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I don't know, I made a very marginal shot and removed a vertebrae once. That ended up being a pretty dead deer and it didn't exactly run far. Very poor shot
this could be subjective, but IMO that was a marginal shot but not a marginal hit... you got lucky. I condider a marginal shot something that doesnt hit a vital. The vertebrea is a clean vital CNS shot regardless of how you landed one there.
 

BigGame

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I hate these conversations and yet here I go.

Yes, energy is a poor tool to use for reliable killing effectiveness. No, we can’t come up with a different cozy formula to answer the question. At least a guideline: bullet selection matters at least as much as cartridge choice.

Which will kill an elk more reliably at 500 yards?
1) A 7-08 shooting a 131g Hammer Hunter (monolithic) at 2,900 fps
2) A 7 Rem Mag shooting a 175g Remington Core-Lokt (soft point lead core) at 2,900 fps

Hints:
1) The 175g Core-Lokt has a better ballistic coefficient (BC) plus more mass, so is reaching the target with a lot more energy
2) The answer to the question is not the one with more energy
 

baker3gun

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This study has some noted ballistic researchers agreeing on shock.

I tried to find a study done a few years, without success, ago on Cape Buffalo. The study was done to try and determine why some cape Buffalo dropped like a bag of concrete when shot and why some didn't get the message they were dead. The researchers conclusion was that Cape Buffalo immediately going down had their heart valves open in a manner which allowed shock waves to go through the blood stream and impact the animals brain. It was an intriguing study and was not pier reviewed.
I have seen this paper, but it was ~20 years ago.
I've talked about the idea with a lot of different people.

I believe it. I've seen so many of both kinds of thoracic hits: DRT and run-offs.

IMO, a hydraulic shock event occurs whether the bullet hits the heart or passes nearby.
If the appropriate valve is open, the brain is more exposed to the shock event than if that valve is closed.
 
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Perfect example of the lethality of the head shot.

Doesn‘t really speak to energy, though.
Were both of those head shots? admit I didnt watch close enough the first time but saw the hit on the first deer when they replayed it slomo. It does speak to the idea of shot placement over energy though... :)
 
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Were both of those head shots? admit I didnt watch close enough the first time but saw the hit on the first deer when they replayed it slomo. It does speak to the idea of shot placement over energy though... :)
second kill shot was too dark for me to see much, but the first kill shot had a cloud of brain mist form right above the head. Most obvious in the slow-mo section.
 
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Ok I will bite. 1000 ft lbs is MARGINAL at best. And that distance a 6.5 should never be used for an elk. Too light of a bullet effected by wind and other variances.

my round is 2444 FBE at 500 yards and 2436 velocity with a 200 grain solid. Thats killing power when you made a marginal shot.
I read somewhere that minimum energy should be twice the animal’s weight.

Moot point, the Mighty -08 load I use carries sufficient energy waaay past my max, and sufficient velocity (which matters more, of course) even farther.

So get the distance, dope the wind, breathe, hold, squeeeeeeze…notch tag.




P
 

Ura-Ki

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Ye, Gads, I hate these discussions,...................

It's like asking which Factory Big Block is quickest, with out factoring everything else with it into the equation, like tires, car weight, weight shift, traction, torque rise, cam velocity, carb jetting, clutch pressure/slip angle, torque converter lock up RPM ( Stall Speed), ignition timing, altitude, air temps, ground temps, tire temps, intake temps, air cleaner, no air cleaner, ram air hood, or cowl induction hood, on and on and on!


Answer, 1970 Challenger R/T ( 3140 pounds dry ) 440 4 barrel, 4 speed, track lock, and a fresh set of 15X12R50 Nitto drag radials! 10.96 137 MPH!
 
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Then you do this:

FDD62690-A613-4C63-AA72-B6E45F3C7F9E.jpeg

And include an uncommonly large, icy cold adult beverage.



P
 
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All these factors matter.
Energy = 1/2 * mass * velocity^2
momentum = mass * velocity
impulse
shot placement
sectional density

The projectile must reach the animal with enough energy which the bullet shape and velocity (or speed as velocity is an instantaneous value which changes during the projectile path).

Shot placement places a vital role in how much energy is needed. A shoulder shot would need more energy than the 'boiler plate'.

On a shoulder shot, the projectile must have enough to penetrate the bone and transfer its energy to the animal destroying organs. Shooting the 'boiler' plate requires less energy but the projectile must have enough energy to reach vitals and not too much energy that it will exit the animal without transferring energy (shock). Sectional density helps with energy transfer. That's why at short distances, large led balls, ie. 50, 54 cal can be devastating. Its heavy, slow and large; Enough to penetrate and dump all its energy.
 

Ura-Ki

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I just enjoy discussing hunting, this forum is really my only outlet for hunting or guns so these "campfire" type of debates are kinda fun sometimes.
Same, just find the info overload a bit,................. Boring!
I'm sure it's valuable info for making a choice of rifle/ammo, but I find if I stick to known variables within certain calibers usually chosen for the tasks, its a good bet it's going to do exactly what I ask of it!
 
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Same, just find the info overload a bit,................. Boring!
I'm sure it's valuable info for making a choice of rifle/ammo, but I find if I stick to known variables within certain calibers usually chosen for the tasks, its a good bet it's going to do exactly what I ask of it!
its never gonna end though cause 50+ years from now the new young kids just cant have the old school rounds that have proven themselves so they ask the same question over again and they get to have their own hunting campfire debates on calibers.
as long as the hunting cycle continues I guess....
 
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Velocity is USELESS without energy.
True enough,, too many hunters/shooters are all enamored with velocity,, they need to read some exploits of the buffalo/bison hunters from the 1870s, when black powder was only providing speeds in the 1200>1500 fps range.
A big bullet going fairly slowly, (by todays standards,) will still go clean thru a bison, (and bust up any bones it hits).
With the higher pressures from smokeless powders, a 500 grain 45-70 slug in the 1500>1600 range will easily dispatch anything on earth.
What velocity gives you is a flatter trajectory.
 
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