FPE foot pounds of energy

[belshawelk]

You're correct but using the wrong part of the math equation. Mass is what you're talking about.

Mass*Velocity = Energy

True, what what is the answer to your equation? Energy

Thanks for clarifying, just the exact reason I hate small calibers for elk and such. The 6.5 is a perfect example of a great cartridge, being used for something it was never intended for. It doesn't carry the energy for what most people THINK they are capable of hunting at.

yes we can argue distances, skill, ethics and all that stuff. We can argue 9mm vs 10mm. In the end its about delivering as much energy ( ok MASS/Velocity) as possible to the best location possible to achieve the best results.

 

[Koda]

Thanks for clarifying, just the exact reason I hate small calibers for elk and such. The 6.5 is a perfect example of a great cartridge, being used for something it was never intended for. It doesn't carry the energy for what most people THINK they are capable of hunting at.

so what is the energy needed then to kill an elk?

 

[pharmseller]

Well lets put it this way. Do you want to get ran over by a bicyclist at 40 MPH or a mack truck doing the same. How about a train moving 30.What do you think it going to work out best for you.

Or do you want to get shot with a .22 at 1500 PFS/ at point blank at 150PFE. Or get hit by a 300WM at same velocity at 1,000 yards with 500FPE

Velocity is USELESS without energy. Go drop a nail and a hammer from you waist on your foot. Both with hit at the exact same time. Same velocty See what hurts more. Heck even throw the nail so its going faster.

Energy is the dependent variable, energy changes as a function of velocity. Without velocity there is no energy. I haven't looked at energy tables since I realized that, often, energy just tells you how hard the bullet hits the ground after it zipzips through both lungs.

Again, my experience only, but when you shoot a bull behind the shoulder with a 300 Weatherby Mag and it just starts to calmly walk away, it leads to questions regarding the validity of energy. Out of five bulls I've killed with the 300 Weatherby Mag (all 180 grain Partitions) only one was impressed enough to go down in his tracks. One got the pee knocked out of him, one ran off (see above), three went a ways but not far.

Really no different than my experience with the 7mm-08, except none of them went as far as the Cascades example.

 

[belshawelk]

Energy is the dependent variable, energy changes as a function of velocity. Without velocity there is no energy. I haven't looked at energy tables since I realized that, often, energy just tells you how hard the bullet hits the ground after it zipzips through both lungs.

Again, my experience only, but when you shoot a bull behind the shoulder with a 300 Weatherby Mag and it just starts to calmly walk away, it leads to questions regarding the validity of energy. Out of five bulls I've killed with the 300 Weatherby Mag (all 180 grain Partitions) only one was impressed enough to go down in his tracks. One got the pee knocked out of him, one ran off (see above), three went a ways but not far.

Really no different than my experience with the 7mm-08, except none of them went as far as the Cascades example.

I agree 100% with you. I have been hunting and been been involved in many different aspects. I have seen elks get hammered by 7mm, 300wm and many others. I used to shoot a 300WM, Had good luck with it, but had a few that I needed to hit again, some hard to track along ways. One i took out both lungs, clipped the hearts and found it 1 mile away ( literally) the other I hit the lungs and liver. Didn't go quite as far but it wasn't enjoyable in the bottom of a canyon. One I lost and swore I would never loose another. At the time I was shooting 180 gr 300WM. Since then I upped my rifle and shoot a 200Gr solid copper with much more energy ( and yes velocity). Last 4 elk I hit all in the shoulders. None took a step, none needed another shot.

Its just me and my opinion doesn't mean anything. I just thank any animals we take deserve the best from our end to end it quickly.

maybe I am just older and wiser, or foolish in my thinking, but I hope to never track another animal for myself, I will for others I can guarantee that.

 

[pharmseller]

Thanks for clarifying, just the exact reason I hate small calibers for elk and such. The 6.5 is a perfect example of a great cartridge, being used for something it was never intended for. It doesn't carry the energy for what most people THINK they are capable of hunting at.

Boy howdy, don't tell the Scandinavians, they've been killing elk-sized moose for 130 years with the 6.5x55 Swede.

 

[pharmseller]

I agree 100% with you. I have been hunting and been been involved in many different aspects. I have seen elks get hammered by 7mm, 300wm and many others. I used to shoot a 300WM, Had good luck with it, but had a few that I needed to hit again, some hard to track along ways. One i took out both lungs, clipped the hearts and found it 1 mile away ( literally) the other I hit the lungs and liver. Didn't go quite as far but it wasn't enjoyable in the bottom of a canyon. One I lost and swore I would never loose another. At the time I was shooting 180 gr 300WM. Since then I upped my rifle and shoot a 200Gr solid copper with much more energy ( and yes velocity). Last 4 elk I hit all in the shoulders. None took a step, none needed another shot.

Its just me and my opinion doesn't mean anything. I just thank any animals we take deserve the best from our end to end it quickly.

maybe I am just older and wiser, or foolish in my thinking, but I hope to never track another animal for myself, I will for others I can guarantee that.

My two fastest kills on elk have been with the 7mm-08.

I've kilt elk with 7mm-08, 7mm Rem Mag, 30-06, and 300 Weatherby. At least three per cartridge. Granted, that's not a large sample size, but it's beginning to show a trend.

 

[osprey]

Fpe is not the end all in the equation for killing big game and should be only used as a very rough guideline. More important is selecting a bullet that will expand down to the velocity remaining at the furthest distance you intend to shoot. One of the quickest kills I have witnessed was a deer I shot with a bullet traveling at 980 fps and about 1080 fpe.

 

[Andy54Hawken]

I have no idea of the numbers....nor do I want to know either.

I do know that any of the game that I have taken with my .54 Hawken rifle and its 80 - 100 grain hunting charge and lead round ball... has not complained....or taken more than one shot to kill it.
Game taken :
Grouse
Deer
Antelope
Elk
Black Bear
Ranges have been from a little less than 50 yards to around 165 yards.

Hunting is more about hunting...as in knowing how to hunt and what to hunt with...and less about tables , numbers and such.
Andy

 

[P7M13]

Can we all just agree that if it doesn't start with a 4 and end in a 5, Jesus didn't make it

Devil though he needed something herkier, so made the 454....

 

[Lennie]

I havent seen any evidence that shock is what kills.

Hydrostatic shock

Hydrostatic shock or hydraulic shock describes the observation that a penetrating projectile can produce remote wounding and incapacitating effects in living targets through a hydraulic effect in their liquid-filled tissues, in addition to local effects in tissue caused by direct impact. There...

hunting.fandom.com

This study has some noted ballistic researchers agreeing on shock.

I tried to find a study done a few years, without success, ago on Cape Buffalo. The study was done to try and determine why some cape Buffalo dropped like a bag of concrete when shot and why some didn't get the message they were dead. The researchers conclusion was that Cape Buffalo immediately going down had their heart valves open in a manner which allowed shock waves to go through the blood stream and impact the animals brain. It was an intriguing study and was not pier reviewed.

 

[pharmseller]

so what is the energy needed then to kill an elk?

Good question.

And do the elk know the answer?

 

[Koda]

Hydrostatic shock

Hydrostatic shock or hydraulic shock describes the observation that a penetrating projectile can produce remote wounding and incapacitating effects in living targets through a hydraulic effect in their liquid-filled tissues, in addition to local effects in tissue caused by direct impact. There...

hunting.fandom.com

This study has some noted ballistic researchers agreeing on shock.

I tried to find a study done a few years, without success, ago on Cape Buffalo. The study was done to try and determine why some cape Buffalo dropped like a bag of concrete when shot and why some didn't get the message they were dead. The researchers conclusion was that Cape Buffalo immediately going down had their heart valves open in a manner which allowed shock waves to go through the blood stream and impact the animals brain. It was an intriguing study and was not pier reviewed.

from what Ive read the jury is still out...

Is Hydrostatic Shock Real?

In a 1942 edition of Popular Mechanics, an article titled “Super Speed Bullets Knock ‘Em Dead” describes a new wunderkind cartridge that launches a .22-caliber projectile an astounding 5,400 feet per second. The bullet maintains a flat trajectory out to 400 yards, but its real benefit—something...

www.themeateater.com

 

[titsonritz]

so does anyone else wonder about foot pounds of energy, FPE. it doesen't make sense to me. cant we come up with a better formula for this. game animals are not made of steel. despite what the magnum lovers say. something along the line of bullet weight bullet construction and pentration value or some other formula. after all FPE is an ancient formula. what 100 years ago or more. seems that bullet makers could calculate pentration value or some other formula.

Yes, its call shot placement and it trumps all other formulas.

 

[pharmseller]

Yes, its call shot placement and it trumps all other formulas.

Mic drop.

 

[Koda]

Good question.

And do the elk know the answer?

I was hoping belshawelk would reply since energy is his position and the 6.5CM retains over 1000fpe at 500 yards whats not to love.

 

[belshawelk]

Boy howdy, don't tell the Scandinavians, they've been killing elk-sized moose for 130 years with the 6.5x55 Swed

I was hoping belshawelk would reply since energy is his position and the 6.5CM retains over 1000fpe at 500 yards whats not to love.

Ok I will bite. 1000 ft lbs is MARGINAL at best. And that distance a 6.5 should never be used for an elk. Too light of a bullet effected by wind and other variances.

my round is 2444 FBE at 500 yards and 2436 velocity with a 200 grain solid. Thats killing power when you made a marginal shot.

 

[Koda]

Ok I will bite. 1000 ft lbs is MARGINAL at best. And that distance a 6.5 should never be used for an elk. Too light of a bullet effected by wind and other variances.

my round is 2444 FBE at 500 yards and 2436 velocity with a 200 grain solid. Thats killing power when you made a marginal shot.

isnt 1000fpe the min for many fish and game elk requirements? In order to discuss the merits of energy we need to establish what the energy required to kill an elk is. What is your opinion on that value?

I dont have a problem with those using heavier ammo but your 200gr solid is just as affected by wind and other variables as the 6.5CM and marginal shots are not kill shots no matter what caliber you use.

 

[TTSX]

If raw power was everything, we'd all use a .50 BMG with 13k at the muzzle. Barnes makes a TSX bullet in .510

 

[TTSX]

isnt 1000fpe the min for many fish and game elk requirements? In order to discuss the merits of energy we need to establish what the energy required to kill an elk is. What is your opinion on that value?

I dont have a problem with those using heavier ammo but your 200gr solid is just as affected by wind and other variables as the 6.5CM and marginal shots are not kill shots no matter what caliber you use.

I don't know, I made a very marginal shot and removed a vertebrae once. That ended up being a pretty dead deer and it didn't exactly run far. Very poor shot

 

[belshawelk]

I am tired. I will end it here. Lots of things meet the minimum. If people are comfortable with that than good for them. I do not hunt or guide them.

Just my opinion as stated above.

My dad shot every deer ( several every year ) in our back yard with a head shot from a .22LR with iron sights. So yeas a 6.5cm will kill an elk, so will a .243, and lots of .25 Cal guns. Doesn't mean you should.

Enjoy hunting is what matters.