FOIAing NFA/ITAR paperwork? Vulcan Warbirds?

[Laughingman]

Hi new user to the forum.. Of recent I've been interested in filing a FOIA (freedom of Information Act) with regards to a NFA paperwork being Filed by Vulcan Warbirds inc (Paul Allens pet project, Happens to have a type 2 SOT). In particular I interested in seeing if the company is effectively creating Post-Sample MGs and DD with no intention to export or sell to LE or Millitary users. A possibly legally dubious and politically embarrassing position for what I understand

Moving on, What specifically (in terms of paperwork) should I be requesting? I assume this requires specialized letter head and format. In addition Vulcan Warbirds likely has ITAR compliance paperwork that might be worth pulling from the state department?

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[CountryGent]

 

[Diamondback]

I suspect they have to have one for the Restoration Shop, but weasel in under the Museum Exception.

My question is, why does Paul Allen who has a private stash of NAZI TERROR WEAPONS to hide behind begrudge the rest of us our having the weapons our ancestors fought Nazism off with?

 

[CamoDeafie]

From what I understand; Vulcan Warbirds Inc is basically a company that buys and restore old war planes, and possible sell them as well; perhaps for completing the warplanes, they need cosmetically correct weaponry?

I see on another page, that Vulcan Warbirds Inc, have several US and NATO aircraft, as well as a few Soviet Russian aircraft/WarPac aircraft.

I have a question though. Why do you want to find out why Vulcan Warbirds Inc have a Class 2 SOT and recently applied for NFA paperwork?

Perhaps there is an agency in WA that sent Paul Allen's company a letter of intent to purchase certain items, and it's less um.. embarassing to be saying its for demonstrating aircraft equipment? Is there an agency who wants to buy the AH-1 Cobra firefighting models and convert them to police work? As the company is for restoring aircraft, it does not seem so far off for them to restore VN era helicopters for police work... (40mm GL chin turret for tear gas, or rubber batons/beanbags, which would fall under DD category as anti-personnel rounds)

 

[Ura-Ki]

What type of "War birds" does Paul Allen have?
The aircraft weapons are treated the same way as other NFA regulated transferable arms and munitions, same as the paperwork for purchasing a tank or field piece! The issues come when there are multiple weapons, i.e. a 6 pack of Browning .50 BMGs, the papers get complex with these types of "Weapons" because they are part of a larger system as well as separate individual Weapons! The Tanks for instance require a separate filing for each gun as well as for the entire system, same as an aircraft, same as a ship!
Good luck with your pursuit, I doubt there is any thing under the rug worth snooping about for!

 

[mkwerx]

Paul Allen has his own private military ala his well armed security force, and he has a collection of aircraft with functional machine guns. But its ok, hes a liberal billionaire - he is entitled to the best protection, and the ability to invade and occupy small nations. We the people, er, peons don't need that kind of security. We have the government to protect us and we'll just hurt ourselves

 

[CamoDeafie]

Pacific Wrecks

Vulcan Warbirds, Inc.
Paul Allen also owns Vulcan Warbirds, Inc. that buys and sells warbirds. There is no guarantee that just because an airframe is currently registered to Vulcan Warbirds that it will become part of the Flying Heritage Collection.

VERY interesting statement.

HOWEVER.. it seems that the main focus of the company, is to acquire and sell WW2 aircraft. Cold War era, WW1, are minor aspects, the most numerous type seems to be WW2 Allied, both US/UK and USSR.

he also owns White Knight 1 and SpaceShip1 as well.

 

[Ura-Ki]

He currently has 7 U.S. WW2 warbirds listed for sale, and a small number of Russian birds! Interestingly, it seems Vulcan is more a brokerage for these birds, a quick search of the FAA data base shows the current registered owners as individual trusts, not Vulcan! I'm wondering, does Mr. Allen actually own any of these?

 

[Diamondback]

Most restorers use DEWATs or non-firing replicas; the airshow circuit uses fakes with propane or LNG torches to simulate "gunfire."

 

[Diamondback]

He currently has 7 U.S. WW2 warbirds listed for sale, and a small number of Russian birds! Interestingly, it seems Vulcan is more a brokerage for these birds, a quick search of the FAA data base shows the current registered owners as individual trusts, not Vulcan! I'm wondering, does Mr. Allen actually own any of these?

Easiest way to transfer 'em... the aircraft is owned by a trust, Vulcan owns the trust, when you buy one you're really buying the trust and all the assets thereof.

 

[Laughingman]

I was under the distinct impression that SOT2 NFA manufactures have to prove they are in the business of actually making arms for LE/Military application and not for example simply because you want a to own machine guns. In Vulcan warbirds case, they appear to be a rich-mans pet project and not really a defense contractor in the traditional sense.

 

[Ura-Ki]

My buddy with his P-38E has the real deal in the nose of his bird, all fully origional and functional, he has to have a aluminum "Plug" installed in all 5 breaches, and the firing pins removed and in a clear display bag with a red flag that he is required to show ground personal before flight, these must be counted and communicated to the air boss before he is allowed to even start the engines! For normal every day flight, he must have the pins in the bag in the cockpit!

 

[Ura-Ki]

1. I was under the distinct impression that SOT2 NFA manufactures have to prove they are in the business of actually making arms for LE/Military application and not for example simply because you want a to own machine guns. In Vulcan warbirds case, they appear to be a rich-mans pet project and not really a defense contractor in the traditional sense.

This may be what @Diamondback was referring to, simulated firearms with the required papers that prove the ATF has inspected them and certified them as non functioning replicas! Go to the Military Vehicle Preservation Society web sight and poke around the adds for companies who specialise in replicating all sorts of weapons from small arms to serious cannon! You will find the vendors sights list what is required!

 

[Laughingman]

interesting... Though throwing 50 bucks away to see what he has would not hurt..

In terms of specific forms and paperwork What should I be asking for? So I don't have to be a noob and ask for " All NFA paperwork DD and MGS for FFL XXXZ between x and y dates...

 

[Diamondback]

NFA paperwork isn't subject to FOIA, it's considered "protected" the same as your 1040.

 

[CamoDeafie]

NFA paperwork isn't subject to FOIA, it's considered "protected" the same as your 1040.

And its actually a good thing too. Otherwise, as has happened before with concealed licensees... the media would attempt to "out" the people who own machine guns, suppressors, SBR/SBSes, AOWs and DDs.

 

[Laughingman]

Looked around some more, Judging by other forums you can FOIA individual NFA firearms histories, An individual on AR15.com apparently successfully got a history of a NFA firearm via serial number though extremely redacted and personal information scrubbed. Alternatively EUC and ITAR compliance paperwork might be easier to acquire...

Edit: aren't SOT-2 Built firearms technically non-taxed items and thus non-protected information?....

 

[Laughingman]

Update: looked around apparently a sizable number of NFA Range-owned MG you see for rental in some states are done on SOT-2 Post 86 conversions (done in house). I imagine Vulcan Warbirds uses a similar strategy to build Mgs and whatever other items they are authorized to make. Despite the legal grey area...

 

[Ura-Ki]

The fire arms owners protection act pretty much guarantes a FOIA request will never leave the ground, the same laws that protect you and me also protect Me. Allen! About the only thing I could see would be a request IF you had a valid S.N. but would likely not contain any worthwhile information!
Sounds like a dry hole to me!

 

[Laughingman]

I was more interested in if he was abusing his Class 7 SOT status for the creation of MG and DD not intended for Export/LE sale. Which upon research is legal grey area but apparently fairly widespread. So my interest in what Vulcan Warbirds is doing is largely ceased. Unless he is actually abusing his power, like making his bodyguards employees of Vulcan Warbirds to allow access to otherwise forbidden weaponry.

Side note: I went to high school with Paul Allens niece, she always had two bodyguards in a armored Mercedes outside, rumored to be Former Navy SEALS or operators of nebulous origin, supposedly had some sort of License to allow them to carry handguns into places otherwise prohibited by law. Never did actually see them with H&K briefcases or bulky clothing indicative of concealed rifles or SMGs. They actually looked pretty bored most of the time (I imagine 99.99% of the time they are 500K a year babysitters)