member

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    its seems to me that if the cops actually new the laws they were hired to uphold a lot of these problems would occur. If cops would/could use restraint instead of over zealous actions this legislation woudl not be necessary. From the quotes of the cops it seems they go on every call assuming the worst and want to able to over react accordingly
     
  6. Kevatc

    Kevatc Oregon Well-Known Member

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    Hopefull the no knock warrants will go the way of the dinosaurs (for those of you who believe dinosaurs were an evolutionary line of life that went extinct).
     
  7. mjbskwim

    mjbskwim Salmon,Idaho Well-Known Member

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    They were,unless you are one that buys into the fairy tales some king named after himself

    OK,so you have a normal family,the cops come to the wrong door,start to break it down.They come in and kill a kid or you wife.
    No worries,you have legal recourse.This isn't a problem.
    Well Imma gunna let some lead fly. Yes I may die,but if they come into the wrong house and threaten my family? It was worth it.

    Now you have the POS' in the bad neighborhood.They already think,or are already willing to kill some LEO to get away.
    Nothing is going to change except maybe the LEO actually makes sure that the right house is being attacked.

    If they think there will be any problem with this,they just need to make sure what house is the bad guy's house.Just a little more home work,that's all.
     
  8. moose

    moose northwet coast Well-Known Member

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    Rather than pass such a law as this, (doing B trying to get A to happen) shouldnt they be trying to make the police more accountable?

    Right now, they can kick your door down, kill your dog, handcuff your wife and kids just to decide its the wrong address. Then, without even saying "just be glad we didn't kill you" leave (but not before taking a look around just in case there's something to arrest you on).

    Like dmancornell said, and they wonder why they're hated.
     
    chemist and (deleted member) like this.
  9. Haysuse

    Haysuse Headin' to Hell Member

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    I believe in dinosaurs!
     
  10. Misterbill

    Misterbill Yakima County, Washington New Member

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    This bill does exactly what the cops are saying: It will result in more deaths.

    This is a stupid assed bill.

    The problem is with the warrant system. THAT is a problem failry easily fixed. The "solution offered by this dumbass hoosier doesn't fix anything. All it guarantees is that cops will be MORE trigger-happy and more residents will feel justified in their suicidal attempts to resist overwhelming lethal force.

    The only people coming down in the right-side of this bill will be innocent people who are killed by the cops. This bill will result in more, not less of those cases, which was the issue in the first place. If you're stupid enough to think that you will prevail in an armed confrontation with multiple, well-trained and extremely well equipped police officers, you will have a short life-span if it ever comes to you testing out your false assumptions.

    -You will die.

    Whatever happens to the cops afterwards will be small consolation to your family. You will make an assumption based on internet bravado that leads to your death.

    -DON'T RESIST THE COPS. -YOU WILL DIE.

    The time to decide who was right or wrong is long after the fact. This is what courts exist for. Resisting an armed invasion by people you reasonalbl;y believe are the cops is an invitation to a short life-span.
     
  11. Toxic6

    Toxic6 Higher then a PDX hipster (~10,000 ft higher) Active Member

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    I always wondered what some think will happen even if they won the first skirmish. Assuming you were setting ready to hold of the police (which means they definitely did not do some homework) and assuming you meet their force with greater force. You drive them back and/or kill the entire entry team. Now what? Your life in society is pretty much done, you are going to have more and more sent after you (all holding grudges, all shooting first). Your assets will be frozen. You will be pointed out of crowds. Do you flee into the wilderness to die like an animal? Do you make your final stand in a public place risking innocent life? Do you just give up and hope you make it to court alive to plead your case?

    I have thought about it like everyone else. I can't say for sure what I would do if someone kicks the door in at random, starts yelling or maybe shooting. Hopefully it never happens.
     
  12. Mutoman

    Mutoman North Bend Active Member

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    Sometimes these irrational bills are merely a means of attracting attention to an issue when all other means have been exhausted.
     
  13. iusmc2002

    iusmc2002 Colville, WA Active Member

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    So, instead, it's better to lay down and take it, then fight the bubbleguming GOVERNMENT goons, OUT OF YOUR OWN POCKET, while they are financed by taxes OUT OF YOUR POCKET. That makes a lot of bubbleguming sense. So you fight and MAYBE die on your own ground; or your fight them in court, out of pocket, potentially lose and then you have no money, so you've now lost everything anyway. Lose-lose situation for us commoners. Might as well shoot it out and make your message felt.
     
  14. Kevatc

    Kevatc Oregon Well-Known Member

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    Call me stupid or naive but I'll take my chances that the courts wil be fair and impartial and that I could successfully file a civil suit. I am not willing to get in a gun fight where there is a 99.9999% chance that I am going to develop multiple extra holes and leaks in my body.
     
  15. dmancornell

    dmancornell Portland, OR New Member

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    Fair enough, but the track record indicates the courts will pretty much accede to any kind of police brutality as a matter of professional courtesy, because the law is deliberately written to give the police all the benefit of the doubt, and absolutely none to the civilians.

    The only way a civilian can "beat" the system is if there is both massive public outrage and overwhelming evidence. Both of those can be actively countered by the state by propaganda and tampering respectively (see the Jose Guerena case for an example of both). And even if the civilian "wins", they are paid off with taxpayer money, so we all lose.

    So good luck with that.
     
  16. Kevatc

    Kevatc Oregon Well-Known Member

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    And if you choose to shoot it out then enjoy your funeral.
     
  17. iusmc2002

    iusmc2002 Colville, WA Active Member

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    Ok, you're stupid and naive. Feel better?
     
  18. DonovanJay

    DonovanJay Southern Oregon Member

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    I think if your house is surrounded by police, its time to think about what is best for your wife and kids.. I'd just as soon die then let anyone lay a hand on my family, but these aren't marauders, thugs, or gangbangers.. they're cops... something far more dangerous. I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm not any good to my wife or family after getting riddled with bullets or put in prison, so I try to refrain from doing anything that might take me away from my family. That being said, anyone who tries to storm my castle with weapons might find subsequent holes in their chest. Don't shoot at cops though, it will absolutely hurt your family somehow.
     
  19. Stomper

    Stomper Oceania Rising White Is The New Brown Silver Supporter

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    There is merit to what you are saying, BUT sadly there may come a time when this may become a needful thing. I'm sure there were a lot of European Jews before/during WWII who said, "DON'T RESIST THE COPS. -YOU WILL DIE." Hopefully this legislation can help stem the growing trend and attitude of this scenerio.
     
  20. Misterbill

    Misterbill Yakima County, Washington New Member

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    And there goes Godwin.

    I know quite a few police officers and have yet to meet one that's just itching to put Joe Homeowner in the ground.

    They are doing their jobs. Sometimes they do it very poorly. Mistakes get made. This is what courts are for. If you're really stupid enough to think they''re coming to put you in the FEMA death camps, by all means resist with armed force. I won't cry for you. Crazy people with guns often come to bad ends.