Float Barrel and Bed Action?

[ZigZagZeke]

I took my S&W 1500 deer rifle to Allison & Carey in Gresham about 3 years ago. A S&W Model 1500 is identical to a Howa 1500 or a Weatherby Vanguard. They're all made in Howa's factory. I told them I wanted the barrel free floated and the action bedded. A couple weeks later they said it was done. I didn't shoot it much until this year. When I did shoot it a couple times, it seemed pretty erratic after the barrel warmed up, but it was fine for the first couple of shots. I never had time to actually delve into what was going on with it, because I was in the middle of exchanging properties and remodeling.

Last month I took the rifle to the range to do some serious troubleshooting. The rifle shoots well for the first 2 or 3 shots. After that, as the barrel warms up it starts walking higher and to the right. If you wait for the barrel to cool between shots you can shoot a 1" group at 100 yds. After 5 or 6 shots within a couple minutes it will be shooting 6" high and 3" right. So, while still at the range I did the dollar bill test to see if something might be interfering with the barrel as it warms up. Here's what I found.

I could only get one bill between the barrel and the stock, and it hung up solid after about 3 inches.

That seemed odd, since the barrel was suppose to have been free floated. When I pulled the stock off of it here's what I found.

The only wood removed was about 3/4" at the very front of the stock. Looks like they poured some epoxy in around the recoil lug and just let it set up. There's about 3" of barrel resting on the epoxy. There's not much epoxy around the action itself, and none anywhere near the rear mounting screw.

This is not anything like what I expected to be paying for. I'd love to hear some opinions on the quality of this job. I don't think this is what we mean when we say "float the barrel and bed the action".

I'm not interested in pursuing this with Allison & Carey. I've come to the conclusion that I do better work than most gunsmiths I've used. So the question becomes what can I do to improve this situation? My inclination is to remove most of that epoxy except for about 1" forward of the recoil lug, then make sure I've got at least .012" clearance for the barrel everywhere else. I'm thinking about bedding the rest of the action (especially around the rear mounting screw), and maybe using a pillar bedding system.

The problem with the pillar bedding systems I've seen is that they require a 9/16" hole for each pillar. Frankly, I don't see that there's enough meat on this delicate stock to drill the mounting holes out to 9/16". I might be able to make my own pillars out of 3/8" OD stainless steel tubing. If I get some with .049" walls it will have an OD of .375" and a ID .277". That should work with the original .250" mounting screws.

So what are your thoughts? Was this a real float and bed job, or did they just fake it? What should I do to remedy the situation? Thanks in advance.

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[No_Regerts]

Its interesting that there appears to be little or no bedding where the receiver ring rests.

 

[ZigZagZeke]

Its interesting that there appears to be little or no bedding where the receiver ring rests.

You mean right behind the recoil lug?

 

[Argonaut]

Looks like a pretty shoddy job from what I can see. I bought the Weatherby version of your rifle for employees one year (as a bonus) they all shot well out of the box but they do have very light barrels suitable for a lightweight carry gun. They are designed to shoot from a cold barrel and can string impacts as the barrel heats up. But the work they did doesn't appear helpful to me.

 

[No_Regerts]

You mean right behind the recoil lug?

Yeah, when I bed an action, Im bedding the action itself and the recoil lug. There seems to be little to no epoxy there, and a lot under the barrel shank. I guess you can raise the barrel by doing that, but I prefer rasping out the barrel channel to get that separation.

 

[ZigZagZeke]

Yeah, when I bed an action, Im bedding the action itself and the recoil lug. There seems to be little to no epoxy there, and a lot under the barrel shank. I guess you can raise the barrel by doing that, but I prefer rasping out the barrel channel to get that separation.

Well, even at that they got less than .004" of separation at most.

 

[No_Regerts]

Well, even at that they got less than .004" of separation at most.

Thats why I wouldn't do it that way. Youd have to guess about how much epoxy you'd have to get under the barrel and create a dam to keep it from squishing out. Then, hope it didnt compress too much. It would have been easier to clear the barrel channel so its floated from the start, then bed the action including the tang. Once it sets, reseal the wood and you're good.

 

[bsa1917hunter]

This could be a case of the wood stock warped a little and now your barrel is touching in some spots. I agree, the work does look a little sloppy. I'm also wondering where you get ".012" as the ultimate freefloat clearance??? I'd re-do the whole thing and use a score high pillar bedding kit specifically for the Howa/weatherby vanguard action:

Score-High Pillar Bedding Kit Howa 1500 Weatherby - MPN: PHA-113

I'd also relieve the barrel channel and glass it too, but use tape on the barrel to set your freefloat clearance. I wouldn't be shy about that clearance either. You are either going to float it or you aren't. When I freefloat my barrels, I freefloat them!!!!! Go .025"-.030" clearance to ensure a good freefloat... Glass bed the whole thing if you want, just be warned, you may have to go back in with a dremel and get rid of secondary recoil lugs that you DO NOT want.... Remember to keep clearance around the action screws. Make sure you are not torquing the action in the bedding compound. You want it to be free from stress when it's curing. Finally, DON'T FORGET THE RELEASE AGENT!!!!!

 

[bsa1917hunter]

Thats why I wouldn't do it that way. Youd have to guess about how much epoxy you'd have to get under the barrel and create a dam to keep it from squishing out. Then, hope it didnt compress too much. It would have been easier to clear the barrel channel so its floated from the start, then bed the action including the tang. Once it sets, reseal the wood and you're good.

Many many ways to skin this cat...

 

[bsa1917hunter]

I've done a lot of tutorials on glass bedding different rifles on a different site I frequent. Wifey is telling me it's bed time though, or I'd post a few pics.... Just be warned, most of my rifles shoot like my big ol African big game rifle after properly glass bedding:



Dang I wish photobucket was still working....

This rifle (.223 rem) is for sale too, it's been properly glass bedded and barrel freefloated:

 

[ZigZagZeke]

I've done a lot of tutorials on glass bedding different rifles on a different site I frequent. Wifey is telling me it's bed time though, or I'd post a few pics.... Just be warned, most of my rifles shoot like my big ol African big game rifle after properly glass bedding:

View attachment 396629

Dang I wish photobucket was still working....

This rifle (.223 rem) is for sale too, it's been properly glass bedded and barrel freefloated:
View attachment 396630

Please do post some pics when you get time. I looked at the reviews for the pillar kit you recommended. There are some good pictures there. The bedding in front of the recoil lug on a good installation appears to run about 1.5 to 1.75 inches toward the muzzle end of the stock. Mine has about 3 inches. I plan to grind that out. I was thinking about using that very pillar kit, but I was a little put off by having to drill through the wall of the rear screw hole with a 9/16" bit. Seems like other people have solved that problem, so I think I'm going to do it that way after all.

I had always been told at least 3 sheets of paper should fit between the barrel and the stock all the way down. That's about .012", but I'm not against going for a wider gap except for cosmetics. Once I get into it I'll decide. Maybe .020" would be a good choice. I can always go back and take a little more out later if I need to.

And a big thanks to this community for all the advice and help so far. Keep it coming.

 

[ZigZagZeke]

This could be a case of the wood stock warped a little and now your barrel is touching in some spots. I agree, the work does look a little sloppy. I'm also wondering where you get ".012" as the ultimate freefloat clearance??? I'd re-do the whole thing and use a score high pillar bedding kit specifically for the Howa/weatherby vanguard action:

Score-High Pillar Bedding Kit Howa 1500 Weatherby - MPN: PHA-113

I'd also relieve the barrel channel and glass it too, but use tape on the barrel to set your freefloat clearance. I wouldn't be shy about that clearance either. You are either going to float it or you aren't. When I freefloat my barrels, I freefloat them!!!!! Go .025"-.030" clearance to ensure a good freefloat... Glass bed the whole thing if you want, just be warned, you may have to go back in with a dremel and get rid of secondary recoil lugs that you DO NOT want.... Remember to keep clearance around the action screws. Make sure you are not torquing the action in the bedding compound. You want it to be free from stress when it's curing. Finally, DON'T FORGET THE RELEASE AGENT!!!!!

Can you explain more about the "secondary recoil lugs that you DO NOT want...."?

 

[ZigZagZeke]

Ordered the pillar bedding kit this morning.
Score-High Pillar Bedding Kit Howa 1500 Weatherby - MPN: PHA-113

Meanwhile, I will work on mounting the Vortex Viper I picked up yesterday at a very good price from @Dee

 

[ZigZagZeke]

OK, Midway is selling this stuff as masking/bedding tape.
3M Bedding Masking Tape
It's pretty expensive compared to regular blue masking tape, which is what I was planning to use a few layers of on the barrel as a gauge for free floating the barrel. What do other folks use?

 

[MountainBear]

PASCO .010" PIPE WRAP TAPE | Brownells

I use this tape. Usually two layers on the barrel, starting about an inch from the receiver going forward.
If I am wanting material in the barrel channel, I use acraglas from Brownells. It flows better. If I am not putting material in the barrel channel, I use marine-tex.

I bed mainly around the lug and the action screw areas. In some actions, I also place a small piece of the pipe tape at the rear tang so the tang doesn't wedge the stock open (such as on mauser or Springfield).

Pillar bedding is only something I use if it's a wood stock. Something that can change dimension or compress. Always make sure there is room around your action screws so the stock doesn't split.

That job doesn't look great, but I guess it's what passes these days.

 

[Ura-Ki]

I use acraglass and release spray for action beding around the lugs and to tighten up action fit. For barrel channel clearence, i rasp and sand it out to get around .015 to .025 clerence from barrel ring to muzzle. Then i seal the wood with marine epoxy and then sand if needed. Im just about to piller bed an 03 Springer with cross bolts and this is how i will do the job! Only diffrence is this one will have a barrel band tension system to use the stock to dampen barrel harmonics old school!

 

[StacattoP]

Their workmanship is very poor I can't do any better but I would never take my gun to Alison Carey ever especially how many times they screwed me over

 

[SparksFly]

Dang. I learned enough from my getting my bow strung and the staff at an archery store almost breaking a limb; from then on I was doing my own mods. Once I get a rifle I will only take it to @Velzey or another gunsmith from this site or have a DIY rifle day.

 

[ZigZagZeke]

PASCO .010" PIPE WRAP TAPE | Brownells

I use this tape. Usually two layers on the barrel, starting about an inch from the receiver going forward.
If I am wanting material in the barrel channel, I use acraglas from Brownells. It flows better. If I am not putting material in the barrel channel, I use marine-tex.

I bed mainly around the lug and the action screw areas. In some actions, I also place a small piece of the pipe tape at the rear tang so the tang doesn't wedge the stock open (such as on mauser or Springfield).

Pillar bedding is only something I use if it's a wood stock. Something that can change dimension or compress. Always make sure there is room around your action screws so the stock doesn't split.

That job doesn't look great, but I guess it's what passes these days.

Thanks! That's good information. This is a wood stock, so I'm going to use pillars.

 

[ZigZagZeke]

I use acraglass and release spray for action beding around the lugs and to tighten up action fit. For barrel channel clearence, i rasp and sand it out to get around .015 to .025 clerence from barrel ring to muzzle. Then i seal the wood with marine epoxy and then sand if needed. Im just about to piller bed an 03 Springer with cross bolts and this is how i will do the job! Only diffrence is this one will have a barrel band tension system to use the stock to dampen barrel harmonics old school!

I'm assuming that the comment above from someone else about not wanting "secondary recoil lugs" means that you don't want anything but the recoil lug bearing on the wooden stock in a rearward direction, as it would transfer force to the wood in areas where it would either deform it or split it.