Fragmentation or Penetration?

[Riot]

I opt for controled penetration with expansion and maximum hydrostatic shock/energy dump. .357 does this well, my home is situated with the side of my neighbors brick garage as a backstop for any likley field of fire. I've always carried Speer 125gr Gold Dots, but recently switched to those new Hornady 125gr Critical Defense. They have substantially less flash than the Speers but they're not crimped? I know a GP100 should be plenty heavy, but... I don't really anticipate EVER needing to shoot through car doors, however in the woods I carry 185gr hardcast LWNFP Beartooth's at well over 1300fps out of my 4" GP100. How's that for penetration?

Imagine shooting through your own car door...where do you think most female attacks happen? It's usually in the parking lot.

 

[jim97701]

I use JHP Ammo in my 9mms. and my 38 spcl. If that doesnt work the Saiga 12 will And I wont kill my neighbors.

 

[hariph creek]

Yes but it seems unlikely that anyone is going to have time to switch mags to that second one loaded with FMJ. So they can then shoot an attacker through their car door. I hope that dilusional fantasies aren't indicative of actual training and preperation.

 

[trainsktg]

In my 9mm, I run an equal mix of alternating HP and FMJ in the same magazine.

Keith

 

[The Quiet Man]

Question: Is your primary pistol be loaded with ammo that is likely to fragment, or with ammo that expands and penetrates deeply? Elaborate why you made your choice.

Context: home defense, personal protection, Bipedal repellant

Rules: Pistols only
"one-mag-if-each" is not an applicable answer

Good responses form everybody. Let me answer Riots question, and then throw my hat into the ring...

@Riot

Not trying to say that one couldn't or shouldn't carry one mag of each of their favs, but to me personally, it's a little redundant. I have a hard time envisioning a realistic scenario involving likely Portland threats where the bullet, and not the shooter, would decide who wins the gunfight. I also don't like the idea of changing the harmonics of my firearm in the MIDDLE of a life or death situation. The point-of-impact, recoil, muzzle flash all change when you put different bullets in the pipe. Some changes are more drastic that others. If your first mag is loaded with Winchester Subsonics, and the second mag is Buffalo Bore, you've just changed things a lot. Also, training with two loads would be a little pricey for me

Between fragmentation and expansion\penetration, I prefer fragmentation. I think it minimizes the risk to non-targets. I don't worry so much about the bullet hitting the target, passing through, and than striking an innocent. But because I am so much more likely to miss the target, I do not want my bullet hitting the kitchen window of the house 40 yards down the street, or hit the side of the schoolbus waiting at the red light behind the target.

Remember- according to the FBI, only one in five bullets strikes the target during law enforcement shootings. 1 hit for 4 misses. Most CHL holders are foolish to think that they will somehow be Annie Oakley under life-threatening pressure, and that missing the target is somehow 'below' them. This, I believe, is not a healthy attitude; for it is better to be aware of ones likelyhood to miss the target, and therefore take extra care to not miss the target, than it is to let ones ego and misconceptions hurt an unintended party.

As far as wound patterns, I'll take fragmentation hands down. When the projectile begins to break, thus begins the creation of multiple wound channels within the target, increasing the chance of permanent cavities in vital organs and arteries, leading to what I think would be a faster incapacitation, and a quicker stop to the threat presented.

I carry 2 mags of DoubleTap 10MM 135gr. Nosler JHP@ an advertised 1608 fps. This load is known for limited penetration and violent fragmentation.

I have been following this thread and am still at a loss with the use of the term "fragmentation" when it comes to common handgun bullets. In my mind, FMJ penetrates while JHP expand and produce lower penetration. Hand grenades fragment. Yes, I understand the limited number of truly "frangible" bullets out there (and their intended uses) but the context the term is being used in on this thread still confuses me.

Then I read that the Nosler 135 gr. JHP is "known for limited penetration and violent fragmentation" and I am further puzzled. A quick look at the Nolser website shows that bullet after firing and it appears to have retained most of its original weight after expanding beautifully. The Nosler words are "reliable expansion and maximum accuracy across a broad velocity range".

<broken link removed>

Is the term "fragmentation" being misused or am I misunderstanding something?

 

[SonicBlue03]

Black Talons. I want maximum soft tissue trauma inflicted on my opponent.

 

[Riot]

Is the term "fragmentation" being misused or am I misunderstanding something?

Nope, you're on it...when I think "fragmentation" I think the core seperating from the jacket (hence my reference to MagSafe).

 

[The Quiet Man]

Nope, you're on it...when I think "fragmentation" I think the core seperating from the jacket (hence my reference to MagSafe).

Yeah, I was trying to be polite Either the subject is to esoteric for most people... or they just want to talk about what they carry without worrying about terminology.

In that vein, I generally carry Black Talon's in .45 ACP and 9mm auto-loaders, heavy-bullet handloads in big bore revolvers, and Critical Defense (with a couple of FMJ rounds sprinkled in) on the very odd occasions that I tote a little .380 ACP.

I enjoyed your informed comments.

 

[DeathRattle]

frag&#183;men&#183;ta&#183;tion (frgmn-tshn, -mn-)
n.
1. The act or process of breaking into fragments.
2. The scattering of the fragments of an exploding bomb or other projectile.
3. Computer Science The scattering of parts of a file throughout a disk, as when the operating system breaks up the file and fits it into the spaces left vacant by previously deleted files.


These are 10MM gel results from Mike Mcnett, load deveoper for Doubletap Ammo:

DoubleTap 10mm
135gr JHP @ 1600fps - 11.0" / .70" frag nasty
155gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1475fps - 13.5" / .88"
165gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1400fps - 14.25" / 1.02"
165gr Golden Saber JHP @ 1425fps - 14.75" / .82"
180gr Golden Saber JHP @ 1330fps - 16.0" / .85"
180gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1300fps - 15.25" / .96"
200gr XTP @ 1250fps - 19.5" / .72"
230gr Equalizer @ 1040fps - 11.0" and 17.0" / .62" and .40"

"Then I read that the Nosler 135 gr. JHP is "known for limited penetration and violent fragmentation" and I am further puzzled. A quick look at the Nolser website shows that bullet after firing and it appears to have retained most of its original weight after expanding beautifully. The Nosler words are "reliable expansion and maximum accuracy across a broad velocity range".

Bullet makers say a lot of things. I don't know if Nosler tested it at 1608 fps (mcnetts claimed velocity), producing 775 friggin' foot pounds.


"Yeah, I was trying to be polite Either the subject is to esoteric for most people... or they just want to talk about what they carry without worrying about terminology."

No need to spare my feelings with politeness. Just lemme know whats on your mind instead of beating around the bush.

 

[laney1566]

With my .380 I carry FMJ for penetration. A JHP for .380 especially in winter months might be asking too much of this caliber.
With my 38/44 I want BOTH so I carry a handloaded 158gr LSWCHP.
I really depends on the gun IMO.

 

[The Quiet Man]

frag·men·ta·tion (frgmn-tshn, -mn-)
n.
1. The act or process of breaking into fragments.
2. The scattering of the fragments of an exploding bomb or other projectile.
3. Computer Science The scattering of parts of a file throughout a disk, as when the operating system breaks up the file and fits it into the spaces left vacant by previously deleted files.


These are 10MM gel results from Mike Mcnett, load deveoper for Doubletap Ammo:

DoubleTap 10mm
135gr JHP @ 1600fps - 11.0" / .70" frag nasty
155gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1475fps - 13.5" / .88"
165gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1400fps - 14.25" / 1.02"
165gr Golden Saber JHP @ 1425fps - 14.75" / .82"
180gr Golden Saber JHP @ 1330fps - 16.0" / .85"
180gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1300fps - 15.25" / .96"
200gr XTP @ 1250fps - 19.5" / .72"
230gr Equalizer @ 1040fps - 11.0" and 17.0" / .62" and .40"

"Then I read that the Nosler 135 gr. JHP is "known for limited penetration and violent fragmentation" and I am further puzzled. A quick look at the Nolser website shows that bullet after firing and it appears to have retained most of its original weight after expanding beautifully. The Nosler words are "reliable expansion and maximum accuracy across a broad velocity range".

Bullet makers say a lot of things. I don't know if Nosler tested it at 1608 fps (mcnetts claimed velocity), producing 775 friggin' foot pounds.


"Yeah, I was trying to be polite Either the subject is to esoteric for most people... or they just want to talk about what they carry without worrying about terminology."

No need to spare my feelings with politeness. Just lemme know whats on your mind instead of beating around the bush.

My issue is with using the word "fragmentation" as a term that has application in general self-defense ammunition. Modern hollow point bullets are made to expand/mushroom and retain as much of their weight as possible. The good ones retain close to 100% which means they do not "fragment", nor are they designed to do so.

Yes, there are people like McNett working on the "fringes" who claim to get "frag nasty" results when pushing the Nosler 135 gr HP beyond what the manufacturer designed it for. I found the McNett statements you quoted on ar15armory and also other folks chrony test on the same website which show his load as moving at 1466 on average rather than the 1605 he claims. Nosler says their 135 gr HP will expand and hold its weight at 1400 fps so I suppose it is possible to "blow it up" if pushed into the 1600 fps range. Then again, it appears there is some controversy as to how fast the Double Taps really are. You don't want to believe what Nosler says about their bullets but swallow what McNett says about his product. Interesting.

In any regard, use of the term "fragmentation" in regard to 99+% of the premium self-defense handgun ammunition is incorrect. Using the term as though it is useful when picking self-defense ammo off the shelf is incorrect. Nothing more was on my mind. Thanks for the "definition" though. Many of us who just fell off the turnip truck find is useful.

 

[gehrheart]

Extreme Shock - The World's Most Advanced Ammunition


quality JHP for me. I like them to hold together.

FMJ ball sometimes as well.

Spare mags will have same ammo as in the pipe.
Why, because it works.

 

[DeathRattle]

First, I should've titled the thread 'Fragmentation versus Expansion'. I think that's whats throwing you off. Fragmentation is a performance characteristic, just like expansion."

You don't want to believe what Nosler says about their bullets but swallow what McNett says about his product. Interesting."

DId I, or did I not, use the word claimed when describing Mcnetts load evaluation? I'm well aware of the velocity discrepencies with DoubleTap's ammo.

"The good ones retain close to 100&#37; which means they do not "fragment", nor are they designed to do so."

This is your opinion, one which I disagree with. In my opinion, the 'good ones' are the ones that fragment within the target.

"Many of us who just fell off the turnip truck find is useful."

Don't forget to dust yourself off...